Alex Ramon and the elephants

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000
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Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby 000 » March 9th, 2009, 12:01 pm

I much enjoyed the article by Jim Steinmeyer on Alex Ramon and the illusions going to be used by Ringing Brothers Circus. And of course that 10 million people are going to see some quality magic.

I am dismayed, however, that in this day and age tigers and elephants still constitute a major attraction. Pity these poor beasts.

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 9th, 2009, 12:10 pm

000 what would you like to see in a circus?

*
I can see people doing dumb things while dressed funny on network TV primetime - so live unusual animals on parade is kind of a treat here.

And yes I'm aware of Britney's tour - let's leave that to its own thread if folks want.

000
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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby 000 » March 11th, 2009, 10:04 am

I would like to see things go full circle..........I dont think there are many that would argue the fact that animals such as elephants and tigers don't actually belong in a place like a circus.

I remember reading in the book about Houdini,Vanishing the Elephant, that the Colusseum where Houdini performed this illusion had space for some 5000 performers,where entire horse regiments enacted scenes.

So in answer to your question :white horses from Arabia is what I would like to see.

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby hugmagic » April 22nd, 2009, 10:34 pm

I think that Elephants are fine in the circus as many other animals. They are very well treated often better than the human performers.

I wish that people understood the real world of circus and the love the handlers have for their animals instead of listening to the PETA idiots who know nothing about really is going on.

I took my grandkids this past summer to a tent circus while they still could see elephants and other animals performing. I shudder to think when those days are not more.

If you want to read the real work on elephants, look up the Buckles Blog maintained by Bill Woodcock on of the top elephant trainers in the world (2rd generation).

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Joe Naud
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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Joe Naud » April 22nd, 2009, 10:59 pm

My father was a chimpanzee trainer. He worked small circus up and down the east coast. I could not agree more regarding the love that the trainers have for their animals. When my father passed away one of his chimps was cremated with him as this particular chimp was too big for anyone else to take care of. The running joke amoung the kids is we all got some of their ashes, who knows if we got chimp or dad? Having just taken my eight year old to eh LA Zoo I can promise you the lives of these performers if far beyond the poor animals in the zoo. I'm not sure if I will ever be able to go back to a zoo again.
Peace, Joe

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Bob Taxin » April 23rd, 2009, 6:14 pm

I spent a year working as a clown six days a week, on the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Circus, way back in the '70s. In my limited experience, the animals were treated well and I never saw any being abused. This is not to say that there weren't morons who treated them badly; I just never saw it nor did anyone report that to me. The trainers are with their animals all day and the performance is just one brief part of the time they spend together. Also, the circus has invested an enormous amount of money in these animals and so have great motivation to take care of them. You could argue that just being part of the circus constitutes abuse, but I don't agree.
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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Dale Shrimpton » April 24th, 2009, 8:49 am

well, here in the u.k, animal circuses have been as good as banned for quite a few years now.
i recall the thrill of sitting close to the ringside, as elephants, camels,chimps, lions, tigers, and bears... (oh my), plus aligators, horses, and performing pigs walked around the ring.

maybe some of the animals were kept in slightly cramped cages prior to the show, but none of them looked maltreated.
and, you can bet your bottom dollar that if any of them wanted to fight back, they would.. and they would win!


I cant say i enjoy human circus half as much as those shows..

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby mrgoat » April 24th, 2009, 9:48 am

Dale Shrimpton wrote:well, here in the u.k, animal circuses have been as good as banned for quite a few years now.
i recall the thrill of sitting close to the ringside, as elephants, camels,chimps, lions, tigers, and bears... (oh my), plus aligators, horses, and performing pigs walked around the ring.

maybe some of the animals were kept in slightly cramped cages prior to the show, but none of them looked maltreated.
and, you can bet your bottom dollar that if any of them wanted to fight back, they would.. and they would win!


Really?

