Triumph

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Joe Pecore » 03/16/09 09:23 PM

Kent Gunn wrote:Is anybody out there doing Triumph quite like this?
KG

I will be now. Very sly! Great job.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/16/09 09:54 PM

Darn it, should've read Curtis' posting first.

Those who attend the GGG, I will certainly tip the routine there. I don't know what kind of lead time a magazine like Genii has, but I doubt anything will get out before June.

RK, I'll have the wife shoot the explanation this weekend and I'll post it. You have my email address, let me know Acer's youtube user name and we're in their, like swimwear.

KG
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Postby erlandish » 03/16/09 10:11 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Longitudinally split double-face/double-backed cards would allow for the fans and spreads, but if Kent says he ain't usin' no gimmicked cards, we gots to believe him.

Looks great.


A method presented itself pretty quickly based on what's in the video. So, there's at least one way of doing this ungimmicked -- two, if I've guessed incorrectly on the method Kent is actually using.
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Postby Alpen » 03/16/09 10:18 PM

This looks like it uses a bank of faced cards, and if so, I have seen it in print before.

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Postby Alpen » 03/16/09 10:51 PM

I received this from Kent :

Alpen,

Since you're so free with methods, not of your own devising, where have you seen this in print? I assure you, even though I read a lot of magic books, I can keep my own stuff straight from the works of others.

I do hope you weren't intimating I stole this thing.

Let me know.

KG


Just wanted to clarify that I didn't imply that Kent stole anything (hence my use of the words "if so,") I was just trying to contribute to the accuracy of magic literature and proper crediting. I was trying to answer Kent's original question asking if anyone was doing triumph like the one he posted a video of, and the answer is, yes.

In fact, the (excellent) routine using faced cards that I was referring to was published in the November 2007 issue of Genii Magazine, by Jared Kopf, called An Open Display of Triumph.


Thanks,

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Postby Steve Bryant » 03/16/09 11:06 PM

Having recently enjoyed Kent's Fun Shop Cups and Balls in Las Vegas and now this equally offbeat version of Triumph, I find myself enjoying his patter as much as his out of the box methods. Most amusing! I am a fan.
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Postby Steve Hook » 03/16/09 11:59 PM

Alpen: No one asked you to tip anything. Sheesh. What a dork.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/17/09 12:06 AM

Alpen is not a dork, he was simply responding to Kent's question.
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Postby Steve Hook » 03/17/09 12:30 AM

When Kent asked "Is anybody out there doing Triumph quite like this?", he did not also ask, "Would someone please post my method for this version of 'Triumph'?"

Online magic "communities": The best of times and the worst of times.

Re the former: Thanks for posting that link to your routine, Kent.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/17/09 12:31 AM

Alpen and I swapped PMs. He didn't give the whole story. Nor did he need to. I asked a question at the beginning of this thing. He answered it.

After my smarmy pm, he explained his intent, which was good. I wrote back. He and I are now the best of chums.

As the king of being a jerk and regretting it later. (See multiple examples with some quasi-luminaries on this board) I'm adopted a pm 'em and see attitude. The result . . . I have several new friends instead of people who want to kill my sarcastic arse.

I haven't dug up the Genii reference he quotes. My sources were not to be found in the pages of Genii. Hopefully the trick will magically appear there nonetheless.

My sources were:

Goodlette Dodson's "Exhibition Card Fans" and . . . of course,

Vernon's work starting on pp 32 of "Stars of Magic"

Alpen answered my question. The terseness of his response led me astray.

I'm good.
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Postby Alpen » 03/17/09 12:56 AM

Steve,

When someone posts a video, with no explanation, asking questions pertaining to originality, how can anyone answer the question or provide insight without supposing a method? If you have a way of doing this, please let us all know (and before the suggestion of a PM, this question was asked on a public thread, so a public answer isn't out of order.)

My post indicated what I thought was happening ("This looks like...") and in the case that my assumption was correct ("if so...") I tried to answer the original question. I wasn't tipping Kent's method, becuase frankly, using faced cards in a Triumph routine is not original with him. It has been published before, and I was merely pointing that out. If Kent was using an original method that hadn't been published before, and I tipped it on the forum, I'd understand your point. In this case, you don't have one.

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Postby Steve Hook » 03/17/09 04:26 AM

Alpen,

You sound like a Harry Nilsson wannabe.

