Rings 'N' Thing II going belly up

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Dave V » 12/11/08 05:03 AM

James Kernen wrote:Ray's original post was referring to the "liquidation sale" which RNT2 announced through newsletters and on their announcement blog and not to the sale of the whole company.

George asked about the "sale" not being posted on RNT2's website... I figured he was interested in the liquidation sale that Ray posted about so I provided a direct link in case it was missed.

Marco's post referred to the company being for sale in general, which it has been for a while for the reasons stated on RNT's website.......this is different than RNT2's recent (12/7) announcement leading to their decision to have a liquidation sale.... Their website has all the details....just in two different places.


This explains things quite nicely. I understand some people have hard feelings about(and bad dealings with)RNT2, but the question wasn't about that.
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Postby Marco Pusterla » 12/11/08 05:08 AM

Ray T. Stott wrote:Sorry, Marco but, fortunately, you haven't a clue on this one.
No disrespect intended.


No offence taken: my point is that if a company is up for sale, I don't see anything wrong in them doing a "business liquidation sale"... it makes perfect business sense in trying to clear out the stocks while waiting for a buyer for the business...

All the best,
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Postby Brandon Hall » 12/11/08 07:27 PM

How is everyone missing the obvious? I think Ray is trying to tell us that certain people that have already paid for items may not be receiving those items...but I could be wrong.
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Postby Ray T. Stott » 12/11/08 07:30 PM

Brandon Hall wrote:How is everyone missing the obvious? I think Ray is trying to tell us that certain people that have already paid for items may not be receiving those items...but I could be wrong.


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In accountantspeak there exists what is known as The Balance Sheet Equation: Assets-Liabilities = Owner's Equity
( CAPITAL )

or A - L= OE

When L ≥ A, OE is kaput.

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Postby Dave V » 12/11/08 08:46 PM

I don't disagree. I know there are a lot of "loose ends" out there of all kinds. My response addressed only George's question about not seeing the info on the website and Ray's reply:
You are correct, Sir.
There is no mention of it on their website.


It is indeed mentioned on their website, both the sale of the company and the liquidation sale of their products. I understand their website is a bit complicated to navigate, and if they were remaining in business I'd offer to help remedy that.

I know pretty much what Ray was referring to, but it really didn't answer the original question. I'll leave the nasty comments about business dealings for another day. Or never, as it's really none of my concern. You guys can fight over that without me. RNT2 has never yet done wrong by me. Maybe I was one of the lucky ones.
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Postby hugmagic » 12/11/08 10:34 PM

I will find out as I just ordered two items. I paid with Paypal. If I do not have them in a week and they are satisfactory, I will contact them about the items.

Liquidation or not, I do not expect anything less than perfect on these items.

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Postby Ray T. Stott » 12/12/08 12:41 AM

...Maybe I was one of the lucky ones.


Precisely.

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Postby Sebastien L. » 12/12/08 05:20 AM

hugmagic wrote:If I do not have them in a week and they are satisfactory, I will contact them about the items.


A week? That's a laugh.

I ordered two sets of cups back in July. Took 3-4 months for one set to show up, the other showed up two weeks ago, and I am still waiting for my balls.

Possibly if they really limit themselves to clearing out old stock getting your items will be faster, but honestly... Good luck.
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Postby Brandon Hall » 12/12/08 12:56 PM

I don't think anyone has ever questioned the quality of the products they put out. I think everyone agrees we are losing one of the very best. I don't understand why Ray seems so gleeful about it.
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Postby Sebastien L. » 12/12/08 01:20 PM

I fully agree, the quality is great. I love their products, and if it weren't for the service I've already received I certainly would have broken down and ordered a few things after they lowered the prices.

I'm sad to see them go, but that doesn't stop me from wishing they were better about certain things.
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Postby Kurt Lee Flickner » 12/12/08 06:21 PM

As I understand this, and it has been posted on the Cafe;

Jake is seriously ill, and has been for months, he just got released from the the hospital on an extended stay.

When Jake took so ill months ago, they put the company up for sale, but because Jake has been the main labor of RnT2, everything fell behind. Thier daughter, who knows how to do things, has been away at college. While trying to finish her college, she was working to try to catch up things at RnT2, and to understand the status of the many things Jake had been working on.

She finished school this month and has been working full time to catch things up.

