riffle stacking

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.

Postby a7n6 » 09/03/08 11:38 AM

i'm looking for good sources to learn riffle stacking. thank you.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/03/08 11:47 AM

I'm not sure if there are any really good published sources for this. Many of the so-called experts out there lecturing on this are either looking at their hands while doing it, or are staring at the audience, attempting and failing to look relaxed, and their hands look as if they clamping the deck like a vice.

Might be something in the Steve Forte books.
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Postby opie » 09/03/08 12:27 PM

You might want to check this out:

http://www.neo-tech.com/neocheating/chapter5.html

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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/03/08 01:53 PM

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Postby mrgoat » 09/03/08 02:01 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:This may interest you.

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/GlennB ... riumph.wmv


I am FAR from an expert, but I always thought that Vernon's Triumph shuffle was intended to be performed in such a way that the audience didn't see you were just pushing one card across the top and pulling out the cards on the other side?

Or am I misunderstanding the original texts? I always thought that action was meant to be covered by the hand so the audience couldn't see what you were doing?
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Postby El Mystico » 09/03/08 02:43 PM

Maybe Mr Bishop posted a link to the explanation video?
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/03/08 03:00 PM

Well Hardy Har Har! (Laughing)

You people are very good for a laugh.

I can see that your not "experts" just by these two posts. I could go into a long drawn out explanation - and that would talk about stacking and culling "three different hands" from a slug - but why bother because that would be a huge waste of my time.

Because I don't think that your interested in "learning".

Thanks for the laugh!
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Postby El Mystico » 09/03/08 03:31 PM

If it was not meant to be an exposee, then you may find it helpful to contemplate tthat Vernon used to stress a slight shift in the alignment of the cards at tthe rigght side, after they aare interlaced, to hide the tell-tale spaces that can be seen from the front as they are pushed togather.
Or maybe you are too much of an expert for such details.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/03/08 05:29 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:Well Hardy Har Har! (Laughing)

You people are very good for a laugh.

I can see that your not "experts" just by these two posts. I could go into a long drawn out explanation - and that would talk about stacking and culling "three different hands" from a slug - but why bother because that would be a huge waste of my time.

Because I don't think that your interested in "learning".

Thanks for the laugh!


Sorry, maybe you misunderstood my post.

Let me make it more clear. I am not taking about your awesome culling of three different hands from a slug.

That was clearly genius.

My question was about your version of Triumph, which SEEMS to go against the idea of a trick shuffle being something the spectator is unaware of.

It's ground-breaking as far as I am concerned.

I mean, for the last 20 or so years since I got the Stars of Magic with the trick in it, I was labouring under the misapprehension that the shuffle should appear regular. ie, the spec had to think it was a genuine shuffle.


I didn't know you could actually expose the mechanics of the pull through move and pull it off because your culling of three different hands from a slug made the spec completely forget about seeing exactly how the shuffle worked.

I take my hat off to you, Sir.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/03/08 06:33 PM

Excuse me "experts" this thread is about "riffle stacking". Now if you both want to change the subject to the "triumph false shuffle" or any of the other "false shuffles".

OK lets talk about "false shuffles".

I find that the false shuffles used for full deck control have limited use in magic. The reason is that I do not work with a stacked deck where I need full deck control.

At the card table I am not sure about that. I don't know if a card cheat would need do use a false shuffle for a full deck control. Unless they might after a cold deck. However most good cold deck moves - I imagine - bring in the cold deck on the cut after the shuffle. So why would a card cheat shuffle again after the cut just to use full deck control.

That is like a magician doing a pass and then doing a bunch of false shuffles and cuts after the pass.

The best false shuffle I have seen is called the Bruno shuffle - it is sort of like a Zarrow but a little different. I have seen quite a lot of people using this shuffle over the last few years as it gains more popularity.

However the subject of this thread was about riffle shuffle stacking. Like the push through shuffle that is a false shuffle, is changed and modified to use when culling cards. Like in the Steven's cull that was written about in the book Revelations.

Like the push through shuffle was modified - I changed the triumph shuffle to cull and stack according to "my" needs. Two "expert magicians" like yourselves seem to have missed this.

Being a "performer" that makes his living off of doing shows I find that I have to change the written technique I find in books to fit the "real" world performing situations and needs. Who is the judge if the modified technique works or not?

Not you two experts. No No No No!

The judge is the audience and only a paying audience at a show. And if the moves work during "crunch time" over "time". And since I have tested my techniques over time - for many years in front of audiences. And they "work"!

I don't really care what you two little experts think. (Laughing).

