I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Post topics about the business side of magic.

Postby BarryF » 12/05/08 04:03 AM

I had a wild idea this summer and started working on a project.

Thanks to a couple of really talented partners, it has grown bigger and better than I ever imagined it could - and it's only just begun.

Sign up for and DO the 7-Day Training Course. It's FREE and it easily gives enough tips and insider information to double your income - even if your lazy. If you have some real desire, then the sky's the limit.

The letter is LONG! If you are interested in working for corporate audiences, read every word of it. If you aren't, then don't waste your time.

www.GetMoreCorporateGigs.com

Barry Friedman
Raspyni Brothers
www.raspyni.com
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Postby mrgoat » 12/05/08 04:12 PM

First post spam is always welcome on a forum.
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Postby BarryF » 12/05/08 07:11 PM

I've been reading this forum for years and never had a reason to post. I've followed the careers of friends, enjoyed the discussions on the art itself, or kept up on the 'what's happening' type news for live performances.

I put a lot of work into creating a 7-Day Training Course that I am offering to the community for free. If that is spam, then I'm guilty.

While I know that not everyone who visits a forum is looking to be a performer, I figured that posting it in a section of a forum that relates to marketing an act made some sense.

Beyond the snide comments that this post will surely elicit (I've already scored one!), I do hope that it finds its way into the hands of someone young in their career who can benefit from the information. It's powerful information that I've spent time producing. It will literally take years of of a learning curve.

Barry
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/05/08 09:27 PM

I have always wanted to ask this, and I ask this sincerely:

If you truly have something new to offer, then why does your site and the information it contains, look so much like every other site on the web that is trying to sell some sort of "success course?"

Do you expect people to be ignorant of these other sites? Do you truly believe you are offering something new? Do you think presenting it in the exact same way as everyone else is likely to communicate that?

Sincerely curious,

Brad
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Postby BarryF » 12/06/08 12:29 AM

Hey Brad,

I'll try to answer your questions.

1. Because it is a clear format, simple to read, and it works really well. Since you sound genuinely interested, I suggest you read this fascinating discourse on the subject: http://tinyurl.com/5544cp

2. I'm not sure of what 'other sites' you are talking about so I can't really comment on this question.

3. Something new? Yeah! In a word, the difference is ME. My accomplishments in this field are unparalleled. My free 7-day course is 100% original content that could take someone's marketing plan from zero to prime time. This is for someone who is just starting, or has experience but may be frustrated with the outcome of their efforts.

4. Again, I'm not sure of who 'everyone else' is so I'll let that one just sit.

I've been on over 100 national television shows including the Tonight Show with both Johnny Carson and Jay Leno, done a Presidential Command Performance at the Ford's Theater, and have made millions of dollars performing for corporate audiences for the past 20 years. I always push myself just past comfort and this project is my current stretch. Sure, I'll make mistakes and I'll learn as I go. I really do appreciate your questions as they force me to think more deeply about my process and better understand the population.

Since I posted this last night I've had 57 new sign ups. I don't see your name on the list. Did you sign up for the free course? I'm curious as to how you reached the conclusion about what I am offering without seeing it?

Let me close this by saying that this course probably isn't for you. You probably know everything I have to offer and could have written this course yourself.

You know the person this course is for, Brad -- they write or call you and ask the same questions you've answered a dozen times before but you don't have the time to go into it all over again!

Pass my link onto that person, will ya?

Best,

Barry
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Postby mrgoat » 12/06/08 08:01 AM

BarryF wrote:I've been reading this forum for years and never had a reason to post.

I put a lot of work into creating a 7-Day Training Course that I am offering to the community for free. If that is spam, then I'm guilty.


You are a very noble man and I apologise.

I thought this was some kind of marketing trick to get people to your course, where you then upsell them to something expensive.

I didn't realise you were doing all this out of the kindess of your heart.

I feel awful for assuming your old-fasioned longform direct mail letter was, in fact, nothing of the sort and in fact just a free giveaway with no commerical motivation whatsoever.

My bad and I apologise unreservedly for jumping the gun on this one.
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Postby Jack Turk » 12/10/08 01:51 PM

Barry's obviously a very skilled direct response
marketer. His site is professionally done, and
the promo materials for this 7 day course are
excellent.

(I would consider moving the opt-in on the
popup up, however, as you have to scroll
to get to it, and that may be inhibiting your
overall response. Of course, there are tools
to track this...)