Steve H

ps: We both have a point to make, we just don't agree. Like I said before, "Sheesh........"
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 03/17/09 07:54 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Alpen is not a dork, he was simply responding to Kent's question.


in public.
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Postby El Mystico » 03/17/09 08:46 AM

I have a vague memory that, a while back, Richard said he was happy for people to post their guesses to how effects were done on this forum. Do I remember right?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/17/09 09:27 AM

What the heck is wrong with responding "in public"? This is a forum for magicians. Please don't give me any baloney about exposure here.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 03/17/09 09:32 AM

El Mystico wrote:I have a vague memory that, a while back, Richard said he was happy for people to post their guesses to how effects were done on this forum. Do I remember right?


Remember the fun about half rimmed coin shells a while ago?

IMHO there's not usually a great need to openly discuss the method for someone's trick online in such plain language as to spoil the fun for others who are watching it and wondering. We have private messages.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/17/09 12:29 PM

No, Jonathan, we discuss method here with NO problem. We are not ruining anyone's fun.
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Postby Tortuga » 03/17/09 04:01 PM

Chris's comment about a hint being in the works of Darwin Ortiz gave me the solution. I actually do the routine similarly to the Ortiz published method, but started out with a routine out of one of Dan Fleshman's books and added the nice fan finesse of Darwin's. That is, if I have the method correct. Mr. Gunn's routine begins with the cards in the 'requisite' situation as they sit on the table at the beginning. He also takes the shuffle to the table in lieu of the in-the-hands faro that I do. The genius of the routine to me is that Kent does exactly what he purports to be doing and nullifies all of the expected ruses. For those who are interested, the reference for the Fleshman publication is, 'The Very Best, Yet!' subtitled, Commercial Close-Up and Stand-Up Magic by Dan Fleshman. The routine is credited to Steve Payton of Kansas City, MO and is on Pp. 13 and is called 'Steve Payton's In Hand Triumph. Reads remarkably similar to Darwin's routine. Dan's book was published in 1990 and Darwin's in 2002, although the routine might be much older.
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Postby Mike Rozek » 03/17/09 04:07 PM

Tortuga, If I'm interpreting the video correctly, Kent's initial setup differs slightly (pun intended) from the Ortiz routine, in a way that makes the routine and initial display much more deceptive.

Incidentally, if I'm correct about the initial state of the deck, there is an odd shift I've been working on for quite a while that brings a shuffled, in-use deck to the starting position for this routine quickly and invisibly. In other words, I think I just found a use for a move that didn't yet have a home:)
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Postby Joe Pecore » 03/17/09 04:40 PM

Alpen wrote: In fact, the (excellent) routine using faced cards that I was referring to was published in the November 2007 issue of Genii Magazine, by Jared Kopf, called An Open Display of Triumph.


Just glanced at that issue, it does look like there could be similarities.
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Postby Tortuga » 03/17/09 05:47 PM

Mike, you are correct. The starting condition of the pack is 'similar' to Ortiz' situation, but different. At least that is if I'm correct in my assumptions. What I like about Kent's work is that it 'amplifies' the strength of the Ortiz display. When I read Ortiz' book I immediately took advantage of the seemingly guileless fan display and incorporated it into the routine that I had learned from Fleshman's book. What Kent has done, I think, is to take that idea and massage it into what you see now, which is about the cleanest, seemingly moveless Triumph that I can recall. He gets a finish that looks to only be possible with gaffs.

I like his routine a lot!

And finally, it can be done all in the hands and still be effective, but the table spread and the spread of the two packets prior to shuffling is just too juicy to not use.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/17/09 08:01 PM

Tortuga,

Actually, with a one-handed display in each hand, it looks better in the hands. It is NOT 100% repeatable (by me) so I shot the version I can do. Hopefully RK will give enough space in Genii to explain both handlings and its antecedant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_oGxY1zgfA
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Postby Jared Kopf » 03/23/09 11:15 PM

Ah, youtube, wonder of wonders . . .

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Postby Brad Henderson » 03/24/09 01:34 AM

Seems to me to be an overhandled version of Jared's Triumph. Watched a video of Jared doing it this weekend. So much cleaner , clearer, and more open. Kent is running way too fast when no one is chasing him.

And Jared's version can be adapted to an in the hands Triumph (which I have developed/used), though for cleanliness and naturalness you cannot beat Jared's original handling.

This isn't even a step sidewise, it's a giant "mother may I" step backwards.

