Who Invented the Tossed-Out Deck?

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/28/08 02:37 PM

I'm looking for any published information on the Tossed-Out Deck effect prior to 1909.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 09/28/08 03:25 PM

In Dictionnary of Magic, Bart Whaley writes it's fully described by Ponsin (1853) but If I read the reference, it's simply a one-way forcing deck.

The Tossed-out Deck isn't it more subtle ?
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Postby Joe Pecore » 09/28/08 03:49 PM

Are you looking for references in any kind of Tossed-Out Deck like routine or just ones where multiple people get to peek at a card?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/28/08 05:59 PM

I'm doing research for my DeLand book. In 1909, Henry Hardin marketed a deck with laterally split backs: half back/half face. He put a rubber band around the deck and handed it to someone and said to pull it open anyplace and "peep" at a card. Isn't that the essence of the tossed out deck? To force a card on someone when the deck is handed or tossed to them and it's wrapped in some way?
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Postby Joe Pecore » 09/28/08 06:41 PM

I do see in Sphinx Vol 7, December, 1908, page 136 an ad for that deck "Peerless Monte Cristo Cards" by Hardin. It sure does look like the basic idea of the Tossed Out Deck.

Although I've never read Hoy's original Tossed Out Deck Routine (which I heard Persi Diaconis helped him work out), I thought it was able to be done for multiple people "peeking" at the cards.
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Postby Steve Bryant » 09/28/08 11:08 PM

Hoy's deck in The Bold and Subtle Miracles of Dr. Faust is a one-way forcing deck. It's tossed into the audience and three specs peek at a card. Mentalist names three cards, one of which is the force card, and each spec acknowledges his card was named. Since its publication, The Tossed Out Deck has seen many variations and subtleties added to it, my favorite being Harry Anderson's. Hoy also had clever wording to insure a favorable outcome. No idea about earlier versions.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/28/08 11:28 PM

The "Peerless 'Monte-Cristo' Cards" is also a one-way force deck that can be shown as all different--so it's actually a more advanced method. But you can't toss the deck out--it can't get that far away from you.
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Postby Dale Shrimpton » 10/01/08 10:39 AM

ive used a peek deck a few times, with no problems.
Thats basicaly a sven, with the cards stuck together in pairs, across the center of each card.
wit this you can show indifferent cards, give it a rough over hand shuffle , then band it and toss it to the audience.

Kreskins "best of" dvds have him handling a deck in roughly this manner, and he's routined it with a 3 "thought of" card rise. Its a great routine.

but then, if you watch all the stuff on the 3 dvds, youl notice that Kreskin does use a spectator peek to chose a card quite a bit.
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Postby JFox » 10/01/08 02:27 PM

ive used a peek deck a few times, with no problems.
Thats basicaly a sven, with the cards stuck together in pairs, across the center of each card.
wit this you can show indifferent cards, give it a rough over hand shuffle , then band it and toss it to the audience.
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>>>The above refers to my favorite "no-brainer" force deck: a "Telomatic Deck".

I like it because the deck can be RIFFLED-SHUFFLED FACE-UP, looking very fair to an audience. The paired cards are glued across their centers (as stated above). No rough-smooth, or anything to get out of order.

Because the cards are glued across their centers--EITHER end of the deck may be "peeked" at. In contrast, a "Psychomatic Deck" - has the paired cards glued at one end (to demo that each peeked card can be different), thus, only the opposite end can be lifted up for the force peek.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 10/01/08 02:39 PM

How often do people actually shuffle cards face up in real life situations?
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Postby JFox » 10/01/08 02:57 PM

How often do people actually shuffle cards face up in real life situations?
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Nobody does...I meant the Performer can riffle-shuffle the deck face-up, and spread the deck face-up in his hands as well...and then proceed with a routine of choice.
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Postby Dale Shrimpton » 10/08/08 10:28 AM

JFox wrote:How often do people actually shuffle cards face up in real life situations?
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Nobody does...I meant the Performer can riffle-shuffle the deck face-up, and spread the deck face-up in his hands as well...and then proceed with a routine of choice.


you may as well ask, how many times does someone really read your mind :)
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/08/08 11:01 AM

Dale Shrimpton wrote:you may as well ask, how many times does someone really read your mind :)


Might want to pay more attention to the wife, kids, pets, other drivers on the road, the lights...

mindfulness - it's the next best thing to
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Postby George Olson » 10/08/08 02:18 PM

A close friend -- sadly, now departed -- in his self published booklet "Psychological Possibilities" (1993) has a few points of interest in the trick: "Tossed Out Deck" update.

He credits David Hoy with the original idea. and refers to a "dealer" selling a very special "New" deck (3 way force). His treatment of the subject uses a "how" that's been around for years. He also mentions a friend Norm Van Tubergen from Kentucky that had an unusual approach.

Just adding to the confusion.....

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/08/08 03:01 PM

Philippe Billot wrote:...it's fully described by Ponsin (1853) but If I read the reference, it's simply a one-way forcing deck.

The Tossed-out Deck isn't it more subtle ?


Working from the reprinted version of the 1937 Sharpe translation:

On page 53 there's an item where you have a card selected, the pack is shuffled and then dealt or spread into a circle in the center of which you place a pointer. The pointer is set to spin and winds up pointing to their selection. The method is as noted ealier a straightforward use of the forcing pack with one extra odd card at the bottom for them to notice. There is no mention of tying up the pack nor of having a selection peeked - which is taught though as a force a few items earlier on pp47-48 in the item starting on page 47.

I did not notice another mention of this sort of methodology in the book in today's quick rummage.
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Postby NCMarsh » 10/08/08 03:06 PM

I don't think it is fair to David Hoy to call versions of a peeked force as versions of "Tossed Out Deck."

The defining feature of "Tossed Out Deck" -- and what I think represents a real conceptual leap on Hoy's part-- is the psychological ploy to create conviction that each spectator is thinking of a separate card and that the performer nails each separate card. This is a huge leap from handing a spectator a rubber banded deck and forcing a card he glimpses from it.

And so I would argue, quite fervently, that David Hoy deserves credit for the plot we call "Tossed Out Deck".

Incidentally, as for this business of shuffling face up and split faces, etc. With a bank of five alternating force cards and a confident attitude you can spread the deck for the spectators and have them confirm that all the cards are different. It is a touch published in David Ben's excellent version (from Tricks) and one that I have found works in real world performance.

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Postby David Ben » 10/08/08 07:41 PM

Nathan, thank you for your testimonial. Here is an added touch that I neglected to put in Tricks. (Actually I was holding out, but I suppose it is better late than never.) Often when performing for large corporate audiences there is some form of image magnification - Imag - where they project your image (via camera) to a larger audience. I invite people onto the stage as per Tricks, remove the deck and then ask for the camera to zoom in close to the pack. I spread the cards from hand to hand for the camera. The camera, however, is ALWAYS out of focus. You can see it on the large screen that is projecting your image. I leave the cards fanned so that "everyone" can see the deck and close the fan as soon as I see that the camera operator has racked his focus. It all seems extraordinarily fair. Try it.
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