Personally, I love being pitched by a pro, because
not only am I open to new insights (I don't know
it all about ANY market), I also learn by de-constructing
the pitch itself.

And learning how to be a better salesman in any medium --
online or face-to-face -- that's education you can always
take to the bank.

--Jack
"59 Ways to Recession Proof Your Entertainment Business -- FREE!"
http://GetLeadsLikeCrazy.com
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/10/08 04:35 PM

Maybe I'm different, but the moment I see one of these "pitches" I turn off - INSTANTLY. In fact, I refuse to buy something that is marketed by one of these pitched on basic principle. Can I be alone in feeling this? Do these not turn off as many people as they turn on?
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Postby Dave V » 12/10/08 07:30 PM

You're not alone.
"I still play with a full deck, I just shuffle slower"
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Postby mrgoat » 12/11/08 10:08 AM

Jack Turk wrote:Barry's obviously a very skilled direct response
marketer. His site is professionally done, and
the promo materials for this 7 day course are
excellent.

(I would consider moving the opt-in on the
popup up, however, as you have to scroll
to get to it, and that may be inhibiting your
overall response. Of course, there are tools
to track this...)

Personally, I love being pitched by a pro, because
not only am I open to new insights (I don't know
it all about ANY market), I also learn by de-constructing
the pitch itself.

And learning how to be a better salesman in any medium --
online or face-to-face -- that's education you can always
take to the bank.

--Jack



Sales? What sales? He stated he was just doing this out of the goodness of his heart to share for free what he has learned.

No money is involved, no 'pitch'. This is just a charity thing. So he said.
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Postby TheDean. » 12/12/08 12:21 AM

A comment and then a question:

Barry has a TON to share, and THAT is just based on his real-world success EXPERIANCE! What, no guesswork, untested theory and opinion-only spouting off???

NOPE! Not this time.

How many of us can say we've been featured on National and International television specials not just News clips either... REAL Network specials!) more times that almost ANY performer (Accept Franz Harrary or Chris Angel of course... Hehehehe!) and headlined the finest events, casino showrooms and high-end corporate functions for significant fees most only dream about for well into two decades constantly?

For all intensive purposes, Barry and his partner (The Raspini Brothers) are a stars well beyond our little industry here he (They) are one of the Top ONE Percenters out there in the industry who not only WALKED The Talk (and still does) but is now willing to share some of his success with guys like us. (and for FREE!)

How is that worth vilifying?

I have done "some" of the things, (the things I wanted to do anyway) that he has, but Barry and his partner are legendary performers who ARE, (and have been since forever!) one of the single most in-demand, high paid professionals in the industry! WE ALL have something of proven value to LEARN FROM THEM free (as offered) or for a fee (If or when offered!) if it is a reasonable match for each business owner. (You n Me)

Sure, you can choose to not participate and miss-out on the learning. Fine! But WHY such a demeaning tone about it all?

Here is a TIP:
= Success is a VERB!
= It Requires ACTION!
= It Doesnt Matter How we FEEL!

The Lesson:
Hey, I dont necessarily like all the stuff that all the truly successful professionals do on occasion, (As Long as it is Moral, Ethical and Legal) but I am NOT going to let my-own myopic, self-limiting feelings stop me from earning and being the success I deserve to be by missing-out on what CAN BE LEARNED From Others who have been there, done that, just cuz I dont like the WAY they do what they share it.

Why not just take advantage of some of those real, proven results regardless of the fact that ya do or dont like the way they offer their ideas and solutions or not. (Again, as long as its legal, ethical and moral as stated above..)

I for one, CHOOSE to LEARN and apply what I can to my own success and the success of others by helping them succeed as well.

Thats just me

I subscribed for his FREE course and it IS killer stuff. (Surprise, surprise it is what he promised!) It is well presented and chalked FULL of real-world truth laden success experience and insights, and no-one has asked for a penny in return for these free valuable success truths. - - I would say though, if he does eventually ask to be fairly compensated for his chronicled success experience and success results, I say count me in!

WHY?

Because unlike some, I dont know it all and I appreciate proven success experience where it is offered. (Even HERE and Online for free...)

Fact of the matter is, if he eventually offers a course, or a live training event or some other proven success solution, I would give it some genuine, hearty consideration, but REGARDLESS of whether I actually do business with him or not, I am still better-off for knowing him and his FREE Online Course! (Even if it by his considerable reputation over the last couple of decades) or only virtually through these free online shares.)

