Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/13/09 07:11 PM

Pete, doing a poker deal to demonstrate the theme is probably the way to get them wanting to play along and volunteer. There's no need to deal the good hand to the dealer, right? ;)
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Postby Jeff Haas » 04/13/09 07:38 PM

Pete McCabe wrote:Or just do a poker deal, and then you "start the betting" by putting up a watch which, it turns out, belongs to one of the spectators.


Paging Bob Farmer...
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/13/09 07:41 PM

Jon - Did you ever see Jack Pyle work? He worked close up at a table with people all around him. He had a blue table-cloth that he put on the table instead of a close up mat.

Then he would start off doing card tricks and then he did poker and bridge deals.

The thing about Jack Pyle's act that was so different at the time "was" that he would deal - throw - cards and let one or two people in the audience be his partners and he would deal "them" the winning hand.

Plus he would also do several deal's where he would get the winning hand - and have the audience member cut the cards and lose the hand into the deck. The hand that was dealt - was often a royal flush in spades. How Jack got the hand was - when he was ready to do poker deals he would spread the deck face up on the table and say - "Lets play do it yourself poker".

Then he would let the helper take out any hand. Often it was a royal flush or the four aces. Then he would do most of the poker routines and this hand was shuffled and cut - the helper cut the cards after every time the hand was put back into the deck and the deck was shuffled.

Then he would do a poker deal using the bottom deal - hand switch - or center deal and then he would let his helper get the winning hand. The same hand that was picked out when he said "Do it yourself poker".

The "same hand getting lost in the deck and then the helper getting it again became a running gag.

He would climax the routine with his punch bridge deal.

When I am performing - I use some of the same style and I like bringing the audience in - and have them cut the deck after every shuffle - I have watched him do that for years and I think that letting them cut the deck is very strong.

However don't confuse want I am telling you about Jack Pyle's performance and me performing with the video's I have posted.

The video's I have posted - "are not a performance"! They are just short demo's of "what is possible with the Vernon two shuffle triumph shuffle.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/13/09 07:51 PM

Sorry I did not get to see Jack Pyle perform.
What you described reads well as a way to show skill with cards while entertaining.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/15/09 09:32 AM

Jack Pyle was great - however often when he performed for magicians he did not go over as strong. Because a lot of magicians did not get what he was doing or why. I have found that magicians don't often understand the card shark magician and their performance.

I saw a show and viewed a video tape of a show Jack Pyle and Jimmy Cards Molinari did in a church basement that was a block away from Magic INC. Jay Marshall set up the gig and it was an all afternoon magic social event sponsored by magic Inc.

Well - Jack Pyle went over good - but he did not go over as strong for the magicians as Jimmy Cards Molinari did. The reason I think the why - was that Jimmy was doing a lot of cutting edge card work at the time. And Jack was doing the card shark stuff - to a lot of people that did not "play" cards or bridge.

Having seen Jack Pyle work in front of "his" audience - people that played cards and bridge - there was a difference in the audience - there are some magicians that want to see magic but found the card shark stuff - just interesting.

And that brings me back to my video's. I have to say that they are not a performance. Why? I have been working on this stuff for about 15 years - but some of it is not in my act. In my opinion it is only by doing this in shows almost nightly that a performer gets the "perfection" that they want.

I remember a story about Charlie Miller a "Fatherly remembrance" that my Dad told me. He said that Charlie Miller did a show or a lecture in England. Magicians there got excited about seeing his card shark stuff and other card work.

When he got there he did the rice bowls - Chinese sticks and his act that he did for the lay audience. The magicians in England were disappointed as the story goes. Well in my dads opinion the reason Charlie Miller did his act instead of the card shark stuff that he did well in session was - the card shark stuff was "not" honed to perfection like his act was.

It is only by doing the stuff (in my opinion) in shows over time does this kind of stuff get that professional edge or touch. And in my opinion magicians get "rusty" if they are not working and of course they get old.

