Malone Meets Marlo - New DVD Set From L&L Publishing

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Postby SteveP » 04/29/09 03:15 PM

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to let you know that I just finished updating L&L's website and the new Malone Meets Marlo set is now available for sale. It's a 6 DVD set. All the details are on the site http://www.llpub.com including a demo video.

I've had a chance to see some of this already and it's an exciting project. First reactions from some of you may be that the Marlo material may be a bit dry, but there are some fantastic routines here and you're not going to find anyone more skilled and entertaining than Bill Malone to perform and teach the material.
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Postby Disparity1 » 06/29/09 03:51 PM

I must say that I'm immensely enjoying these DVDs, but I couldn't find a single thread on them anywhere. Surely I'm not alone?

Anybody else seen them yet?
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 06/29/09 03:53 PM

Yes I have, but you'll have to wait until the September issue of Genii to read my take.

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Postby rkosby » 06/29/09 11:00 PM

I wasn't a Marlo fan until I watched these DVDs. I've watched the first three so far. They're great! I've been practicing several tricks from them. I especially like the Repeater Card to Pocket.

Ray
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Postby Bill Duncan » 06/29/09 11:19 PM

I was a Marlo fan before watching these DVDs. When I first heard about them I was pretty excited.

After watching the entire set two or three times (we're covering them extensively in M-U-M) I'm even more excited about the set. Finally folks who think Marlo's material is "technical" will see what wonderful, commercial stuff he was able to create.

The one handed ace cutting is a (nearly) self working miracle, and the stuff on the memorized deck (which Malone uses and is also on his recent Here I Go Again set) is brilliant: an impossible location with spectator's shuffling the pack and at the end your stack is intact... freakin' sweet.
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Postby rkosby » 06/30/09 01:06 AM

Glad you mentioned the memorized deck stuff Bill. The second one is my favorite.

Ray
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Postby Matt Sedlak » 06/30/09 12:29 PM

I get a kick out of how so many people after watching this DVD set are saying how surprised they are at seeing that Marlo's stuff has commercial value. In the previous, and highly lauded, Bill Malone videos there are tons of Marlo things. Marlo's influence on Bill is easily seen and he has been doing Marlo stuff since his first DVD set.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/30/09 01:39 PM

There is a lot of excellent Marlo material--the trouble has always been that he publish so much that it was literally difficult to find the great stuff. That's why I asked Racherbaumer to write that all-Marlo Magicana earlier this year. Five of the most powerful card tricks you can imagine. I'm sure Malone's DVDs are superb--Bill is very attuned to all that was best about Marlo.
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Postby Magic Newswire » 07/06/09 11:56 AM

There was a lengthy profile of Marlo in the Chicago Tribune today with background provided by Bill Malone & Eugene Burger. READ MORE
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/06/09 01:07 PM

All this tooting about the new Marlo DVDs reminds me of all the hand-wringing about Michael Jackson's death.

Both ignore the major flaws of their subject: Michael Jackson was a reprehensible pedophile and Ed Marlo stole an incredible amount of the material he published.

Don't get your knickers in a twist: I am not in any way equating being a pedophile with stealing card tricks. I'm just pointing out that no one really wants to talk about the dirty laundry.
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Postby Pete McCabe » 07/06/09 01:32 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Don't get your knickers in a twist


Coincidentally that was the name of one of Marlo's versions of twisting the aces.
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Postby Disparity1 » 07/06/09 01:46 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I'm just pointing out that no one really wants to talk about the dirty laundry.


Well, you, Swiss, and a few others have been pounding on that for years. It's not true that no one really wants to talk about the dirty laundry. It's just that some of us don't want to make it our life's focus. Sometimes it's nice to just enjoy a few tricks. It's also all too easy to keep repeating that much of Marlo's published material was stolen and forget that a lot of it wasn't, and a good share of that was pretty ingenious and made for some great magic.

The Malone DVDs make a good effort to step forward, I think. Constantly complaining about the actions of a man dead nearly two decades would instead tend to keep us mired in the past, and I hear many more complaints about Marlo than I do about, say, E-llusionist and Penguin Magic, who have done and continue to do much more to rewrite history than Marlo ever could.
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Postby Mallakite » 07/06/09 01:47 PM

What's the name of the second trick that Malone does in this video and where is it published?