OK, lets just guess, for the sake of conversation that he may have a real success system to offer (and I would Hope He Does!) so what! - No one is forcing me (or anyone else) to robotically hand-over any cash to him with-out thinking or permission! Nor is anyone twisting my arm to read his web-site, sign-up for his free success support or maybe (in this hypothesis) invest in something he may have to offer

Again, So WHAT?!

Take it or leave it. Why bemoan it? Really, Im just asking?? Whats the big deal???

Hey, Ill be honest, I dont always like the way, style (etc) I am offered products and services I buy every single day, but that doesnt mean what each seller has to offer is not of value, does it? We buy it or we dont no big deal. No need to waste a bunch of time bitching and moaning about it.

Smart folks understand that we are exposed to thousands upon thousands upon thousands of message impressions Every Single DAY how may of us drive down the road and close our eyes in protest at a particular billboard, or vehemently RANT at a TV commercial when it airs, calling the advertiser or posting on a internet message board and complain that we dont like The WAY they did their advertising? - Most level-headed, sane people just change the channel, or stop reading or selectively filter it all out and keep on movin down the road of life, no worse for ware Most of us just move-on, change the channel or skip the post... N-E-X-T.

Oh sure, I have commented on an occasional marketing injustice or scam out there, but never on a guy sharing his personal 20 years of PROVEN profit-making prowess, and especially for FREE! (Especially when there is no unethical arm-twisting or smarmy dishonest manipulation involved.- There certainly has been none of that here.)

REMEMBER it was NOT Barry who said:
He stated he was just doing this out of the goodness of his heart to share for free what he has learned. No money is involved, no 'pitch'. This is just a charity thing. So he said.

It would be good if we could stay on track and on topic.

Come on guys, we are all in BUSINESS here arent we?! (Or most hope to be anyway different post!) As Business owners we all hope, work, strive to generate success and even (God forbid Eeeeek!) make money and profit by providing a valuable service and success solution that prospective buyers will want, need and desire whats wrong with that? WHY the belittling posts?

I dont understand

Just ASKING.

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (asking for understanding) in Reno
<><

PS
I read quite-a-bit, but don't post much either... I wonder why?

PPS
Barry, Would YOU like to come on "Success Madness Radio!" sometime for an interview? - I'd L-O-V-E my listeners to know more! - Let me know: Results@TheDean.net

PPPS
Remember I am sincerely asking a genuine question and sharing some of my own thoughts my guess is that I too will get berated. (Though I hope not.)
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/12/08 12:52 AM

Of course you don't understand.

You drank the Koolaid.

You live and die by these pitches.

I'm just saying that there are people on this planet who are turned off by this format. After all, why should I believe someone has something unique to offer when they clearly aren't offering it with any uniqueness at all?

Perhaps it's just a numbers game. Spit out enough stuff often enough and let the 2% fill your coffers.

But what about the other 98% - many of whom, like me, apparently will NEVER buy into your product or service because the format you use makes it look like "just another one of those 'let's sell success' programs."

Barry may be incredibly successful. He may have revolutionary new insights to offer.

But as a potential customer, I don't see that. I see a form letter. I see another "I'm successful and you too can be" pitches.

Seems to me that a smart business man would try and set himself apart from the competition, not look like every other person who bought one of those courses, too!

But, what do I know. Maybe I'm taking an uphill battle.
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Postby TheDean. » 12/12/08 01:51 AM

Hehehehehehehe this is what I am talking about missed the POINT once again.

To be CLEAR, I never stated my position on long or short form sites one way or the other, BUT if you knew me (and clearly you do NOT) I am NOT a big advocate (Well Documented) of just long-form, killer mini sites across the board. - - I am a fan of WHAT WORKS. Period. (But THAT is for another discussion again.) Like I said, there is NO Kool-Aid drinking going on here at least n this end. (Ha! You Crack me up!)

Here is what I KNOW:
I UNDERSTAND Proven Success VERY WELL. Clearly you misunderstood my question. I simply want to know WHY people berate and belittle people for sharing something of value. - - WHY not simply choose to pass on a discussion instead of calling people out when it doesnt HELP anyone become more successful? (Or advance the health of a discussion SURE, controversy sells NOT the same as a HEALTHY Discussion.)

The phrase: Cant We Just All Get Along? comes to mind. Or how about; Do No Harm.