Again thanks for the laugh.
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Postby Silly Walter » 09/03/08 07:16 PM

If for some reason you decide to reshoot the video, you may want to zoom in on the cards at the very end because I had a very difficult time telling one hand from the other. I saw a couple of picture cards on hands 3 and 4 and I am pretty sure you probably had the winning hand but it was very blurry to me. Perhaps it is time for me to get some bifocals.

I won't comment on the poorly executed Vernon push through or the fact that you practically shuffled the tits off of the queens because I don't want anyone to think I am being picky.

Plus it is obvious that the routine you filmed was a result of years of hard work and real crunch time in front of paying audiences.
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Postby David Thomas » 09/03/08 07:23 PM

Buy Richard Turner's The Cheat: Science of Shuffling and stacking. Richard teaches you over 60 ways and he teaches them very well.

Well, that's all I got.
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Postby mrgoat » 09/03/08 07:29 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:
However the subject of this thread was about riffle shuffle stacking. Like the push through shuffle that is a false shuffle, is changed and modified to use when culling cards. Like in the Steven's cull that was written about in the book Revelations.

Like the push through shuffle was modified - I changed the triumph shuffle to cull and stack according to "my" needs. Two "expert magicians" like yourselves seem to have missed this.


Good job, Bish. I do applaud your methods. I really always though trick shuffles should be kept a secret from the audience. But you have proved here that you can actually expose the basic method of the trick shuffle, as long as you can cull 3 different hand from a slug.

It's a lesson everyone can learn from and something I urge RK to turn into a cover feature for the magazine.

Thanks for sharing.
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Postby Jeff Eline » 09/03/08 08:13 PM

mrgoat wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:This may interest you.

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/GlennB ... riumph.wmv


This has to be called The Lunesta Routine.
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Postby Larry Horowitz » 09/03/08 08:44 PM

Glenn,

I have never heard of the Bruno shuffle. I have heard of the Bueno shuffle. (Muy Bueno Shuffle, The Penumbra, #9 Oct.2005)

If you will look at your own video you will notice that the comments you are attracting have nothing to do with the cull or stacking of cards. Rather, You are clearly exposing that the two portions of the deck have not been pushed square. I may be wrong, but I have a strong suspicion this was not Vernon's intention.

By the way, if you do a lot of shows, as with any magician, that's more a credit to your business acumen then your ability to false shuffle.
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Postby Lemniscate » 09/03/08 08:46 PM

Several points are being missed here.

First off, one would assume there is something else than staring at GB's hands going on, so his methodology probably flies by. With that being said, I actually riffle shuffle by riffle shuffling, so I happen to think his way looks inferior in several ways compared to "real" riffle shuffling. Not saying my way is better, but I think it is (you don't have that extra step you see when you try to use Vernon's idea over and over... and over). It is the problem with any magic effect, shown without any patter, on the internet. It bored me so much that I quit watching twice. However I have no doubt that it could play quite strongly to an audience. Let me repeat, I have NO DOUBT that it could play quite STRONGLY to an AUDIENCE.

Second, true riffle shuffling involves a bit of math. Not a whole lot, but this can be a turn-off to some. I think, in my opinion, that is the allure of false shuffle stacking (basically, an inverse of the Zarrow idea really, I think Herb's DVD even has some takes on this). Math is not scary, it is your friend.

Third, Darwin Ortiz has a good introduction into riffle shuffling in one of his effects from Card Shark (I am pretty sure). It involves some other work on the cards but it gives you an opportunity to start practicing true riffle stacking. AFTER you have some experience doing riffle stacking then you can decide whether or not you want to use a false shuffle on top of riffle shuffling.

Fourth, I'm not exactly sure what your qualifications are for being an expert (doing card tricks certainly doesn't cut it), but insulting other people because they don't happen to like your approach is pretty juvenile. There are three rules for being an expert, and you hit almost all of them:

-excessive ego (check)
-inability to see things any other way (check)
-completely flawless technique (um...not by any stretch of the imagination, your counts were slow, your steps big, your riffling uneven; you would be eaten alive in any card game I have ever seen)

Now, me, personally... not an expert. Pretty darn good, mind you, but this brings me to the fourth rule of being an expert:

-an expert uses what works.

If it works for you, GB, then my hat is off. I wouldn't personally leave my house if anything I did looked like that (NOT an insult, I just don't like the pairing of a false shuffle with stacking; again NOT AN INSULT ON YOUR SKILLS, just a vast difference in opinion in what looks good).

Thanks for sharing, quite brave. Not so much thanks for being a total ass but hey, we all have our days.