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Postby Steve Hook » 03/24/09 02:51 AM

Brad Henderson wrote:Seems to me to be an overhandled version of Jared's Triumph...
This isn't even a step sidewise, it's a giant "mother may I" step backwards.


And yet, many here stepped forward to express that they enjoyed it, with nary any noxious negativism, young Brad.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 03/24/09 03:58 AM

Steve Hook wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:Seems to me to be an overhandled version of Jared's Triumph...
This isn't even a step sidewise, it's a giant "mother may I" step backwards.


And yet, many here stepped forward to express that they enjoyed it, with nary any noxious negativism, young Brad.



Which is why so much magic remains derivative and hackneyed, Old Steve.
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Postby El Mystico » 03/24/09 05:05 AM

For me, this thread has really brought home the truth of the old saying about hiding stuff in print. Kent's effect fooled me completely, because I'd merely glanced at Jared's handling in the magazine without thinking about it. After seeing Kent's video, I went back to look properly at the write up of Jared's handling. And I wasn't the only one.
mind you, I'll continue with my current handling of this effect - but it was a pleasant diversion.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/24/09 04:06 PM

Brad Henderson wrote:Seems to me to be an overhandled version of Jared's Triumph. Watched a video of Jared doing it this weekend. So much cleaner , clearer, and more open. Kent is running way too fast when no one is chasing him.

And Jared's version can be adapted to an in the hands Triumph (which I have developed/used), though for cleanliness and naturalness you cannot beat Jared's original handling.

This isn't even a step sidewise, it's a giant "mother may I" step backwards.

Brad Henderson


Brad,

Your dismissive comments were mean-spirted. I like that. I hope you have a sense of humor to match your arrogance.

I'm in my fifties, I weigh nearly 300 pounds. I don't ever run. The last person who chased me, I sat on 'em.

I haven't seen Jared's version. I'm sure it's lovely. I haven't seen the write-up in Genii. The entire magic universe does not revolve around the body of work you're familar with.

I've been toying with my version for a few years. I think the basic idea has been around longer than anyone involved in this discussion. (Unless we can get Harry Lorayne to chime in!!)

Precedence not being all that darned important, I will share my source of inspiration. Expert Card Technique . . . the reverses chapter. I'm pretty sure that was published before Jared came up with his version.

Your assumption that one routine, you happened to be familiar with, was my inspiration is presumptuous, to say the least. I'm not terribly well-read when it comes to magic periodicals. Genii, although world-renowned, does have an immense amount of card work in it's storied pages. Nobody is familiar with that entire body of work.

I chose to post the handling I use on YouTube so world-renowned experts, like yourself, could pontificate and show the rest of us poor amatuers how under-educated and mis-informed we all are.

Actually I'm glad you don't like the handling I put on youtube. It re-inforces that differences of opinion are good things. The version you so despise was concocted as a piece of entertainment for magicians. You were not entertained. For you I failed. It was supposed to be funny too. You didn't laugh.

I do realize you're a full-time professional magician Brad. I know you've released some popular effects for the magic community. In the grand scheme of things that may give your opinions some gravis, in your eyes; I would've hoped success allowed you some modesty and the good grace to not be so quick to jump to conclusions. You pontificate where you should simply remain mute.

I have exactly the same failings.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 03/24/09 04:37 PM

Magicians act like little girls. We have that problem here locally. You make a comment about a "thing", and the person associated with that "thing" takes it as a personal affront - like saying they had bad breath or murdered small children.

The rule many follow is that the person who gets the idea into print first (ethically) gets the credit. Submarine sailors aside (inside joke) it ceases to matter how long someone else may have been doing it. The new work will be compared with the one established in the printed record - and by that measure, Kent's trick seems an overhandled version of Jared's Triumph.

I think the tone of some of these posts resulted from the magic lecturer classic ruse: "So, did any of you guys see the switch?" format the thread seemed to take.

Most people just smile and keep their hands in their lap and the magician thinks he fooled everyone with a stripper deck. He didn't. We just didn't care enough to raise our hands.

You asked if someone was doing something similar. The answers is "yes." And, as many have commented on the merits of your handling as it related to others, I feel it reasonable to continue that line of criticism.

You can spend your life learning every handling of every trick out there - or you can choose to invest your time with the best of what is available.