Barry is at-least offering some free valuable content that WILL help those who listen, learn and apply regardless if they are guessing that there might be more coming down the road that any individuals can CHOOSE to take advantage of it or ignore. (Its called adult decision making) But there is certainly little value in jumping the gun and beating people up for no good reason.

OK, you dont LIKE long websites (Weather they WORK or not) FINE, No Biggy, and more importantly, SO WHAT! Again, to stay on track; WHY make someone WRONG for doing what they are doing? (Especially since it is legal, ethical and moral)

Hey, I appreciate your perspective 100% not saying you cant have it. As a matter of fact, Im glad you have an opinion, but why make others wrong just because their opinion is different from yours?

THAT is my consideration with all this. Pretty simple really. NOT lookin for a flame, No need to get more distracted here really.

Weve had TONS of discussions about the different application of the forms of success marketing NOT the point.

Thanks for responding brother. Have a great day!

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (helping people succeed) in Reno
<><

HERE is a share that may be of value:
The KEY To Success Relies On The SIMPLE Fact That Truly SUCCESSFUL People Have Formed the Habit Of Doing The Things That Un-Successful People Are Un-Willing To Do Regardless Of How They FEEL! They Just DO IT ANYWAY!
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Postby NCMarsh » 12/12/08 05:01 AM

I think, with all due respect, you missed the point Dean.

I think what Brad's saying is something that is very important for marketers to hear .

It isn't about the length of the website, it is about an ineffective and unprofessional tone.

Junk mail sales letters, like the one at the beginning of this thread, are amateurish because they feel manipulative and patronizing.

They put the prospect on the defensive.

Geoffrey Gitomer has a great capsulation of this: "people love to buy, but they hate to be sold."

N.
OrlandoCorporateMagician.com Orlando Magician
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Postby mrgoat » 12/12/08 05:40 AM

TheDean wrote:
REMEMBER it was NOT Barry who said:
He stated he was just doing this out of the goodness of his heart to share for free what he has learned. No money is involved, no 'pitch'. This is just a charity thing. So he said.


No, that was me.

Let me explain myself.

A man who has never posted before, posts a blatent, old-fashioned pitch letter.

I wrongly accused him of spamming the forum.

He replied:

"I put a lot of work into creating a 7-Day Training Course that I am offering to the community for free. If that is spam, then I'm guilty."

I think it's totally awesome that he is giving away all this knowledge for free.

You see, cynically, I assumed that it was a PITCH, to try and sell something else. He has now posted saying it is completely free. He is not SELLING anything folks, he is just doing this out of charity.

I think the people here posting suggesting he is just using this 'free' course to get people to later upsell something to is really nasty. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 12/12/08 11:07 AM

This has the potential to be a productive discussion. On one side we have Damian, who is a web marketing professional and on the other we have Jack and Dean, who are web marketing professionals. Two parties, divided by a common language.

I know of at least one person (in the UK) who gets a lot of bookings through a long form page. Personally, I can't see it, but the facts are there.

I can understand Damian's frustrations. If one does not care for long form letters it's easier to get annoyed by them. Playing Devil's Whatsit for a second, Barry did at least offer some free information, which is more than most. I look forward to having the time and/or strength to read through it.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Jack Turk » 12/12/08 12:02 PM

I just want to make clear, I like what
Barry's done. Period.

I think it's impressive on multiple levels.

1) The quality of the free info provided
regarding entering this market.

2) The professional, top-notch manner in
which the entire package is promoted and
delivered.

Good stuff and well worth learning from.

--Jack
"59 Ways to Recession Proof Your Entertainment Business -- FREE!"
http://GetLeadsLikeCrazy.com
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Postby mrgoat » 12/12/08 12:44 PM

Ian Kendall wrote:This has the potential to be a productive discussion. On one side we have Damian, who is a web marketing professional and on the other we have Jack and Dean, who are web marketing professionals. Two parties, divided by a common language.

I know of at least one person (in the UK) who gets a lot of bookings through a long form page. Personally, I can't see it, but the facts are there.

I can understand Damian's frustrations. If one does not care for long form letters it's easier to get annoyed by them. Playing Devil's Whatsit for a second, Barry did at least offer some free information, which is more than most. I look forward to having the time and/or strength to read through it.