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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/03/08 10:29 PM

Larry Horowitz wrote:Glenn,

I have never heard of the Bruno shuffle. I have heard of the Bueno shuffle. (Muy Bueno Shuffle, The Penumbra, #9 Oct.2005)

If you will look at your own video you will notice that the comments you are attracting have nothing to do with the cull or stacking of cards. Rather, You are clearly exposing that the two portions of the deck have not been pushed square. I may be wrong, but I have a strong suspicion this was not Vernon's intention.

By the way, if you do a lot of shows, as with any magician, that's more a credit to your business acumen then your ability to false shuffle.


Thanks Larry - thats the one. I have that issue however did not have it handy - It is in one of my piles of magazines. Still I think that it is one of the best false shuffles out there.

However to the rest of this post and this thread - really not worth my time to respond to!
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Postby Silly Walter » 09/03/08 10:35 PM

Good call, Glenn. You really should take the time you were going to use to post and spend it practicing the Bruno shuffle.

Just my opinion !!!!
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/03/08 10:51 PM

Lemniscate wrote:Several points are being missed here.

Fourth, I'm not exactly sure what your qualifications are for being an expert (doing card tricks certainly doesn't cut it), but insulting other people because they don't happen to like your approach is pretty juvenile. There are three rules for being an expert, and you hit almost all of them:

-excessive ego (check)

Lem

Sorry - never claimed (to magicians) to being an "expert".

Never claimed to be an expert to the lay audience in my promotion as well. However I will add one or two opinions if I may. The triumph shuffle is a false shuffle that in my opinion has fallen by the wayside in magic.

I took the idea and gave it a twist - changed the handling a bit first so I could use it to stack cards like the four aces. Later I found out I could use it to cull cards. And later still to cull and stack cards on the fly.

The real beauty of the triumph shuffle it in it's simplicity. In performance in front of an audience keeping things simple and not complicated is a good thing. Others may like making things hard to do but I like to keep things simple and use what works.

The other part of why the triumph shuffle is so great (in my opinion) - in this culling and stacking in my opinion is that because it is a false shuffle - the problems of culling and stacking deep - or losing one of the stacked cards as each card is culled and stacked in turn. Well the triumph shuffle solves many of those problems.

One more comment about my video - IT IS "NOT" A PERFORAMCE!

Only a "SHORT DEMOSTRATION" TO SHOW WHAT IS POSSIBLE. When using the triumph shuffle to cull and stack three different hands from a slug!

NOT USING IT AS A FALSE SHUFFLE!

It would be my guess that no one seems to be able to pick up on that!

Thank you all very much for your opinions!
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/03/08 10:57 PM

Silly Walter wrote:Good call, Glenn. You really should take the time you were going to use to post and spend it practicing the Bruno shuffle.

Just my opinion !!!!

Please let me know if you ever come up with anything that in my opinion is this practical to use to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug - Silly Walter!

Or if you come up with anything at all.

Just my opinion!
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Postby Denis Behr » 09/04/08 03:51 AM

mrgoat wrote:I am FAR from an expert, but I always thought that Vernon's Triumph shuffle was intended to be performed in such a way that the audience didn't see you were just pushing one card across the top and pulling out the cards on the other side?

You are absolutely right. I observed this some time ago, too. The execution is simply wrong.

If you want to learn riffle stacking, go to other sources. Any other sources. Here are some suggestions:

More or less easily available are Card College (for a first introduction), then see the publications by Darwin Ortiz, Joseph Schmidt ("New Card Control Systems"), Jack Carpenter and Andrew Wimhurst for numerous applications and tips on the execution, maybe also the second half of Ernest Earick's book.
And if you can find them, Ed Marlo and Karl Fulves published more on riffle stacking than anyone else. (Fulves has a relatively recent manuscript called "Setting-Up Exercices", which contains practice sequences to learn the art of riffle stacking.)

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Postby Nikodemus Siivola » 09/04/08 04:00 AM

I'm currently working on my Triumph, so this was of some interest to me -- not the stacking bit as such, but the deceptiveness of Glenn's handling of the Triumph Shuffle itself.

I wanted to know how a layman would see Glenn's shuffle. I played it to a friend from 0:17 to the deal, without commentary or title other than "Please tell me what happens here."

I don't want to draw too many conclusions from this: most people might see it differently, a higher-quality video might have produced entirely different comments (or not), and the way I posed the task almost certainly altered the way she watched the action.

At any rate, I found her comments interesting, and maybe someone else does too. Here's what she thought she saw:

1. All the aces went in the same place in the deck.

2. During the shuffles, he didn't shuffle properly, but rather stopped, let a few cards fall from one side, and a few from the other, etc. Doing it on purpose.

