Triumph

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Kent Gunn » 03/16/09 10:01 AM

Is anybody out there doing Triumph quite like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLH-ctrbQa8

It's probably useless for the laity. At a magic meeting it might get a few stares.

KG
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 03/16/09 10:14 AM

Fooled the h*** out of me! HL.
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Postby David Alexander » 03/16/09 11:36 AM

Beautifully done, Kent.
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Postby Darryl Harris » 03/16/09 11:36 AM

Sweet ...Very Sweet.
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Postby Michael Kamen » 03/16/09 12:09 PM

Rawther.
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Postby El Mystico » 03/16/09 12:31 PM

I could be wrong, but i think Finley got there first with this method in the 1920s. As did UF Grant in the 40s.
But, yes, it could well fool tthose familar with the original. (And, from the comments above, clearly has!)
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/16/09 12:35 PM

EM,

I'm not familar with the Finley reference. I do know I'm not using any gaffs. If that's as clear as mud, at least it covers some ground.

I'm not averse to gaffs, I just can't be bothered to keep track of them.
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Postby El Mystico » 03/16/09 12:59 PM

then - you fooled me too!
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Postby Tortuga » 03/16/09 02:02 PM

Add my name to the list of those fooled. At first I was thinking that it used double backers but the spread at the end clearly shows that to not be the case. Also your statement that there are no gaffs involved. So I am clueless. Nice to be fooled now and again.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 03/16/09 02:42 PM

A (large) hint can be found in the work of Darwin Ortiz. (though not sure how much of the idea pre-dated Darwin's take)
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/16/09 04:13 PM

Now Chris, you're cheating. We've had this discussion before in another place.

I do like the breadth of your hint though!!!! That ain't helpin' anybody.

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Postby AJM » 03/16/09 06:29 PM

<------
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Postby Steve Hook » 03/16/09 07:29 PM

Very nice, Kent! Love the touches, especially the fan half-way through.

It's like you constructed it ala Agatha Christie working backwards, one part negating the previous, until the whole thing is seamless.

One question: Did you already have that cut at the end or did you come up with it to specifically accomplish what it does for this routine?

Props, dude. - Steve H
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/16/09 07:54 PM

Kent, you should definitely let me publish it in Genii. :)

Re the earlier comments about gimmicked cards, I've heard that Grant's "Cheek to Cheek" was reinvention of an earlier method of Arthur Finley's. I can't remember if it uses double-faced or double-backed cards. Must be double-backed.

Longitudinally split double-face/double-backed cards would allow for the fans and spreads, but if Kent says he ain't usin' no gimmicked cards, we gots to believe him.

Looks great.
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Postby Curtis Kam » 03/16/09 08:10 PM

Hey, hold on there--is there any truth to the rumor that the secret to this devious Triumph will only be revealed to the next ten people who sign up for the Golden Gate Gathering?
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Postby Leonard Hevia » 03/16/09 08:26 PM

That was beautiful Kent. I can see a Kent Gunn DVD out there--with a tutorial on the Free Turn Pass...

Master Kam--you're disciples eagerly await for Palms of Steel 1 on disc...
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/16/09 08:38 PM

Richard,

If you'd like to have that for Genii, nothing on earth would make me prouder.

If nothing else it would quell those who think it uses gaffs.

Kent
Last edited by Kent Gunn on 03/16/09 08:41 PM, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: Genii??
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Postby Tom Frame » 03/16/09 08:38 PM

Wow! That's terrific, Kent!
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/16/09 09:02 PM

Great, Kent! Make a flick of the explanation. I can have Acer download it from a site you post it to, or you can send a DVD. Either way.
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Postby Chris Aguilar » 03/16/09 09:03 PM

Kent Gunn wrote:Now Chris, you're cheating. We've had this discussion before in another place.

I do like the breadth of your hint though!!!! That ain't helpin' anybody.

Nation, nation, nation !!!
Nebulous hints are best I think (here at least). Let people enjoy being fooled until it can get published in Genii. :)
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Postby Joe Pecore » 03/16/09 09:23 PM

Kent Gunn wrote:Is anybody out there doing Triumph quite like this?
KG

I will be now. Very sly! Great job.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/16/09 09:54 PM

Darn it, should've read Curtis' posting first.

Those who attend the GGG, I will certainly tip the routine there. I don't know what kind of lead time a magazine like Genii has, but I doubt anything will get out before June.

RK, I'll have the wife shoot the explanation this weekend and I'll post it. You have my email address, let me know Acer's youtube user name and we're in their, like swimwear.

KG
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Postby erlandish » 03/16/09 10:11 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Longitudinally split double-face/double-backed cards would allow for the fans and spreads, but if Kent says he ain't usin' no gimmicked cards, we gots to believe him.

Looks great.


A method presented itself pretty quickly based on what's in the video. So, there's at least one way of doing this ungimmicked -- two, if I've guessed incorrectly on the method Kent is actually using.
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Postby Alpen » 03/16/09 10:18 PM

This looks like it uses a bank of faced cards, and if so, I have seen it in print before.

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Postby Alpen » 03/16/09 10:51 PM

I received this from Kent :

Alpen,

Since you're so free with methods, not of your own devising, where have you seen this in print? I assure you, even though I read a lot of magic books, I can keep my own stuff straight from the works of others.

I do hope you weren't intimating I stole this thing.

Let me know.

KG


Just wanted to clarify that I didn't imply that Kent stole anything (hence my use of the words "if so,") I was just trying to contribute to the accuracy of magic literature and proper crediting. I was trying to answer Kent's original question asking if anyone was doing triumph like the one he posted a video of, and the answer is, yes.