I have other opinion's as well because I do not think that magic like my video looks good on video. In live shows you can talk to an audience and cover and shade better - than you can with just a camera that is spot on the hands.

But just as I said before - it is not about how well I do it in the short video demo's - it is about "what I am doing" and what "is" accomplished with the two shuffle "triumph shuffle"... And the problems of over coming the stacking deep issues using a culling and stacking method using the riffle shuffle.

Just my opinion.
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Postby El Mystico » 04/15/09 01:08 PM

That's true about Charlie Miller doing the rice bowls etc in his UK lecture. I know of one magician who came down from Scotland for the lecture and cried on the journey back.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/15/09 01:12 PM

Would you elaborate on that?
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Postby El Mystico » 04/15/09 01:32 PM

er...don't know what info you want! this guy was a young card man. He came hoping to see charlie's card work, but got the rice bowls. This chap had taken time off work, and spent a lot of money on the train fare and was bitterly disappointed.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/15/09 02:24 PM

you're saying Charlie Miller lectured and only did the rice bowls?
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Postby David Alexander » 04/15/09 02:31 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:you're saying Charlie Miller lectured and only did the rice bowls?


Jon, read what Glenn posted above. Quit being deliberately obtuse.

Visiting Charlie was always fun. He'd sit dealing cards....tops, bottoms, centers, seconds. If someone asked to "see" his second he'd do some horrible thing and they were disappointed. Charlie would explain that they wanted to "see" his second. Properly done, they wouldn't be able to see anything, so he did it badly do they could see it. I understand he did that with others, too.

He was quite a character.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/15/09 02:43 PM

I remember a story about Charlie Miller a "Fatherly remembrance" that my Dad told me. He said that Charlie Miller did a show or a lecture in England. Magicians there got excited about seeing his card shark stuff and other card work.

When he got there he did the rice bowls - Chinese sticks and his act that he did for the lay audience. The magicians in England were disappointed as the story goes. Well in my dads opinion the reason Charlie Miller did his act instead of the card shark stuff that he did well in session was - the card shark stuff was "not" honed to perfection like his act was.



Jon, read what Glenn posted above. Quit being deliberately obtuse.


Ah, found the former. Kinda sad about the latter - but it's tough to catch all the signal when there's also lots of noise.

Perhaps it takes a magician to confuse tolerance with the right to give commands.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/16/09 07:23 PM

In this thread here on the Genii forum http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... 18&fpart=3

Nikodemus Siivola said...

Finally, because I cannot contain this any longer: A CULL? After the multiple shift there is no need to cull anything, is there?


The subject matter was this video...

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/Glennb ... lstack.wmv

Although I do agree that a shift like Marlo's simple shift wouldn't be used at the card table. And at the card table like in a show the moves "would be adapted" to the performing situation just as a card shark would adapt their moves to the protocol - rules - of the game and place that they happen to be playing cards in.

I used the simple shift to get the aces into the slug - in the video - because I thought at the time that just putting the aces "together" into the deck to make the slug - was a little boring.

But in magic here is when I "would do" a cull after a shift. As with Marlo's simple shift there is a key card and the idea is to put the aces into the deck. They end up together next to a key card so the magician can show face cards - and show the aces not on the top - spot the key card - get a break and then control the aces - or selected cards to the top of the deck.

I have found that using a cull to do the job - there is no need for a key card. All is needed is to shuffle the deck once after the simple shift once you table the deck.

Spot the aces and cull them to the top in one fast move. Also when using other shifts a cull can be used as an out if the shift is blown - or the deck the magician is using is dirty and the cards stick together making the magician miss one or two aces in the shift.

The cull can clean up those little performance problems that a magician might have when doing a multiple shift.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/18/09 12:28 PM

David Alexander wrote: Visiting Charlie was always fun. He'd sit dealing cards....tops, bottoms, centers, seconds. If someone asked to "see" his second he'd do some horrible thing and they were disappointed. Charlie would explain that they wanted to "see" his second. Properly done, they wouldn't be able to see anything, so he did it badly do they could see it. I understand he did that with others, too.