3. There was something strange about the cuts. Did he put the top portion back on the top and the bottom back to the bottom or something?

The one thing she *didn't* remark on was the fake squaring action or the strip-out (though possibly that might fall under the rubrik of "something strange".)

Cheers,

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Postby El Mystico » 09/04/08 04:30 AM

The query was about "good sources" to learn riffle stacking.
I'm not really sure why mr Bishop posted his video, since, as he says, he is no expert, and it wasnt meant to be either a performance or a teaching aid.

It requires a lot of work to do riffle stacking, and even more work to do it well - Richard's point about how artificial much of it looks is a good one and well illustrated here.
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Postby Bob Farmer » 09/04/08 05:07 AM

The whole point of the Triumph Shuffle is to do it ONCE and stop. Remember, Triumph is a magic trick, not a gambling demonstration. If you keep shuffling it ceases to be a magic trick and becomes a gambling demonstration -- it cease to be a demonstration of the impossible and becomes a demonstration of skill.

My impression of all of the various gambling demos I've seen is that the performer is intently studying the deck, like a juggler trying for the 9th ball, so it always looks like skill it never looks like magic.
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Postby Cugel » 09/04/08 06:39 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Many of the so-called experts out there lecturing on this are either looking at their hands while doing it, or are staring at the audience, attempting and failing to look relaxed, and their hands look as if they clamping the deck like a vice.


LOL. You are so right, and that's why people should skip the crap out there and just go straight to Darwin Ortiz's and Jack Carpenter's material. There is also some reasonable stuff in the first Jim Swain book and you can find a very nice finesse in the hard to locate David Malek notes, "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap".
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Postby mrgoat » 09/04/08 07:39 AM

Glenn Bishop wrote:
NOT USING IT AS A FALSE SHUFFLE!



*Now* it makes sense.

You had no intention of deceiving your audience into thinking you were actually shuffling.

Mission accomplished.
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Postby Darryl Harris » 09/04/08 08:37 AM

Alex Elmsley's Just Lucky shuffle system (The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley, Stephen Minch, 1991, page 391) has a lot going for it, if you want to cull and stack four of a kind for a four or five handed deal, with three or four riffle shuffles. The description in the book is for a four handed deal, but it's easy to see what adjustments need to be made to increase the number of hands.
The top card of the deck is always buried on each shuffle, and each shuffle is identical in appearance.
As these things go, the Just Lucky stacking system is relatively easy to become proficient with in a reasonable amount of time. I was fortunate enough to see the system used by both Larry Jennings, & Michael Skinner, and neither one did more than glance at the deck periodically.

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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/04/08 08:53 AM

mrgoat - Cugel - El Mystico - Nikodemus Siivola - Denis Behr

Please let me know if you ever come up with anything that in my opinion is this practical to use to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug!

Just my opinion!
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Postby mrgoat » 09/04/08 09:25 AM

Glenn Bishop wrote: mrgoat - Cugel - El Mystico - Nikodemus Siivola - Denis Behr

Please let me know if you ever come up with anything that in my opinion is this practical to use to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug!

Just my opinion!


Is that the only time you will listen to us telling you that the pull through aspect of the shuffle is completely exposed?

Just to save time.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/04/08 01:48 PM

mrgoat wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote: mrgoat - Cugel - El Mystico - Nikodemus Siivola - Denis Behr

Please let me know if you ever come up with anything that in my opinion is this practical to use to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug!

Just my opinion!


Is that the only time you will listen to us telling you that the pull through aspect of the shuffle is completely exposed?

Just to save time.


I might as well be talking to a wall. This reminds me of another thread in the magic cafe where I showcased a jog shuffle cull and a group of people climbed all over the jog shuffle video saying all sorts of things about how it wouldn't work in a card game. And how I shuffle the deck several times - runs of single cards to cull four cards.

They were so busy talking about and insulting the shuffle and the amount of single cards shuffled (as what happens in all jog shuffles) they never even noticed that I was using the punch to cull cards.


I was using the punch with a jog shuffle cull and they did not know that. When I performed a week at the Magic castle I again used the jog shuffle cull now called the "punch cull" in many card routines I did in the close up gallery and - no one knew it.

The breakthrough idea was using the punch with a jog shuffle cull.