Take care, Ian


Long form letters can work, if they are written well. But offline. Online people are time pressed and you need to use short form copy. People don't 'read' online - they scan. Because of this the tricks used in long form letters don't work. One expert says 90% of online people react more favourably to short form. (http://www.originalquill.com/blog/long- ... t/2008/11/)

The key though, as that article says, is GOOD copy. Your target market may react better to long form. The glory of the internet is you can test it. Send out one long form and one short form email. Same on the landing page. See which converts best for your traffic and your audience.

I don't believe the spam posted here was GOOD copy. Sure, the free course to lure you in is a good idea. Not really original in anyway to offer something free for permission to market further to them, but yes, it works.

So sorry, I said "lure you in" just then, which might be interpreted as me thinking you are going to get upsold something after your 'free' course. This is NOT THE CASE as has been stated by the OP. This is perfectly free and in no way after the course will you be attempted to be sold anything. Just to be straight on this.
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Postby Jim Maloney » 12/12/08 12:57 PM

The problem, as Damian pointed out, is that long-form letters are simply poor web design. There's a good basic look at writing for the web here.. It's also worth keeping mind the F-pattern when designing a web page.

Damian and I often agree on these things, though, since we both have experience in web design. Like he said, web users tend to scan -- they look at headlines and bullet points, but don't often read the full text. Again, see the two links I posted above, which shows actual research on how people use web sites.

-Jim
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Postby opie » 12/12/08 01:05 PM

Here is a tip: Success is a noun; succeed is a verb......

I like free and what Barry has provided us....I think it would be nice if each point were kicked around and given some comments, pro and con...

opie
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Postby mrgoat » 12/12/08 01:12 PM

opie wrote:Here is a tip: Success is a noun; succeed is a verb......

I like free and what Barry has provided us....I think it would be nice if each point were kicked around and given some comments, pro and con...

opie


OK good idea. I will start things off.

Do you think that it's a good idea to deny any commercial intent when offering 'free' goods of any description? Or in 2008 is the consumer savvy enough to realise there is no such thing as a free lunch and many potential clients/customers may be put off by hyperbole?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/12/08 01:22 PM

BarryF wrote:I had a wild idea this summer and started working on a project.

Thanks to a couple of really talented partners, it has grown bigger and better than I ever imagined it could - and it's only just begun.

Sign up for and DO the 7-Day Training Course. It's FREE and it easily gives enough tips and insider information to double your income - even if your lazy. If you have some real desire, then the sky's the limit.

The letter is LONG! If you are interested in working for corporate audiences, read every word of it. If you aren't, then don't waste your time.

www.GetMoreCorporateGigs.com

Barry Friedman
Raspyni Brothers
www.raspyni.com


First, who are you? A magician? Might we have heard of you or seen some of your published works? What specifically would lead a reader here to associate your name or words with some sort of credibility or even good intent?

In your next sentence you write of parters. Who? What of them? Then you go on to discusss something that's grown big and you want to share the excitement you have for some ongoing yet undefined process. Not having established basic rapport and credibility you've left this reader cold.

In the thread - the appearance of TheDean, JackTurk and BarryF left me wondering about sock puppets. And with that I have to wonder about the intent of the OP.

Do we need to analyse the third and fourth paragraphs of the post to have a good idea of what's missing and what's puzzling?

There's a sales format involving yellow boxes, capitalized words and checkmarks etc which the site uses which puts a sort of guilt by association on its content. What specifically about that site speaks to us here as magicians? I feel like I'm reading any of the long form online offers I've come across over the years.

Just my perspective,

Jon
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Postby Jim Maloney » 12/12/08 01:28 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:First, who are you? A magician? Might we have heard of you or seen some of your published works? What specifically would lead a reader here to associate your name or words with some sort of credibility or even good intent?

Jon,
As noted in Barry's post, he's one half of the Raspyni Brothers, a successful, well-known juggling duo. You can check out a performance of theirs on the TED website.

-Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 10th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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Postby opie » 12/12/08 02:03 PM

Anyone who has a telephone or an email is going to get sales pitches daily. I don't have any problem with them, as long as they are not taking any more time than it takes me to lift and drop a receiver or click a mouse.

I love Barry's disclaimer of sorts: "The letter is LONG! If you are interested in working for corporate audiences, read every word of it. If you aren't, then don't waste your time."

Of course it is part of the overall pitch, but it reminds me that I can hang up or click. If and when I read ads such as his, I give them the old academic skim, looking for main points that might interest me...The pitch frame is classic, and I particularly enjoyed (not morbidly but with sympathy) his displeasure with the admitted limited success he had in the liner business. That told me that he is educated in what he seeks to present or sell. It kept me reading and didn't cost me anything but a few minutes time.