Now she is starting Law school next month, and will not have the time to devote to the biz, for this reason the family has decided to liquidate the stock of the company, and not make (re-stock) anything else except for those items that are on order, her uncle has flown in to help, catch up on orders, and get them out.

and to add to thier current problems, when it rains it pours, they had an internet problem earlier this month, which made communication impossible. And to add to things, an aunt passed away last week out of town, that took them away from the business for a few days.

The company is still for sale, the designs, the tools etc. and whatever stock is left.

On the cafe there is quite a bit of discussion of people waiting for thier months old orders, and one by one, they are acknowledging receipt of the items. Since they started thier liquidation, I have ordered products they had advertised, and recieved them promptly, something else I had requested, not part of thier liquidation, they have not been able to fulfill yet.

I believe they will honor all thier committments, like many businesses that are basically one man run, and that someone gets so sick, things can fall quickly, but I believe Jake's family is working hard to fulfill every commitment. I just feel we need to be patient, and give them a chance, I know the frustration in trying to reach them at a time when they are busy running the tools, and can't find the time to answer the many questions.
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Postby hugmagic » 12/12/08 10:26 PM

I fully understand the rigors of making custom orders. But the website leads one to believe these items were in stock and ready to ship. All orders are automatically processed for air shipping.

I am sorry to hear of the family problems and understand the toll that can take. But communication is important. Just be upfront and tell people what is going on.

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Postby Cugel » 12/13/08 05:37 AM

Brandon Hall wrote:I don't think anyone has ever questioned the quality of the products they put out.


They have certainly questioned the provenance. Ask James Riser or Brett Sherwood if they were happy having their designs copied.
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 12/13/08 01:56 PM

Just to chime in here (coming out of long-lurk mode):

I heard on the EG about the close-out sale and went to the RNT2 site. I ordered some linking rings and a micro chop cup.

Then I found this thread. Alarmed, I sent RNT an email asking about my order. (This was before Kurt Lee Flickner posted his explanation of the RNT2 situation.)

I got an answer back from Jake's daughter within about 12 hours, saying my first order had gone out hours before I inquired.

It was indeed reassuring to at least know the reasons for any possible delay. I'm very sorry about Jake's health, and sorry to see them go out of business, but glad to know that they seem at least to know who has ordered what, and that shipments are going out.
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 12/15/08 10:02 PM

A follow up, just FYI:

My 12" rings arrived in today's mail, the first business day after Epiphany Jean told me they had been shipped, and seven days after I placed the order. The rings are beautiful, and exactly as described on the website.
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Postby Mike Carr » 12/16/08 04:23 AM

Your a very lucky fella.
I bought and paid for nearly $700 woth of cups and ball and a chop cup in January of this year.

All I ever got was unanswered EMail and lies over the phone.

But I'm glad that you got your rings.
I ain't been so lucky.
I never got s**t
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Postby Kevin Connolly » 12/16/08 08:13 AM

Amgems the Great wrote:Your a very lucky fella.
I bought and paid for nearly $700 woth of cups and ball and a chop cup in January of this year.

All I ever got was unanswered EMail and lies over the phone.

But I'm glad that you got your rings.
I ain't been so lucky.
I never got s**t


You registered just today and no name. Hmmm. I believe your story.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/16/08 09:18 AM

I don't understand the purpose of the angems posts or id - just seems like outgassing.
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Postby Matthew Field » 12/16/08 12:36 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote: I don't understand the purpose of the angems posts or id - just seems like outgassing.


"Amgems" spelled backwards is "smegma". [Look it up.]

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/16/08 12:51 PM

Matthew Field wrote:"Amgems" spelled backwards is "smegma". [Look it up.] Matt Field


yes and erdnase backwards is whatever... but the text still speaks for the writer ... whose point is???
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Postby Kevin Connolly » 12/16/08 02:21 PM

Matthew Field wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote: I don't understand the purpose of the angems posts or id - just seems like outgassing.


"Amgems" spelled backwards is "smegma". [Look it up.]

Matt Field


Yes, we're a pretty bright bunch here. We caught that hours ago. Don't you think it's queer for someone to register today and make this comment?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/16/08 03:04 PM

No.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
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Postby Kevin Connolly » 12/16/08 03:49 PM

OK. Two say yes, one says no and one missed the point.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/16/08 03:53 PM

one of my favorite shows had a character calling another "smeghead" - but this was not about vaguery or anonymity - right, red dwarf. how tough is it to make ones feelings known without wearing a mask or cape?