In fact, the (excellent) routine using faced cards that I was referring to was published in the November 2007 issue of Genii Magazine, by Jared Kopf, called An Open Display of Triumph.


Thanks,

Alpen
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Postby Steve Bryant » 03/16/09 11:06 PM

Having recently enjoyed Kent's Fun Shop Cups and Balls in Las Vegas and now this equally offbeat version of Triumph, I find myself enjoying his patter as much as his out of the box methods. Most amusing! I am a fan.
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Postby Steve Hook » 03/16/09 11:59 PM

Alpen: No one asked you to tip anything. Sheesh. What a dork.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/17/09 12:06 AM

Alpen is not a dork, he was simply responding to Kent's question.
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Postby Steve Hook » 03/17/09 12:30 AM

When Kent asked "Is anybody out there doing Triumph quite like this?", he did not also ask, "Would someone please post my method for this version of 'Triumph'?"

Online magic "communities": The best of times and the worst of times.

Re the former: Thanks for posting that link to your routine, Kent.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 03/17/09 12:31 AM

Alpen and I swapped PMs. He didn't give the whole story. Nor did he need to. I asked a question at the beginning of this thing. He answered it.

After my smarmy pm, he explained his intent, which was good. I wrote back. He and I are now the best of chums.

As the king of being a jerk and regretting it later. (See multiple examples with some quasi-luminaries on this board) I'm adopted a pm 'em and see attitude. The result . . . I have several new friends instead of people who want to kill my sarcastic arse.

I haven't dug up the Genii reference he quotes. My sources were not to be found in the pages of Genii. Hopefully the trick will magically appear there nonetheless.

My sources were:

Goodlette Dodson's "Exhibition Card Fans" and . . . of course,

Vernon's work starting on pp 32 of "Stars of Magic"

Alpen answered my question. The terseness of his response led me astray.

I'm good.
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Postby Alpen » 03/17/09 12:56 AM

Steve,

When someone posts a video, with no explanation, asking questions pertaining to originality, how can anyone answer the question or provide insight without supposing a method? If you have a way of doing this, please let us all know (and before the suggestion of a PM, this question was asked on a public thread, so a public answer isn't out of order.)

My post indicated what I thought was happening ("This looks like...") and in the case that my assumption was correct ("if so...") I tried to answer the original question. I wasn't tipping Kent's method, becuase frankly, using faced cards in a Triumph routine is not original with him. It has been published before, and I was merely pointing that out. If Kent was using an original method that hadn't been published before, and I tipped it on the forum, I'd understand your point. In this case, you don't have one.

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Postby Steve Hook » 03/17/09 04:26 AM

Alpen,

You sound like a Harry Nilsson wannabe.

Steve H

ps: We both have a point to make, we just don't agree. Like I said before, "Sheesh........"
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 03/17/09 07:54 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Alpen is not a dork, he was simply responding to Kent's question.


in public.
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Postby El Mystico » 03/17/09 08:46 AM

I have a vague memory that, a while back, Richard said he was happy for people to post their guesses to how effects were done on this forum. Do I remember right?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/17/09 09:27 AM

What the heck is wrong with responding "in public"? This is a forum for magicians. Please don't give me any baloney about exposure here.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 03/17/09 09:32 AM

El Mystico wrote:I have a vague memory that, a while back, Richard said he was happy for people to post their guesses to how effects were done on this forum. Do I remember right?


Remember the fun about half rimmed coin shells a while ago?

IMHO there's not usually a great need to openly discuss the method for someone's trick online in such plain language as to spoil the fun for others who are watching it and wondering. We have private messages.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 03/17/09 12:29 PM

No, Jonathan, we discuss method here with NO problem. We are not ruining anyone's fun.
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Postby Tortuga » 03/17/09 04:01 PM

Chris's comment about a hint being in the works of Darwin Ortiz gave me the solution. I actually do the routine similarly to the Ortiz published method, but started out with a routine out of one of Dan Fleshman's books and added the nice fan finesse of Darwin's. That is, if I have the method correct. Mr. Gunn's routine begins with the cards in the 'requisite' situation as they sit on the table at the beginning. He also takes the shuffle to the table in lieu of the in-the-hands faro that I do. The genius of the routine to me is that Kent does exactly what he purports to be doing and nullifies all of the expected ruses. For those who are interested, the reference for the Fleshman publication is, 'The Very Best, Yet!' subtitled, Commercial Close-Up and Stand-Up Magic by Dan Fleshman. The routine is credited to Steve Payton of Kansas City, MO and is on Pp. 13 and is called 'Steve Payton's In Hand Triumph. Reads remarkably similar to Darwin's routine. Dan's book was published in 1990 and Darwin's in 2002, although the routine might be much older.
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Postby Mike Rozek » 03/17/09 04:07 PM

Tortuga, If I'm interpreting the video correctly, Kent's initial setup differs slightly (pun intended) from the Ortiz routine, in a way that makes the routine and initial display much more deceptive.

Incidentally, if I'm correct about the initial state of the deck, there is an odd shift I've been working on for quite a while that brings a shuffled, in-use deck to the starting position for this routine quickly and invisibly. In other words, I think I just found a use for a move that didn't yet have a home:)
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Postby Joe Pecore » 03/17/09 04:40 PM

Alpen wrote: In fact, the (excellent) routine using faced cards that I was referring to was published in the November 2007 issue of Genii Magazine, by Jared Kopf, called An Open Display of Triumph.


Just glanced at that issue, it does look like there could be similarities.
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