He was quite a character.


I never hand the pleasure or honor of meeting Charlie Miller however I did talk to him on the phone twice - and my Dad met and knew him (A Fatherly Remembrance story). The story goes that Charlie Miller was looking for stand up material and came into and watched my Dad do his night club show in Texas - several times.

My Dad was also a student of Erdnase so I think that he and Charlie Miller must have gotten along quite well.

However If I may add - most technical magic in cards like second dealing - centers - bottom's have tells. I knew and learned some stuff from Ed Marlo - and his second deal - like all second deals had a tell. I do not say this to say that Ed Marlo did not do his second deal "flawlessly" however in my opinion like may technical moves in card magic - "Flawlessly" is an opinion. And if you watch the Cardician DVD you may spot the tell.

As far as my video's My triumph cull stack - was viewed 350 times this month.

My Triple duke triumph video - was viewed - 113 times this month.

And the new video of me stacking and culling on the fly using the two shuffle Vernon Triumph shuffle was downloaded or viewed 65 times so far this month.

However if I may add - I make no claim as to doing the moves "flawlessly" for magicians. However to do them "flawlessly" for magicians - was not the overall goal of putting up the video's in the first place.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 04/18/09 01:04 PM

Glenn,

The phrase is "fatherly recollection."

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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/19/09 03:17 PM

Sorry Dustin I find this kind of thing rather childish and not worth my time to respond.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/20/09 10:20 AM

To paraphase Jeremy Hillary Boob, PhD:
Sisyphus, Syphilis, Freud
This False Shuffle we try to avoid
When meaning is lost on those we accost
Neizche says it all gets destroyed.

*

The growing pains in our craft are interesting. We all grow older. Growing wiser hurts.

I hope those who have just started in our craft get the idea that we are going toward a more scholarly approach and manage to forgive the thrashings of those who conflate nostalgia with relevance and personal meaning with historical value.

Can meaning be sanitized for public discourse?
Can secrets coexist with scholarly history in publication?
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Reason: What is the price of knowlege?
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 04/20/09 02:45 PM

Obviously I need to remind Glenn that he was quoting me from a previous post in a previous thread and since the phrase he meant to quote was "fatherly recollection" (and he used "fatherly remembrance"), I simply was correcting him. There was NO other motivation beyond that.

That--I hope--is the end of it.

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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/23/09 08:03 AM

Cugel, Denis Behr, Eoin O'Hare, El Mystico, mrgoat, Silly Walter, Nikodemus Siivola, Dustin Stinett and anyone.

In the spirit of good fun - I would love to see video of any of you guys stacking and culling together on the fly - or stacking and culling four aces from a slug - or stacking and culling from a slug three different hands for a five handed game like I do in my triple duke triumph video - using any kind of table riffle shuffle technique that is not the triumph shuffle as I use in my video.

Can you do these three different things as I do in my three video's using some other kind of riffle shuffle technique? Also using an ordinary deck of cards that are not tricked up or marked in any way. If so I would very much like to see that on video.

I consider my technique using the triumph shuffle a breakthrough because I have never seen as of yet any kind of riffle shuffle technique that has been published in magic a riffle shuffle technique that I can use that I can do the above three things that I demonstrate in my video - like I can by using the triumph shuffle.

I look forward to viewing and learning from your videos.

Thanks in advance.

Although I think stacking and culling multiple hands - stacking and culling together on the fly - using a riffle shuffle is harder to do than you might think.

Just my opinion.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/23/09 10:09 AM

Image

Just my opinion.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/23/09 11:05 AM

If I may add magician's will either have the ability or the "chops" to do what I have demonstrated in my three video's using some other riffle shuffle technique.

Or they "DON'T"!

Just my opinion!
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Postby mrgoat » 04/23/09 01:37 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:If I may add magician's will either have the ability or the "chops" to do what I have demonstrated in my three video's using some other riffle shuffle technique.