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Postby Magic Newswire » 07/06/09 02:01 PM

Trying to remember who told the story about Marlo stealing from him and publishing it under his name during one of the MagicNewswire interviews...

Oh.. that's right.. Harry Lorayne.. Go back and listen to that one if you want to hear about it first hand. He even made it funny as only Harry can do.
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Postby Jim Maloney » 07/06/09 02:30 PM

Mallakite wrote:What's the name of the second trick that Malone does in this video and where is it published?

Bill Malone


"Think Touch Turn", which Marlo published in 1974 in the New Tops (and can be found in M.I.N.T., Volume 2). It seems to be a favorite of Bill Malone's -- it's on both his first set of DVD's from L&L as well as his current set on Marlo's material.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/06/09 02:34 PM

Every time you hear the terms "Tilt," "Flexible Count," "Convincing Control," "Marlo Card Clip," "Shank Shuffle," or read any of the riffle shuffle manuscripts which all began with Jacob Daley's uncredited work, just to name a few things, scattered thousands upon thousands of times through our literature where it will forever continue to cloud the historical record and give Ed Marlo claim for things he never invented ... well, it's just the gift that keeps on giving. To him. And just to top it off, I'll say it again: Ed Marlo is the biggest thief in the history of card magic.
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Postby Disparity1 » 07/06/09 02:50 PM

Well, I think you're proving my point. I also wouldn't recommend the DVDs to you, since there's a good chance that watching them would ruin your entire week.

I still like them. Quite a bit, actually.

Thanks.
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Postby Joe Mckay » 07/06/09 03:02 PM

I'm not really a Marlo fan (too high a chaff to wheat ratio) - but I am really looking forward to watching these DVDs (I have only seen the first one - the other five are in the post). Also - I am not usually a fan of magic DVDs and I really don't enjoy DVDs that just compile material that has already being put out in books. However - I think these DVDs are a great idea. It can be really difficult trying to track down Marlo's favourite method for each of the effects he tackled and his work is scattered about all over the place (and often tersely described). So - to get a Marlo expert to put out a set of these DVDs is just brilliant. Also - I really appreciate being able to watch these effects since (I am guessing) alot of Marlo's stuff plays better than it reads... Still - I have never being a fan of Marlo's stuff, but I look forward to challenging that point of view when I get to see the rest of the series.

One of the highlights from the first volume was Marlo's 'Bold Substitution' move. In many cases this would make a nice alternative to the Braue Addition. This is great news since I find the Braue move looks quite cosy...
I saw Bill Malone joke about a possible sequel. I would be in favour - with over 4000 published tricks and sleights there is alot more Marlo stuff buried in print...

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/06/09 04:09 PM

Bill Malone is a fantastic magician--one of the most talented card workers alive today. Not only does he have killer presentation and charm, but his technique is impeccable. He can make any trick look good. And he can make Marlo's good tricks look REAL good. But he can also make a bad trick look good. Any great performer can make a bad trick look good. The real value in these DVDs is to find the tricks that YOU can make look good. And who among us is Bill Malone?
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Postby Pete McCabe » 07/06/09 04:29 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Every time you hear the terms "Tilt," "Flexible Count," ...


I've never heard the term Flexible Count. What am I missing?

Also, not to be a nudge, but if you're going to post a list like this, complaining about Marlo theft, I think it would be more productive if you also listed the true originators (and their terms). That would help solve the problem.

I'll start: The move Marlo called "Tilt" was invented by Dai Vernon and called "the Depth Illusion." It's just a crying shame that "tilt" is a much better name than "depth illusion."
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Postby Jim Maloney » 07/06/09 04:51 PM

Marlo also never claimed Tilt, he just gave it a nice name and came up with a bunch of applications for it.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/06/09 05:22 PM

"Marlo also never claimed Tilt."

That's pretty funny Jim. He mentioned Vernon's name once, in the introduction to the Tilt booklet, and did so only reluctantly. Then he proceeded to use the new name he gave the technique dozens (hundreds?) of time over the next few decades and never mentioned Vernon in connection with it again.