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Postby George Olson » 12/16/08 03:59 PM

Great quote Jonathan! It ought to be entered in the "Best Quotes" section. So many fools!

GO
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Postby Ray T. Stott » 12/17/08 11:44 PM

Kevin Connolly wrote:
Matthew Field wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote: I don't understand the purpose of the angems posts or id - just seems like outgassing.


"Amgems" spelled backwards is "smegma". [Look it up.]

Matt Field


Yes, we're a pretty bright bunch here. We caught that hours ago. Don't you think it's queer for someone to register today and make this comment?


Wrong!!
Sorry KC but Amgens spelled backwards is NATURES - No, I'm wrong, SERUTAN spelled backwards is NATURES...The bulk fiber laxative that was a sponsor of the old Little Orphan Annie radio show in the 30's.

The company went for an elderly demographic when commercial television gained popularity and sponsored The Lawrence Welk Show. Anda one, anda two...

After loosing their sponsor, Little Orphan Annie's dog, Sandy was quoted as saying:
[color:#FF0000]ARF![/color]


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Postby Kevin Connolly » 12/18/08 01:10 AM

Sorry. My Bad.

That's why I must try to Ever to Excel, Ever To Be The Best, Always Excel.
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Reason: μην εμπιστευθείτε ποτέ έναν Έλληνα που φορά τα πά&
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/18/08 09:20 AM

that's a challenege to both use Microsoft's product and to be best - but then again struggling to escape contrived containment seems to amuse some.
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Postby Ray T. Stott » 12/19/08 01:13 AM

That's why I must try to Ever to Excel, Ever To Be The Best, Always Excel.


Jon's correcto mundo - Sun Microsystem's OpenOffice V. 2.4.1

Long may it Rain..er..Rein..er..Reign!!




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Postby Sebastien L. » 12/30/08 08:20 AM

Kevin Connolly wrote:
Amgems the Great wrote:Your a very lucky fella.
I bought and paid for nearly $700 woth of cups and ball and a chop cup in January of this year.

All I ever got was unanswered EMail and lies over the phone.

But I'm glad that you got your rings.
I ain't been so lucky.
I never got s**t


You registered just today and no name. Hmmm. I believe your story.


If you happen to read the cafe, until today you could have read a thread were more than one person said a similar thing.

Of course, someone got the thread pulled. A whole lot of evidence of RNT II making excuses and having people wait for months, while they ship some other orders overnight.

It's a lovely feeling to know that 6 months after paying hundreds of dollars, I still don't have balls to go with my cups. However, people buying stock at reduced prices somehow get to have their orders shipped while I am still waiting and somehow the people at RNT II don't deem it necessary to inform me of what's going on.

I've given RNT II every chance to set this right and they still don't get it. So here's my full experience with them summed up:

I called them in July and spoke to Jake. I wanted Gazzo Cups. I was told they were not backordered or overworked, and it would take a few weeks. We talked about other cups and there was a close-up set which he had on hand, only needed to be polished. Fine, I'll take that too. Sent my money via paypal. Noted what I wanted in the PayPal notes.

Now the fun began. I was told I would get a tracking number as soon as the items were shipped. Items were to come with embroidered bags and certificates of authenticity.

A month later I try contacting them. Had some problems with that. All throughout the ordeal I would send an email, wait a week or so, send a pm on the cafe, wait a few days, call the shop, get no answer, leave a message, wait, and repeat. I did not go crazy and call or email twice in a day, or even on consecutive days. No matter. I'd be able to get something from them maybe twice a month at best.

I was given all sorts of excuses as for why my order was being delayed, but it was always being worked on. 3 months after my order a package arrived. I had been trying to get a tracking number for it. Not only had I not been sent one when it was shipped (like promised), when I called and was told the package was shipped they could not find the tracking number. A week later and still no number, the package shows up. No big deal.

Once I open the package I am not so happy. The cups are there, they are great. But, no certificate of authenticity. The bag is not embroidered in any way. Oh well. But worst of all, no balls are included.