When it comes to Triumph's of this ilk, Jared's routine is cleaner, clearer, and more magical. Kent's has extraneous moves that do nothing but point to the method. If that's what you want - go for it. If you want something that is far more natural yet uses the same concepts, look up Jared's.

Or don't.

Not everyone is a thirsty horse.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/24/09 04:50 PM

It's my turn to curtsey.
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Postby skmayhew » 03/24/09 05:59 PM

I don't understand what Brad is saying.
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Postby Bill Duncan » 03/24/09 09:54 PM

I understand what Brad is saying. He's saying "My friend's trick can beat up your friend's trick."

I don't understand what Jared Kopf is saying.
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Postby NCMarsh » 03/25/09 12:49 AM

This thread started:

Kent Gunn wrote:Is anybody out there doing Triumph quite like this?


Brad answered that

a.) someone is
b.) that someone published it and
c.) to Brad's tastes the published version is stronger
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/25/09 01:09 AM

Mr. Mayhew,

I suspect Mr. Henderson's words appear cryptic to you because he chooses not to write in complete sentences. I found it initially distracting as well. I can only commiserate with you on that point, sorry. Mr. Henderson alludes to some graduate school on his website. Thee and I shall have to conclude he did not major in English.

Mr. Duncan,

Allow me translate. This one I got. Mr. Kopf was saying, "there's some jerk taking credit for my great trick on you tube."

Mr. Kopf, I've already PM'ed you. If you'd be good enough to let me see or read through your write-up I would greatly appreciate it. I suspect by your number of posts here, you can't really be all that bothered. Nonetheless, this old man would like to see how close the two routines are. As I stated in the PM. I would never knowingly claim the work of another person. Also I've not read your version yet. I do look forward to it!

Alpen,

It is not customary to print PMs sent to you in the open forum. You left out all the funny stuff I wrote and posted only the mean stuff. Don't disburse PMs. I hope we're still pals though!


Brad,

No one has ever compared me to a little girl before. How cute! I'm right around 270 pounds, ugly as sin and have a beard. I'm afraid of the little girls you hang out with. Apparently you live in Austin. I always thought the girls in Texas were pretty.

I have bad breath. I drink about two pots of coffee a day. I pushed around nuclear weapons for twenty years. My karma is far worse than a mere killer of children.

I took affront at your original posting because you said:

Seems to me to be a overhandled version of Jared's Triumph. Watched a video of Jared doing it this weekend. So much cleaner, clearer, and more open. Kent is running way too fast when no one is chasing him.

You implied and I certainly inferred that I was directly deriving my handling from your pal's routine. I shared how I thought you were an arrogant lad for assuming everyone's bank of card knowledge somehow mirrored your own. This led you to an incorrect assumption. You never responded. I'm a little hurt. I thought we had a dialogue going. You see, I read your post and respond to each part, in kind. This used be called correspondence.

As for the overhandled crack; You really didn't understand that what I put on youtube was intended to be consumed by magicians. If it went by Harry Lorayne and some of the others who gave the video some minor accolades, perhaps it accomplished what I intended. The only part of that routine, the display right before the shuffle is the only thing I thought was original to me. The rest is all, every single drop of it, in print. It's in print long before Mr. Kopf's publishing date too, by the way.

Brad I realize you're an outstanding card man. You're way better than I'll ever be. I'd just like you to acknowledge that you come across as a very arrogant man. You offend people far more often than you need to. You were offensive in your response to Mr. Bryant. He's a treasure. Why be flippant? Ah . . . you don't care how others see you. You speak the truth. I got it. :)

Now I suspect you're pals with Alpen and Jared. I also guess you are leaping to their defense. For that I give you credit. I too will tilt at windmills in defense of my magic buddies. I try really hard these days not to come off as an arrogant putz. As, you no doubt have already surmised, I often fail.

If anybody thinks what they've come up with for a handling as researched and tweaked as Triumph that is completely original, they're a deluded nutjob. My research staff is still looking for the appropriate issue of Genii. I really am anxious to see the write up of Jared's routine. You have uber-cool video footage of your pal's handling. Thanks for sharing it with us. I'll assume Jared is too cool to openly share his performance. That's certainly up to him.

I didn't need credit for the handling. I'm not amassing a reputation for any nefarious means. I've no DVDs nor books of my work to shill. I do magic because I love it. I will admit the thought of something with my name on it, in Genii, remains an exhilirating prospect. Thanks Brad, for helping to shoot down my dreams!

