Two packet effect

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Postby swamy » 08/25/08 04:31 AM

The following YOUTUBE clipping is a nice two packet effect.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 08/25/08 08:45 AM

Might want to introduce the cards from one or two wallets and use those - perhaps shimmed to get around going out of frame and also to prepare the trick for performance at the next table.
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Postby swamy » 09/11/08 09:35 AM

Does this effect has any original name ??
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 09/11/08 11:32 AM

Fingertip (both hands) ECs just don't look natural to me. HL
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/11/08 12:19 PM

There's nothing natural about counting a packet of cards at the fingertips of both hands--this is something Vernon did for "Twisting the Aces."

But if you give a small packet of cards to a spectator and ask that person to count them, what do they do? How do laymen actually count cards? They deal them to the table one at a time and count aloud. That's been my observation. That's the easiest and most natural thing to do. Counting cards from one hand to the other is more difficult--laymen don't pick the more difficult of options, they generally pick the simplest.
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Postby El Mystico » 09/11/08 12:32 PM

Its interesting - elmsley didnt hold them at fingertips, so why did Vernon? Still, Vernon found some justification for his handling, with the twisting action which left the cards at fingertips.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/11/08 12:38 PM

More often than not this sort of routine looks as if it was designed to be all about 'and i now count the cards' which pretty much sets up the audience to respond with 'and we now roll our eyes'.

Where this routine and many others fall flat is when the handling is not motivated so much as empty ritual awaiting some sort of "all done" signal.

Moving from the ailment to its cure - consider for example: what if you had four cards face down in your left hand and someone said 'bang - they are now aces' - what specifically would you do? Some would spread the packet, maybe take two into the other hand and then turn both hands over to look at the faces. This is an experiment you can try with people and watch for behaviors you can use in your own routines. Maybe we can call this sort of thing "LayTruth" or "Muggle Test" as regards how ordinary characters respond to instruction.

Now this is not to suggest that one can not benefit from acting the part of an effete dolt or wizard suffering with obsessive/compulsive disorder though one benefits from making such choices as conscious and considered matters.
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Reason: Mugglevision - don't we just wish.
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Postby David Thomas » 09/12/08 12:44 AM

The Dingle variation in the CWDD is the one I use.
I agree with Harry, his Ec isn't so nice....IMO the worst thing you can do in an elmsley is glide the second to last card all the way around it's a dead give away. Liked the effect though.
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Postby Matthew Field » 09/12/08 05:50 AM

I'm not thrilled with the left hand going out of frame twice, once with each packet, before the ending.

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Postby Henley » 09/12/08 06:33 AM

El Mystico wrote:Its interesting - elmsley didnt hold them at fingertips, so why did Vernon?

This is what Andi Gladwin wrote over at online-visions :

"Finally, for those who are interested why Dai Vernon used a finger-tip to finger-tip handling in one of his most famous works, "Twisting The Aces" you may like to hear this little story that I heard from Peter Duffie. Apparently, Jack Avis showed Vernon an effect that made use of this wonderful move, but with jumbo cards. Of course, you can't deal jumbo cards into dealer's grip, so Avis was forced to use a finger-tip to finger-tip handling. Vernon learnt the move from Avis and because of the use of jumbo cards was forced to believe that was how the move was executed."

Is this true?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 09/12/08 08:18 AM

Unlikely Dai Vernon was so facile a learner that he'd stop thinking about the count and miss its application to more natural grips. Instead one might consider that in that particular routine and at that moment in that routine it made sense to play up the fingertips-only handling to show off the impossibility of the card changing inside the packet.
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Reason: historical revisionism
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Postby Hallas » 09/12/08 10:11 AM

I believe it is mentioned that Avis originated this grip for doing the count with jumbo cards in the Elmsley books by Mr. Minch.

Interesting supposition Jonathon.

Or maybe he changed his handling after it appeared in print? From the time the routine was originated to when it first appeared in print in the Gansen written book was perhaps not a long time. Gansen was thought to record things well, surely, the intention to do it at the fingertips 'to emphasise fainess' would have been mentioned.

Comments perhaps from Castle attendees that witnessed Dai Vernon actually perform the effect?

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Postby Bill Duncan » 09/12/08 10:53 PM

Harry Lorayne wrote: Fingertip (both hands) ECs just don't look natural to me. HL

It isn't supposed to look natural, it's supposed to look overly fair. At least in Vernon's trick...
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Postby El Mystico » 09/13/08 12:39 PM

Jonathan, as usual, raises a good point, pushed further by Bill.
Both seem to start with the conclusion that whatever Vernon did was probably perfect, and if we criticise it, then it just means we don't understand it.
Now, frankly, that is, generally, my view!
But here - a) to me the fingertip count looks no more fair than (say) the count in Card Finesse 2. and b) it does not look natural - and yet Vernon was always emphasising naturalness.

As Hallas mentions, Elmsley hypothesised that Vernon knew of the Avis handling, and used that.

And yet, as Jonathan points out, it is very unlike Vernon to accept a move without thinking it through.

So - that puzzles me (as does his Gemini Card trick...I've never understood the justification for putting the cards into an envelope - but that is another story)

But - I'm quite happy to accept that this simply represents, once again, that Vernon was lightyears ahead of me!

Also it is worth emphasising that the "twisting" action leads perfectly into the count; and those who readjust the cards after the twist are missing the point.
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Postby cardstuntman » 09/26/08 11:27 PM

when I think of the EC, I always picture A. Emmerson doing it. he had a crazy way of doing it that just sticks in my mind. the way he taught it in his lecture as well. the cards up high in the hand and he would turn as he did it.
I do the count with the cards more in a dealer grip and more like someone would count money. I try and do all the counts (JC,HC,ect) with the same grip.
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Postby Ryan Matney » 09/27/08 01:28 PM

It could be another possibility that Ganson got details of the handling incorrect. I'm aware there are photos in the book that prove the fingertip handling but I've heard Johnny Thompson say the photo depicting the Zarrow shuffle is incorrect. David Ben also stated on this forum the description of the Zarrow shuffle was lacking/incorrect.

So, could it be a Ganson problem?
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Postby Robinmago » 09/27/08 05:08 PM

It is very difficoult that Ganson was wrong as he specyfied that his books have been checked throug outgoing and ingoing letters and personaly before publishing it.The solution then must be another.I believe.Yet,for example,Slydini made corrections subsequently.It could be that this comed out through more experience?
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Postby JHostler » 09/27/08 08:45 PM

To put a different spin on the discussion: Rather than worrying about other magicians' approaches to "naturalness" (and in consideration of the fact that folks in our profession are largely unqualified to make an objective determination)...

Pick up a packet of four cards and count them from hand to hand as quickly as possible. Don't worry about the grip - just do it. Now ask a layman to do the same.

You'll often see cards drawn into the left hand from a right biddle grip.
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