Again I do the dance, get in touch with them, Jake apologizes and says he will get them made and sent right away. We confirm the details. Even though I included the ball color in pretty much every email and note I sent to them, when he talks to me he gets it wrong. I correct him. No problem.

At some point after I call about my Gazzo cups. Oh, they've been shipped, again without notice or tracking number. They show up a week or two later. They're very nice. Strangely the postmark shows that when I called and asked about the cups they weren't actually shipped. And again, when I open the package... No certificate of authenticity. The bag is not only not embroidered, but is so tall it could fit a dozen cups. Not very appropriate for the cups.

But even worse, the balls show up... in a completely wrong color. A color I corrected Jake on when he told me on the phone. I'm at the end of my rope. I send an email to RNT II, I probably left a voicemail as well. 3 weeks later they reply that the balls are being made for me. No comment on the bags or certificates of authenticity, or the balls I was told would come with the Gazzo cups. I don't care about these last ones, I would use something else anyway.

Now a month later I still don't know where my balls are. When I saw the thread on the Cafe about RNT II deliveries, I pitched in and asked about my balls. I was given the same old excuses - overworked, too many orders, people will wait for quality, sit down and shut up essentially.

And now somehow the thread was completely deleted from the Cafe, RNT II has not communicated with me in any way to address my concerns.

In the end I will probably need to shell out some good money to get crochet balls from the Danis or from Brett Sherwood. I don't think I should have to, but what else am I going to do?

I'm not a new member. I didn't register today. I had a bad experience with RNT II. Many more have, and posted in that Cafe thread. Unfortunately now it's all gone. I wonder how many threads like these have disappeared over there, and had I been able to read them instead of the overly-positive threads I may not have put myself through so much trouble.

I hope if RNT II reopens they will learn from these lessons. But don't count on me being an early supporter.
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Postby hugmagic » 12/30/08 09:23 PM

I, too, am trying to get a problem fixed with a prop I received. I have sent several email as I prefer to have a written record.

I am trying to work with them but it is hard to do when they do not acknowledge your correspondence.

Luckily, I bought it with a credit card and the card company have been notified of the problem Hopefully, this can still be rectified in a professional manner.

Thus far, I cannot say they have lived up the Rings and Things legacy that I am familar with.

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Postby Ray T. Stott » 01/04/09 05:59 PM

When Jake took so ill months ago, they put the company up for sale, but because Jake has been the main labor of RnT2, everything fell behind. Thier daughter, who knows how to do things, has been away at college. While trying to finish her college, she was working to try to catch up things at RnT2, and to understand the status of the many things Jake had been working on.

She finished school this month and has been working full time to catch things up.

Now she is starting Law school next month, and will not have the time to devote to the biz, for this reason the family has decided to liquidate the stock of the company, and not make (re-stock) anything else except for those items that are on order, her uncle has flown in to help, catch up on orders, and get them out.



Sorry KF, but the curriculum vitae that you have on "Epiphany Jean", the proprietor's stepdaughter, is so far from truth as to enter the realm of fairy tales.

By her stepfather's own written admission on the interactive blog in mid-September 2008, Epiphany Jean is 18 years old and working on her GED.

According to your statements, the girl genius would have entered the ivy covered walls of higher education at the age 14/15 without benefit of a high school diploma and parleyed her non existent accreditation and mythical baccalaureate degree past a law school admissions board that was ready to overlook her current lacking of any academic credentials and not even possessing a GED, the actual presence of a GED would sink her chances of admittance at any recognized school of law including El Collegio de Shyster in Paraguay.

Away at college? - She resides at a different address than her parents but both addresses are in Exmore, Virginia virtually around the corner from Mum and Dad.

The tip of the iceberg is beginning to emerge - the $100,000+ rest of the iceberg is lurking beneath the water and its existence remains secret due to the sizable group of customers hooked in the four and five figure range keeping their mouths shut as they actually still believe that the merchandise and monies will be returned by this crowd after 21/2 years of waiting, lies and unanswered emails and telephone calls by not "upsetting" or "angering" the people in charge and not receiving anything.

The truth of the matter is that they are all going to receive what the little boy shot at and I know of three individuals whose last shipments were boxes filled with [color:#FF0000]worn out books [/color]instead of their manufactured products.