I still think the credit belongs to the team of Hugard and Braue. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Hey guys. The routine Jared Kopf claims he invented is in Expert Card Technique. He just overhandles the original, written by the masters!

That was offensive, wasn't it? I don't know where Jared got his routine ideas. I haven't read it nor seen it. I don't give two shakes of a lamb's tail if he goes down in history as either the creator of a great Triumph routine or not. I suspect he doesn't either.

I must say you make odd allusions to small children often enough in your replies that I'm worried about you. :/

RK,

Nice curtsey. (I thought it was curtsy. Apparently you've chosen the more archaic spelling: nice!) Oh, and should my routine be adjudged far too close to Mr. Kopf's, I shall understand you not printing it in Genii.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/25/09 01:22 AM

It's time for me yet again to please ask everyone to be calm.

While Brad may think Kent's routine is not as good a handling as Jared's (which I obviously liked a lot because I published it), I still find merit in it and would like to publish it in Genii as well.

I don't want to see any more carrying-on in this thread.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 03/25/09 01:57 AM

Kent,

I implied nothing. You inferred. And if you felt I implied theft, then please know that was not intended. As I wrote, I was comparing your work to a similar routine that was already established in the printed record. (And yes, one that I found superior on multiple levels.)

I have no idea what my reply to "Mr. Bryant" refers to. I think you are mistaken.

As to the display you reference, I would suggest you look at Jared's routine. All I intended with my post was to point people to that reference. Apparently we'd rather talk about it and get defensive than actually look. That's cool.

As to the "secret video," it's no secret. I just can't talk about it.

It seems as if you are taking this personally. This is the "little girl" behavior I refer to. It is endemic to our field and is one of the reasons growth in our art is stunted. At one time, as I understand it, both national fraternal magazines had bylaws which prevented the publication of "controversial" material. (I believe they still stand.) This included critical comments about performances. And so - at every convention - every act killed and a good time was had by all.

This is exactly what magic needs to thrive: brotherhood at the expense of honesty.

You asked a question, and I answered it.

I am sorry I hurt your feelers.

I was talking about your trick. Not you.

And I'm pretty sure most of my sentences were complete. PM me with the ones that weren't. I will rewrite each 5 times and send them back to you.

Brad
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Postby Cugel » 03/25/09 04:16 AM

Brad, Brad, Brad. Stop being disingenuous. It's about the tone and the way you express yourself. It's a trap we all fall into occasionally. Yes, even me, despite that I am well-known for being flawless.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 03/25/09 04:47 AM

Two things:

First
Kent Gunn wrote: I always thought the girls in Texas were pretty.


Quite some years ago my work took me to several states, many cities, and hundreds of grocery stores. There are usually lots of woman in grocery stores. And while I appreciate the beauty of all of them all around this here country, I can say without any hesitation that the most beautiful women Ive seen were in Texas. And they all had the same quality: Natural beauty. Theyd be at the store in their jeans, a tank top (or T-shirt), hair tied up in a ponytail, and no makeup; it looked like they were ready to leave home in five minutes and still look absolutely stunning. Im convinced that the Beach Boys never made it to Texas before they wrote that song about California girlsand Im a native Californian.

Second (and will all due respect for there are many great versions out there): Aint nobody ever going to come up with a version of Triumph better than a simple slop shuffle version. It can be done standing, with no table, and completely surrounded. Real people are just as amazed by it as any other version I have performed or even seen performed. Ive been doing it since high school (thats better than 30 years). It killed then and it kills today.

Say Good Night Dick.

Good Night Dick!

Dustin (not Dick)

(Its a dang shame that word gets censored now. Its such an innocent little word.)
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Postby Cugel » 03/25/09 07:09 AM

Dustin Stinett wrote:
Second (and will all due respect for there are many great versions out there): Aint nobody ever going to come up with a version of Triumph better than a simple slop shuffle version.


[censored].

But ah shore lak yer folksy delivery. Yew lak onea thaym good ol' boys, incha?
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Postby Ian Kendall » 03/25/09 07:17 AM

[censored] back.

The slop shuffle is one of the best versions for real world work. Dustin mentioned the good points, but to a real person the effect is exactly the same - a card is selected, the cards are mixed face up and face down, and then they all right except the selection.

Now, if you are doing a formal show, or just doing tricks for someone at home you may want to go into one of the many table versions, but for a working magician the slop shuffle is hard to beat.

Take care, Ian
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