Oh, and that booklet in which he gave Vernon credit? He let it go out of print and never reprinted it.
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Postby Disparity1 » 07/06/09 06:22 PM

I'll start: The move Marlo called "Tilt" was invented by Dai Vernon and called "the Depth Illusion." It's just a crying shame that "tilt" is a much better name than "depth illusion."


Even Vernon called the move "Tilt." And I've heard many times that he actually received the basic concept from Burling Hull.

Then he proceeded to use the new name he gave the technique dozens (hundreds?) of time over the next few decades and never mentioned Vernon in connection with it again.


That's a pretty sweeping statement. The first time I met Marlo, the topic of Tilt came up, and one of the first things he said was that Vernon had preceded him on the move. He didn't seem to have any qualms about throwing it out there; he's the one who brought it up.

Oh, and that booklet in which he gave Vernon credit? He let it go out of print and never reprinted it.


Meaning...what, exactly? Shall we ascribe mysterious, possibly sinister, motives to every book you've allowed to go out of print? Or should we just assume it was a decision driven by the market?

I appreciate your comments, Richard, about Bill Malone, and agree. I don't think, though, that a great performer can make a bad trick look good. If that happens, I just assume it wasn't a bad trick to begin with...it's just that nobody before recognized what was good about it. Maybe part of what makes a good performer is having that kind of insight.
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Postby Mike Kamlet » 07/06/09 06:44 PM

There's a great story in the Chicago Tribune about Bill Malone, Marlo and the new DVDs.

There's even a video of Bill performing

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0706-card-magicjul06,0,5974315.story
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/06/09 07:32 PM

The basic concept for The Depth Illusion comes from Edward Victor: there's a photo of it in one of the Magic of the Hands books. The elevation is at the OUTER end of the deck.

And I don't care what Marlo may have told you person to person: I'm writing about his attitude in "The Published Record" which he held so near and dear. It's the public record which people remember, and for many years people have referred to the technique as "Marlo's Tilt."

Are you going to apologize or excuse his attempt to steal the Zarrow shuffle as well? I think that's been documented pretty thoroughly, but if you want to try and explain that away, feel free.
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Postby JordanB » 07/06/09 08:22 PM

I have enjoyed the DVD's very much. I have only had time to watch the first two DVD and got some good insights and material. I bought them on the recommendation of Bob White who told me that they were some of the best DVD's he's seen on the subject.

Between these and Bob's upcoming card DVD I have a ton of watching stuff to keep me busy through Xmas......hopefully till the Larry Jennings book comes out ;)
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Postby Disparity1 » 07/06/09 09:44 PM

Apologies and excuses...hmmm...I make neither, and I'd appreciate your not accusing me of something I'm not doing and then trying to hold me accountable for it. I only suggest that your perspective of Marlo is rather one-dimensional and ignores the totality of the man. And you were certainly happy to solicit and accept material from him for some of your earlier books, so his ethics didn't seem to bother you then. Not as naive now, I guess.

I don't think Marlo tried to steal Zarrow's shuffle. He certainly didn't try to claim it for himself. For right or wrong, he believed the Shank was a different shuffle. His contention was that the unweave of the packets didn't define the Zarrow, because that idea already existed. Therefore, in Marlo's mind, what made a Zarrow a Zarrow was the unweave combined with the covering block. Frank Derrick's shuffle didn't use it, so Marlo felt it was a different technique. It's similar to the "when does life begin" question, in that the two sides of the debate couldn't and can't agree on whether the Zarrow starts with the unweave or the cover. Marlo felt certain that Derrick's shuffle predated Zarrow's, so felt justified in noting that, in his mind, the Zarrow was actually a Shank with an applied block transfer.

I'm not sure I ever agreed with this and have always been quite happy to refer to all variations as Zarrow shuffles. What I do know is that continuing to rage about it decades after the fact and even after all the principal parties have died doesn't really do much to advance magic. It doesn't even make good fodder for movies about magicians any more, since the public now generally accepts that most magicians are overly competitive, snarling, backbiting a-holes who do nothing but bicker over who thought of a trick - to anybody outside magic, surely an absurd notion.