By the time I arrived at the bottom of the article, I had a mouth full of hooks,eagerly awaiting the meat of the material he was hinting at. Alas, after giving me FREE some food for thought, Barry blew the pitch by mentioning money, before I had filled out the form with my personal data. So, Barry, if you had not said that, I would probably have signed up for at least a peek a the "secrets" section.

So, goat, I have no problem being pitched, and I have given up trying to keep kids on the internet from blowing their money on pipe dreams. However, I love the fact that I can learn from commercials and pitches which offer tidbits of information that I may or may not use for free. Let us not kill this very important factor in our American economy.

Barry: You know darn well that the liner experiences provided you some valuable knowledge that helped you progress to a better life. Would you care to share a few good things you did at sea?

PS: Jon, the OP's intent, as always, is to be enlightened and entertained and hopefully to help however I can...

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Postby mrgoat » 12/12/08 02:43 PM

opie wrote:
So, goat, I have no problem being pitched, and I have given up trying to keep kids on the internet from blowing their money on pipe dreams. However, I love the fact that I can learn from commercials and pitches which offer tidbits of information that I may or may not use for free. Let us not kill this very important factor in our American economy.



Oh I don't either. I do mind if someone offers something for free when in fact it's just a data gathering exercise to market a product to later.

But fortunately that isn't what is happening here. Phew.
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Postby opie » 12/12/08 03:03 PM

Well, it at least tells you that there will be a cost, and I have no problem with that.

I would like it if Barry would join us for some discussion, however. We are a community, and it would only be polite if Barry would sit a spell and chat about this and that, just to be friendly....I have heard stories by magicians; it would be great to hear how jugglers fare on liners....Most of them get standing ovations at our magic conventions....Anyway, most of us would rather to be pitched by a friend than a stranger.

I really would like to hear his take on the liner business, not necessarily how he did it, but simply some stories about performing on a liner...

opie
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Postby TheDean. » 12/12/08 03:33 PM

Hey Nathan,

I UNDERSTAND the point very clearly! You guys dont LIKE the Killer Mini-Site, Sales Letter style of website again, so what. THAT was NOT MY QUESTION and/or CONSIDERATION.

My simple, easy to understand question was regardless of our individual, (well documented) feelings and opinions about that style of marketing (here it comes again) WHY do we have to get all up-in-arms and attack the poster for their contribution here???

I GET IT, you dont LIKE or FEEL, or are of the OPINION that that those types of sites dont work or is ineffective, (regardless of the proven facts again, NOT the point Im not a fan either, as stated!)

I am ONLY asking WHY cant we all just get along??? How hard is this to understand and answer apparently Impossible!

I dont care if we like or dislike the way someone chooses to market. (for the sake of my question anyway) WHY cant folks just get along and discuss the value of the share and NOT the personal likability of the WAY someone chooses to share?

Can anyone answer my question??? Really, when did basic human kindness and civility go out of style here???

= = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Mr. Goat,

I KNOW that was YOU never suggested otherwise. Anyone who read the discussion knows this.

The sarcasm was duly noted Hehehehehe.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Opie,

B-I-N-G-O!

A healthy contribution. Fair, honest with-out demeaning anyone.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Hey guys, I am a Loooooong-time reader, a full time guy and even used to post (pre-last forum change over) and I am NOT, in any way, trying to be contrarian or get into a big argument on the subject. Actually, I am trying to AVOID one THAT is the POINT! I appreciate healthy discussion, just dont enjoy all the silliness, sarcasm, mean-spirited attacks OFF TOPIC and so on.

I totally realize that there are TWO separate discussions going on here:
= ONE about the style of marketing that some choose fine, THAT is not my question.

SURE, I have some proven experience (NOT Guesswork or Opinions) to offer on the subject and potentially bring to the table on this matter, but I will NOT if it is only going to be a distracting or demeaning flame-war. (Which is why I dont usually post anyway)

= TWO; (And the POINT of my question) WHY CANT WE GET ALONG and genuinely enjoy and discuss a healthy substantial, informative debate (Albeit passionate) sans sarcasm, angry fits or demeaning distractions to the potential beneficial subject at hand on all sides of the fence WITH-OUT getting demeaning, nasty, debasing or flame folks for sharing here, instead focusing on the WAY they choose to share and not the WHAT that is of real VALUE???