Or they "DON'T"!

Just my opinion!


OK then Glenn - I'll rise to your bait. Gimme a minute and I will record some stuff for you. Prepare to be fried.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/23/09 02:01 PM

Here you go Glenn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvGWJIIOZI

Just my opinion.
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Postby Jonathan Miller » 04/23/09 02:21 PM

I kinda stopped watching after a minute but then I watched the deal and almost fell out of my chair

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Postby Tom Stone » 04/23/09 04:20 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:If I may add magician's will either have the ability or the "chops" to do what I have demonstrated in my three video's using some other riffle shuffle technique.

Or they "DON'T"!

But what is the effect?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/23/09 07:59 PM

The effect is that Mr. Magician, in the guise of a card cheat, can demonstrate his abilities to control cards. Whether or not that's a good thing is open to interpretation.
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Postby Tom Frame » 04/23/09 08:38 PM

Zing! That's a hoot, Damian. Well played.
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Postby Roger M. » 04/23/09 09:38 PM

Todays Headline:
"Goat Owns Bishop".
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/23/09 10:15 PM

powns. ownership implies responsibility.
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Postby Tom Stone » 04/24/09 12:22 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:The effect is that Mr. Magician, in the guise of a card cheat, can demonstrate his abilities to control cards.

That's not an effect.
Going by common knowledge, a card cheat is expected to be able to control cards via covert handling.
Here, the plot, the actual handling and the audience's preconcieved ideas all coincides to the same thing: "Cards are controlled with secret sleights".
That's not an effect - that's the reality!
More in the genre of a flourish or a coin roll, than a magic effect. A skill demonstration.
But perhaps there is an latent effect here, not yet brought out? If that's the case, then...

What is the effect?
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Postby John M. Dale » 04/24/09 01:53 AM

mrgoat wrote:Here you go Glenn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvGWJIIOZI

Just my opinion.


Hey, Goaty,

I'm glad to see you've not lost the art of snark that I've admired since the a.m.s days watching you slay our Australian "friend." ;)

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Postby Pete McCabe » 04/24/09 02:17 AM

The effect is that a person painstakingly shuffles several cards into the right positions.
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Postby mrgoat » 04/24/09 04:33 AM

Pete McCabe wrote:The effect is that a person painstakingly shuffles several cards into the right positions.


Where's the script for that in your bloody book McCabe? How could you miss out something so obvious?

I feel disappointed, and although you were kind enough to personally make my copy of your book complete with the missing letter, I now feel let down.

Please publish an addendum to the book and release it for free or GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK.

Damian
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Postby Cugel » 04/24/09 04:43 AM

Glenn Bishop wrote:Cugel, Denis Behr, Eoin O'Hare, El Mystico, mrgoat, Silly Walter, Nikodemus Siivola, Dustin Stinett and anyone.

In the spirit of good fun - I would love to see video of any of you guys stacking and culling together on the fly - or stacking and culling four aces from a slug - or stacking and culling from a slug three different hands for a five handed game like I do in my triple duke triumph video - using any kind of table riffle shuffle technique that is not the triumph shuffle as I use in my video.


Challenge accepted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67dcfjhb ... annel_page
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Postby El Mystico » 04/24/09 06:08 AM

That's lovely Cugel, but - to anticipate Glenn - this is just culling. Glenn is talking about stacking AND culling. (although culling and stacking would probably be a better way round).
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Postby Cugel » 04/24/09 06:33 AM

El Mystico wrote:That's lovely Cugel, but - to anticipate Glenn - this is just culling. Glenn is talking about stacking AND culling. (although culling and stacking would probably be a better way round).


Yep, Glenn will likely decry it as not meeting his challenge, but only because he won't comprehend what it is he is seeing.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/24/09 08:59 AM

Cugel wrote:
El Mystico wrote:That's lovely Cugel, but - to anticipate Glenn - this is just culling. Glenn is talking about stacking AND culling. (although culling and stacking would probably be a better way round).