Toot! Toot! - That was the sound of the product and refund train pulling out of Exmore years ago :)
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Postby Dave Shepherd » 01/04/09 06:27 PM

Ray T. Stott wrote: By her stepfather's own written admission on the interactive blog in mid-September 2008, Epiphany Jean is 18 years old and working on her GED.

Where is this interactive blog? I cannot find a link to it anywhere on the RNT2 website.

I am asking sincerely. I've had two orders from the clearance list successfully filled in the last month, but there's one pending about which I've heard nothing. I'd like to get any possible insight into this situation.

Link, please?
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Postby Ray T. Stott » 01/04/09 11:36 PM

It was wiped in late November.

The "blog" is nothing more than a text announcement board now.

I did a page capture of that particular part of the thread.
It concerned the ongoing progress of some new type of cup(s)

I cannot figure out how to post a *pdf to this forum and that is how I saved the page capture.

There are other members of this forum who verified that they had seen exactly the same thing.

Perhaps one of them will step up to the plate.
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Postby Ray T. Stott » 01/05/09 01:34 AM

Just forwarded to me:

Epiphany Jean at her high school junior prom in 2008


Epiphany Jean's MySpace describing herself as 18 years of age with a graduation date of '09

Epiphany Jean [size:14pt][color:#FF0000]~(♥)~(Senior 09)~(♥)~[/color][/size] posting to old dad's RnT Magic Inc. MySpace "Friends Comments"

Proprietor's Favorites:Magic, engineering, religious debates. Working with my hands. [size:11pt][color:#FF0000]Making new friends[/color][/size].

ALERT:
Grunge music and a dash of Italian opera playing on this these sites with no way to mute the "sound".
Turn off your speakers. Actually, I caught the tail end of a duet from Aida sung by Leontyne Price and Jon Vickers - and it wasn't too shabby.
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Postby Sebastien L. » 01/05/09 11:54 AM

Ray T. Stott wrote:The truth of the matter is that they are all going to receive what the little boy shot at and I know of three individuals whose last shipments were boxes filled with [color:#FF0000]worn out books [/color]instead of their manufactured products.


Are you serious?

What would be the point of the folks at RNT II not only intentionally not filling orders, but also paying shipping to send old worn-out books instead? That doesn't make a lick of sense...
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Postby Ray T. Stott » 01/05/09 01:25 PM

[b]Doesn't make any sense to me, either. I have just been informed that the reason this trash was shipped in lieu of product was to "demonstrate" that a heavy box had been shipped by them and obtain a DC that a heavy box was, indeed, received by the addressee. To use the words of another - "That's how a con man works."

But since writing that I now know of [s]another[/s] two more parties that received old books and broken magic props both who are regular posters on this forum.

Whether you believe it or not is immaterial as the facts of these incidences, as personally related to me by the victims, speak for themselves.

Why would I lie about anything that I have written knowing full well that I would be subject to charges of libel?

The truth is an absolute bar to the assertion of libel or slander.
[/b]
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Postby Sebastien L. » 01/05/09 03:09 PM

Wow wow wow. I had started to think that these people acted like con artists... Now this really seems to be the case. I would like for the victims to speak up personally, not through a third party, though.

What you wrote was so strange as to beg disbelief. However after my time dealing with them it's not difficult to believe it either.
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Postby Ray T. Stott » 01/05/09 03:24 PM

I would like for the victims to speak up personally, not through a third party, though.


I would both invite and welcome the accounts of others who have been gaffed by this crowd.

Their reasons for not doing so are legion and most have requested that I respect their confidence, which I have done.

Law enforcement will tell you that an individual who has been flim - flammed will often not report it out shame and/or embarrassment.

It's not about the magic; it's about the daily box office gross.
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Ray T. Stott
 
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Location: Tardis, Gallifrey

Postby Frank Starsinic » 01/05/09 04:41 PM

As I stated on the cafe (before it got deleted) ...

If you put in an order and are concerned about receiving it, all you need to do is put in a Paypal dispute before the dispute expiration date. That will start the line of communication between you and the seller. Do it before 45 days is up.

Doing this does not mean you want to cancel the order. Nor does it mean you're being a jerk. You just want your stuff.

If they refuse to reply, you get your money back.
If they don't ship the product, you get your money back.

If you do this, both you and RNT2 should come out ok in the end, regarding your particular order.
Frank Starsinic
 
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