Is that too much to ask?

I hope not.

Again, JUST ASKING.

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (prefers healthy discussions) in Reno
<><
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/12/08 04:09 PM

Dean/Jack/Barry: What was the resistance to simply posting an invitation to sign up for your offering?

When folks use "scare quotes" and YELLING and writing a whole lot to say very little - I get to wondering what they want to communicate.

At a guess - there's some motion in this community to move from writing to peers in the ballyhoo / ad copy style one might use at the fairground toward writing in the more understated and forthright style of the classically educated.
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Postby TheDean. » 12/12/08 04:16 PM

DEAN: - "WHY CANT WE GET ALONG and genuinely enjoy and discuss a healthy substantial, informative debate (Albeit passionate) sans sarcasm, angry fits or demeaning distractions to the potential beneficial subject at hand on all sides of the fence WITH-OUT getting demeaning, nasty, debasing or flame folks for sharing here, instead focusing on the WAY they choose to share and not the WHAT that is of real VALUE???

Is that too much to ask?

I hope not.

Again, JUST ASKING.

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (prefers healthy discussions) in Reno
<><"


Ha! - I guess it was too much to ask... okey dokey. There's the answer. Thanks anyway.
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Postby opie » 12/12/08 04:48 PM

Jim said: "Opie,

B-I-N-G-O!

A healthy contribution. Fair, honest with-out demeaning anyone."

=========

I been sick....hahaha.....opie
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Postby TheDean. » 12/12/08 08:56 PM

Hehehehehehehe...
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Postby mrgoat » 12/13/08 01:37 PM

TheDean wrote:
My simple, easy to understand question was regardless of our individual, (well documented) feelings and opinions about that style of marketing (here it comes again) WHY do we have to get all up-in-arms and attack the poster for their contribution here???


Oh, is that what you wanted to know?

Easy

1) It is spam
2) It is the first post from the person and it's spam
3) It is trying to sucker people into giving up details that will later result in them being upsold by offering 'free' information

Hope that helps clear it up for you.

Damian
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Postby TheDean. » 12/13/08 04:03 PM

Okey Dokey... what-ever floats yer' boat brother. Hehehehehe!

Party on.
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Postby Brad Henderson » 12/13/08 07:40 PM

Apparently you want everyone ELSE to get along!

Dean, I have seen your posts on the Cafe. I can't say I've ever seen you take a position other than blind support for any and all of these "sell the secrets of success" marketing programs. You HAVE drunk the Koolaid.

And that's ok.

But it shouldn't cloud your perspective to the point that you can't differentiate between a debate about the merits of a system and a personal attack. You seem to be reacting as if we are vilifying someone.

I don't see that.

Then again, I'm not a "loyal" as "marketeers" are wont to be. (My most vocal critic as a reviewer is still stuck on the fact that I lumped all those "marketeers" in together and under one name. In his mind, that alone should disqualify me from being considered a knowledgeable reviewer. I have never seen such blind loyalty! Well, until recently.)

Anyway, I thought my questions/points were reasonable. You have tried to spin them as a matter of mere taste. I assure you, it is more than that. It is a question regarding the efficacy of something that is so obviously manipulative, something that so many of us have already been exposed to. As I said in one of my reviews, once you taught us your little mind games, you are no longer allowed to try and use them on us.

So, there is no personal animosity against you or any one who thinks that these pitches work. Perhaps - if all you care about are numbers - they do.

But I don't want to be just a number. I don't want the person selling me my success to be just a number (albeit one who invested in one of those internet marketing programs). I would like this person to approach what they offer as uniquely as that which they have to offer (maybe that's asking too much) or maybe, they already are.

Let's keep the spin games down to a minimum, Dean. I think it would be fascinating to learn more about these pitches, why they are believed to work, and why they do not appeal to people like me (as a matter of taste).

I think there are people here that can share that (without me signing up on a list).

Let's stay on topic, shall we?

Brad
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Postby TheDean. » 12/13/08 10:02 PM

You crack me up... I asked ONE question, which to date, NO ONE has seen fit to answer directly. Fine no biggy, but do NOT sit there an accuse me of spinning anything. HA, what a laugh!

I DO have opinions, experience and insights about the style of marketing 'also' being discussed here, to which I have barely said a single thing because I already know the reception and spin that it will (and HAS under your unfounded indictment) receive from you (based on your responses to me and others here... how's that for NO-SPIN facts in evidence?)