Yep, Glenn will likely decry it as not meeting his challenge, but only because he won't comprehend what it is he is seeing.

Sorry Cugel - even when I think the video is nice work it is "not what I am doing" and not even close to the goal that I went after in my three video's.

Try culling and stacking four aces from a slug that is not on the top of the deck - then try culling and stacking three different hands of "four of a kind" from a slug that is not on the top or the bottom of the deck.

Then try to cull and stack - three or four aces on the fly from a shuffled deck. "And you have no idea where the aces are in the deck". All this I might add without marking or tricking up the deck in any way. Or using a tricked up deck like belly strippers or marking or putting sand work on the aces. Or using a corner short or a short card.

I don't think that you can do it as I did in my three video's with any other kind of shuffle work. However I would be happy to be proven wrong. As I said in another thread - the video that you presented is nice - but not even close to what I am accomplishing in my three video's.

And mrgoat - your video was a "riot" thanks for such a great laugh!!!!

Just my opinion.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/24/09 09:00 AM

http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... 04&fpart=1


Jim Maloney wrote:Steve has a point. The nastiness displayed on this thread, especially from Chris Aguilar, is unnecessary. You may not be a fan of Glenn's work, but the constant barrage of ugliness displayed toward him is, frankly, somewhat embarrassing.

This thread has been running in circles for a while now (some may say down the drain). I'm locking it.

-Jim


Richard Kaufman wrote:I'll over rule Jim here for one reason: no one except Glenn Bishop has given the original poster many leads on published methods of Riffle Stacking.

Let's remove Glenn Bishop from the picture for a while: Glenn, please don't post in this particular thread anymore. We get your point.

Those who think that Glenn's work is crap: don't post in this particular thread anymore. We get your point.

As to why the thread has devolved to this point, frankly I think Mr. Bishop's attitude brings out a mean ole' streak in some people and they feel compelled to tell him what they think and it's not a pretty sight (or site!). We're done with that in this thread.

Now if someone has something interesting to say about Riffle Stacking, please continue.


Jim Maloney and Richard Kaufman came close to nailing it in this above thread. The point is that in my opinion - there are magicians here that dont like ME.

So even if I presented the finest technical ability on earth - because the magicians dont like me and in my opinion some may even have some kind of a grudge or a vendetta against me - some in my opinion would still not like and try to find the flaws in my work and in my three videos. Just because they seem to like to jerk me around and argue about magic.

Some of this may go back to when I produced and sold my first DVD with Glenn Bishop Cuts the aces on it and I got much the same comments in blogs and in the Magic Caf about my way of doing my slant on the Stevens cull - one said that it was a pain to watch. And my answer is still - my audience likes it.

However in my opinion that does not bug me at all because I work for a living and my audience that I charge money for my magician service seem to love what I do and I have a track record of success for more than 25 - 35 years. As I remember there were magicians that said comments about Jack Pyles second deal and that they could spot it. And as I remember Jack didnt care and still made a living with it doing his bridge deal.

Nate Leipzig said it - or something like it - if they like you they will like your act. And in my opinion if I may add - flawless magic is only an opinion anyway.

That is all I have to say - in this thread.

Thanks everyone for the laughs and the kind words as I now close the door.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/24/09 09:29 AM

Perhaps if you stated your objectives
Then discussed your strategy for meeting those objectives
And then discussed the mertits of that strategy
And then offered a simple demonstration as proof of concept
More readers could understand what's going on
And we could read a better discussion than what's been
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Postby mrgoat » 04/24/09 09:42 AM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Perhaps if you stated your objectives
Then discussed your strategy for meeting those objectives
And then discussed the mertits of that strategy
And then offered a simple demonstration as proof of concept
More readers could understand what's going on
And we could read a better discussion than what's been

Image
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Postby John M. Dale » 04/24/09 11:57 AM

Thanx, Goat. Now I have to clean the coffee off of my monitor.

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