I feel that our history and proper lineage are very important, but some fixations are unhealthy and bad for magic in the long run. If you wish to live up to and even perpetuate this public image of magicians, I'm not here to change your mind. I just asked if anybody here liked the DVDs. If you haven't seen them, then I guess you can't answer.
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Postby JHostler » 07/06/09 09:59 PM

Well, as long as were bickering

Ed Victors Magic of the Hands series was published between 1937 & 1946. Printed woodcut decks first appeared in the 15th century some 500 years earlier. To suggest that, during the course of these 500 years, not a single piddler stumbled upon the depth illusion is ludicrious. At best, we can say that Victor was the first known publisher of something closely related to the modern move/principle. At worst, we can assume he stole it from someone else.

Personally, I believe the move originated with 8-year-old Gretchen Heiden in 1768 her notes regarding the need to maintain a parallel edge having been lost in a tragic 1769 fire.

All of which is to say that Marlo had the same right as anyone else to leverage such a foundational concept.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/06/09 11:38 PM

I give up.
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Postby erdnasephile » 07/07/09 12:51 AM

Mike Kamlet wrote:There's a great story in the Chicago Tribune about Bill Malone, Marlo and the new DVDs.

There's even a video of Bill performing

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0706-card-magicjul06,0,5974315.story


Thanks for the link--what's also interesting is another link on that page where the Trib writer lists the "five best card tricks".

Many would be likely be surprised at the first trick named on the list: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/ ... =obnetwork
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Postby Bill Duncan » 07/07/09 02:09 AM

Odd that more of the kids on The Magic Cafe know Vernon invented "tilt" than know the correct name for "David Blaine's two card monte."

How many of them know the correct origin of the "Benzasi Friction Palm" or the move so common the the three ball trick, I wonder?

I'm just sayin'
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Postby Magic Newswire » 07/07/09 08:54 AM

Mike Kamlet wrote:There's a great story in the Chicago Tribune about Bill Malone, Marlo and the new DVDs.

There's even a video of Bill performing

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0706-card-magicjul06,0,5974315.story


Didn't I post this 16 entries above yours? ;-)
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Postby erdnasephile » 07/07/09 11:00 AM

erdnasephile wrote:Thanks for the link--what's also interesting is another link on that page where the Trib writer lists the "five best card tricks".

Many would be likely be surprised at the first trick named on the list: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/ ... =obnetwork


Dodd just PM'ed me and noted that he had already linked to the five best tricks article on his Magicnewswire site. My bad--all credit to him for digging this up first.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 07/07/09 11:30 AM

John Hostler wrote:
Personally, I believe the move originated with 8-year-old Gretchen Heiden in 1768 her notes regarding the need to maintain a parallel edge having been lost in a tragic 1769 fire.


Bad luck for Gretchen Heiden because it's my ancestor who invented "l'illusion de profondeur" in 1767. Naturally, it was so secretive that he didn't published it BUT show it to all of his friends and they swear to keep the secret.

Ergo Dai Vernon....
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/07/09 12:43 PM

Actually, and ironically, the "Benzais Friction Palm" is Marlo's, who predated Benzais with the sleight. Didn't know that when I did the Roth book.
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Postby Bill Duncan » 07/07/09 01:54 PM

Actually, you're the one who told me.

Sadly, even "well posted" coin experts continue to call it by the name in COINMAGIC. The Kaps thing too...
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Postby Frank Yuen » 07/07/09 02:03 PM

Magic Newswire wrote:
Mike Kamlet wrote:There's a great story in the Chicago Tribune about Bill Malone, Marlo and the new DVDs.

There's even a video of Bill performing

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0706-card-magicjul06,0,5974315.story


Didn't I post this 16 entries above yours? ;-)


Didn't Tom Dobrowolski post this a few minutes before you here? :)

http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... Post197633
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/07/09 05:50 PM

RE "Tilt": For what it's worth, though I don't mention it in the review that will be coming out in the September Genii (space issues), Bill Malone always refers to Tilt as being Vernon's.

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Postby Bob Farmer » 07/07/09 06:25 PM

I've seen Vernon's original "Tilt" notes with his drawings. I believe it was a letter to Ross Bertram. Ask Mr. Ben.
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