Just found this quote which sums up how I feel about it really:

The idea that it is funny to see wild animals coerced into acting like clumsy humans, or thrilling to see powerful beasts reduced to cringing cowards by a whipcracking trainer is primitive and medieval. It stems from the old idea that we are superior to other species and have the right to hold dominion over them."
Dr. Desmond Morris, anthropologist, animal behaviorist, author

And this is alarming

Behind the scenes, elephant trainer Tim Frisco instructs would-be trainers how to dominate elephants and make them perform circus tricks. Sink that hook into em. When you hear that screaming, then you know you got their attention. An elephant trumpets in agony as Friscos bullhook, with its sharp metal hook and spiked end, tears through her sensitive skin. Frisco, a Carson & Barnes elephant trainer, learned the trade from his father, a former trainer for Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus.

Don't click if you are upset by animals being tortured:

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp ... arnes_long

I know it's PETA, who are mainly mental cases, but the video doesn't appear to be faked.

I remember the circus coming to my town when I was a child and wanting to go. My parents took me and showed me how the animals were kept, how small the cages were, how horrible the whole thing was and I cried and decided not going was a much better idea.

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby mrgoat » April 24th, 2009, 9:51 am

hugmagic wrote:I think that Elephants are fine in the circus as many other animals.


Why do you think it's acceptable to take such a beautiful animal from it's natural habitat and make it do tricks to entertain humans?

Haven't we evolved from the idea that animals are on earth to entertain mankind?

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 24th, 2009, 10:02 am

Perhaps after people have "evolved" past the idea that it's okay to harm eachother, especially using fiction as pretense to affect the condition of the real.

Until then I'd rather the cruel and unjust turn their attentions to less sentient creatures.

Do you understand why Louis had the nobles daughters taught ballet and the sons taught the nomenclature for animal groups?

Okay, what's new?
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Reason: what happens when the willfully ignorant meet the arrogantly informed?

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Peter Snow » May 15th, 2010, 4:42 pm

I witnessed with my own eyes Louis Knie (of Circus Knie fame) "training" a baby elephant. The elephant was covered in blood. That was thirty five years ago and the memory still haunts me.
Actually, as I am typing this right now my hands are trembling.
Peter snow

000
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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby 000 » July 14th, 2010, 8:12 am

Pity the lion handlers from days gone by.

Hanussen, 'Hitlers Jewish Clairvoyant', when joining the circus enquired why they only had male lions. Between jacking them of before the show, together with the use of a whip, they could control these beasts, he was told. Showtime anyone?

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 14th, 2010, 8:28 am

000 wrote:Pity the lion handlers from days gone by....Between jacking them of before the show, together with the use of a whip, they could control these beasts, he was told. Showtime anyone?


Showtime or HBO - not sure which would do that in a series. My guess is Showtime since they have Dexter but if it's only going to be referenced in dialog HBO could as well as they did in the Sopranos.

@Peter Snow - have a look at Peter Watts story "Bulk Food". He posted it online. Its about other intelligent mammals used for entertainment but has an insightful perspective.

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Joe Naud » July 14th, 2010, 10:42 am

My family has been in circus for most of the last thirty years and there are trainers that use excessive force and trainers that don't. What do you think gets the publicity. Like all arguments it is easy to paint with very broad strokes. While my experience has been mostly with primates, I can promise you that that these animals were as important to my father and sister as I was to them and the loss of one of them was as painful as losing a child. My father was cremated with one of his chimps because he knew that the fate of this friend at his age and strength would keep him from finding a home that was a suitable as he had with my father. Both my father and sister did thousands of hours of lectures at elementary schools with these animals to educate the kids on the importance of keeping them wild and keeping places in the wild for them to live. It is easy to have very strong opinions on both sides of this argument but to paint all animal trainers as violent exploiters is simply not the case.
Peace, Joe

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Magic Newswire » July 31st, 2010, 4:06 pm

In that this is a "magic" site, I thought that some readers here might like to know that I have been told to watch for a follow-up piece with Alex & JIm to appear in an upcoming issue of Genii!

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 31st, 2010, 4:20 pm

Cover story of the September issue.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Re: Alex Ramon and the elephants

Postby Magic Newswire » July 31st, 2010, 5:30 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Cover story of the September issue.


Outstanding!!


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