That was my very specific choice NOT to discuss this marketing matter here with you, and yet somehow here we are accusing me of having a position on the subject more that what I have already shared.

Talk about SPIN??? Now THAT IS FUNNY!

Too, IF Because I am a Fan of Proven Success, that is a bad thing, then color me evil, because "IF", my friend, you have actually READ my posts around the net, (which OBVIOULSLY YOU HAVE NOT.) I am fervently NOT a "Blind Loyalist" to anything but that which I have personally proven to actually WORK for MYSELF over the last nearly 40 year up-until and including TODAY. - Period, end of story.

Funny thing is, though you have offered unfounded supposition indicting me of a position to which I do not hold when I am BEST known and recognized for NOT using anything long-form in my own marketing with excruciatingly minimal acceptation again, I simply DO What WORKS on a consistent, persistent basis, nothing more, nothing less. It IS the reason for my success.

I AM well educated on the various matters, but just because I KNOW and UNDERSTAND other measures, does NOT mean I USE any of them again, I DO WHAT WORKS. (and YES, predominately to the advantage of my buying relationships and less for me but THAT is what I DO!)

CLEARLY you know me not.

Again, I am REALLY best know in marketing for my Re-Elationship Expertise, and Total Solutions Provider Advocacy and NOT anything even close to the direct mail guy at all.

Truth be told, I have NEVER (yes NEVER) sent more that but a few direct mail pieces (Like 10-20 individual pieces at any given time to very specific folks who ASKED for it) to ANYONE, Ever. Not sure how that makes me one of your kool-aid drinkers no matter how bad you want to make me one. Hehehehehehe!

The mirror in your hand is obviously facing the wrong direction my friend. You may wish to turn it in the proper direction and have good, hard look at yourself in this one brother.

Once again, I CHOOSE not to enter into an extended discussion here as it will (Clearly) NOT get fair consideration you have already chose FOR me what you think my position is, and you are wrong, no matter how you try and spin it.

Spin all you like but heed your own advice and Please Stay ON TOPIC. I am not interested in the games. Thank you.

Wishing you all the success in the world, thinking of you and Your Success!

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (Never took, taught or passed the Walking On Water class at the YMCA) in Reno
<><

PS
I am not upset or anything just commenting.

PPS
I LOVE your site Brad! Very classy!
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Postby Paul Q » 12/13/08 10:11 PM

You wonderful people may not think that there is a 'FREE LUNCH' out there, but I heard that today Brad Henderson was eating at The Salt Lick BBQ, he did a few card effects, a crowd gathered, he fooled the socks off of them, and his lunch ended up being gratis, as well as his whole party!

Off topic...but cool as heck!
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Postby TheDean. » 12/13/08 10:16 PM

Whoo Hoo! - I belive it! Cool! Congratulations!
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 12/13/08 10:52 PM

Lesson/Day one - looked pretty good to me - and sensible too.
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby opie » 12/14/08 02:17 AM

Dean said: "what-ever floats yer' boat"


Speaking of boats, I am out here floating without a paddle and still don't have any stories about liner gigs....

I don't have any koolade either, but I hope my thirst for a slightly-off topic bit does not get me into a pee pee contest regarding whether or not I have a right to ask or post support for a member (even new) who is trying to share something that might help somebody with a little charisma.....

Of course, those who don't have any charisma are not as likely to succeed as some of us good-looking, energetic guys might be.....I just want to hear what the man has to say, before I decide to spend some bucks to become Super OP!!!

I have a friend in the promotions business who just bought a 2008 Rolls Royce....He's got a lot of charisma.........

So, how about some comments about the differences between working liners and corporate gigs? I have heard lectures on both and just want to hear some information from one who has done both...

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Postby mrgoat » 12/14/08 09:00 AM

TheDean wrote:You crack me up... I asked ONE question, which to date, NO ONE has seen fit to answer directly.


TheDean, you must have missed me answering your question a couple of posts ago. Allow me to repeat the answer for you as it's really simple.

"Oh, is that what you wanted to know?

Easy

1) It is spam
2) It is the first post from the person and it's spam
3) It is trying to sucker people into giving up details that will later result in them being upsold by offering 'free' information

Hope that helps clear it up for you.

Damian "

Although I suspect all you are really doing is bumping the thread. As I am now. Damn it.
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