In my opinion the breakthrough is culling and stacking on the fly - from a slug. Is using a variation of the triumph shuffle. A false shuffle idea that Dai Vernon used that has in my opinion fallen by the wayside today as magicians seem to favor other riffle shuffle work over the triumph shuffle. Almost every magician I have seen do the magic effect Triumph - they all seem to use the Zarrow shuffle over the Triumph shuffle.

mrgoat - Cugel - El Mystico - Nikodemus Siivola - Denis Behr

Please let me know if any of you ever come up with any riffle shuffle technique that in my opinion is this practical to use to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug!

Just my opinion!
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Postby Jim Maloney » 09/04/08 02:02 PM

Glenn,
I think the point others are making here is that, regardless of whether or not you have a new idea here, if the shuffles are in any way suspicious, you've already lost. That is, even if they don't know what you did, they know that you did something. Once that happens, you've missed the primary criteria of deceptive card handling.

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Postby Jeff Eline » 09/04/08 02:05 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:They were so busy talking about and insulting the shuffle and the amount of single cards shuffled (as what happens in all jog shuffles) they never even noticed that I was using the punch to cull cards.

Ahhh...the too perfect theory in action. I see, I see...
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Postby Eoin O'hare » 09/04/08 02:09 PM

Glenn, I would enthusiastically urge you to prove to everyone here just how practical and deceptive your technique really is : go find a poker game and bet big.

I feel confident that this will end the need for these consistently derisive comments.
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Postby Sebastien L. » 09/04/08 03:33 PM

Glenn, I was one of those who criticized the long runs of single cards. You are insulting my intelligence if you think I was unaware of it being a punch cull when I viewed it.

If you consider criticism to be insulting, may I suggest you'd be happier not posting videos? Or if you do, you can always insert the disclaimer that all breaks, jogs and techniques are exaggerated, like in your book. By doing that you may be more successful in getting others to focus on the idea behind the video.
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Postby Silly Walter » 09/04/08 04:25 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:I might as well be talking to a wall. This reminds me of another thread in the magic cafe where I showcased a jog shuffle cull and a group of people climbed all over the jog shuffle video saying all sorts of things about how it wouldn't work in a card game. And how I shuffle the deck several times - runs of single cards to cull four cards.

They were so busy talking about and insulting the shuffle and the amount of single cards shuffled (as what happens in all jog shuffles) they never even noticed that I was using the punch to cull cards.


You posted a video on the Magic Cafe' and they tore it up? They like everything over there. The video must have stunk worse than the one you posted on here.

You may want to start focusing on self working tricks. Fulves has a few self working card trick books you can pick up for a few bucks at your favourite magick shoppe.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/04/08 05:55 PM

Silly Walter wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:I might as well be talking to a wall. This reminds me of another thread in the magic cafe where I showcased a jog shuffle cull and a group of people climbed all over the jog shuffle video saying all sorts of things about how it wouldn't work in a card game. And how I shuffle the deck several times - runs of single cards to cull four cards.

They were so busy talking about and insulting the shuffle and the amount of single cards shuffled (as what happens in all jog shuffles) they never even noticed that I was using the punch to cull cards.

You posted a video on the Magic Cafe' and they tore it up? They like everything over there. The video must have stunk worse than the one you posted on here.

You may want to start focusing on self working tricks. Fulves has a few self working card trick books you can pick up for a few bucks at your favourite magick shoppe.


For old time sake here is a link to my punch cull video...

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennb ... chcull.wmv

Please let me know if you ever come up with anything that in my opinion is this practical to use to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug - Silly Walter!

Or if you come up with anything at all.

Just my opinion!
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 09/04/08 06:05 PM

Eoin O'Hare - mrgoat - Cugel - El Mystico - Nikodemus Siivola - Denis Behr

Please let me know if any of you ever come up with any riffle shuffle technique that in my opinion is this practical to use to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug!

Just my opinion!
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Postby Eoin O'hare » 09/04/08 06:34 PM

Glenn Bishop-

Please let me know if you ever come up with any riffle shuffle technique that in my opinion is practical to use, to cull and stack cards on the fly - from a slug - or to cull and stack three or more different poker hands from a slug!


Just about everyone else's opinion!
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Postby Cugel » 09/04/08 06:54 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:Please let me know if you ever come up with anything that in my opinion is


This is the source of the problem here. You don't listen to anybody unless they tell you what you want to hear. Where's David Alexander when you need him?
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Cugel
 
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Postby Larry Horowitz » 09/04/08 07:01 PM

Glenn,

Punching cards so that they can be identified is "practical".

Running single cards in numbers, more then once or twice, is NOT PRACTICAL.

....unless you define practical as something that can be physically accomplished.

And no, I do not have a better idea. But I also didn't know it was impractical to build New Orleans below sea level until I saw the video!
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