Most astonishing thing I've ever read in a magic magazine

Discuss the latest feature articles in Genii.

Postby Fred Siegel » 07/15/08 12:37 PM

The most astonishing thing I've ever read in a magic magazine appears on page 67 of the July issue as part of a "Celebracadabra" conversation between David Regal and Todd Karr:

Regal: During all this, you have been creative. You came up with interesting terminology. What's your new word?

Karr: "Vagician."

Regal: Meaning?

Karr: A lady magician with no real skills but abundant attractiveness.

Regal: "Vagician." Thank you, Todd Karr, for contributing to our art.


This exchange enthralls me because it can be seen as an example of misogyny in magic or as a comment on misogyny in magic. Or is it both?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/15/08 01:08 PM

Hmmm... awaiting the peal of thunder as wags proffer candidates for the male equivalent.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/15/08 01:54 PM

Fred Siegel wrote:This exchange enthralls me because it can be seen as an example of misogyny in magic or as a comment on misogyny in magic. Or is it both?


Or perhaps it was just a joke.
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Postby mai-ling » 07/15/08 03:46 PM

i don't think its misogynistic.
i found it quite amusing.

there are plenty women magicians with no real
skills that show it.

they look good and dress provacative on stage
and that's about it.

one of my friends saw misty lee a few months back.
He is not a magician. He said that she was dressed
attractively (meaning, she showed her cleavage off)
but her magic and presentation skills weren't there.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/15/08 04:02 PM

"The Showgirls of Magic" come to mind. They had a show at the old San Remo hotel in Las Vegas.

I never saw it; but part of me sure wanted to. ;)
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Postby Steve Bryant » 07/15/08 04:22 PM

A fun show! I was there one night and taking notes for use in The Little Egypt Gazette. The audience was crammed into the small room. A young Mexican guy near the wall pointed at my note-taking and said, "Hey! Look at that guy!" I retorted, "They said no photography. They didn't say we couldn't DRAW them."
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/15/08 05:56 PM

As Harry Anderson once said, Topless, schmopless: Youve seen two youve seemem both.
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Postby Fred Siegel » 07/16/08 01:46 AM

Well, I started this thread, so I guess I should reply to some of what has been said here.

I want readers to understand that I did not bring up this issue because I was shocked or upset by what was said in the article. Actually, it made me feel optimistic. I think it is good that we can talk about the ambivalent feelings towards women that I believe is a part of our world of magic. I thought Mr. Regal's response to Mr. Karr's statement acknowledges the prevalence of those feelings and ridicules them at the same time.

Unfortunately, I feel less optimistic after having read some of the responses on this forum. I'll respond to a few here.

Dustin, I realize that the remark about vagicians was a joke. I believe, however, that jokes have meaning and just because something may be funny doesn't mean it doesn't reflect a problem of some kind. I haven't noticed any recent jokes in the magic press about lazy black magicians or stingy Jewish magicians or mincing gay magicians. I will note that this hasn't always been the case. I remember an old cartoon in the Sphinx called "A Successful Performance in Coontown," in which a black magician conjures with homemade props, chickens, and a watermelon. While I'm sure people might have argued at the time that it was only a joke, most people would now look at it as an artifact of a sad period in our history. What will we think about "Vagicians" in the future? I sincerely hope we'll be appalled.

Also, I hope this won't make me appear overly sensitive, but I often perform with my wife and sister-in-law and if I hear anyone refer to either of them as vagicians, I don't imagine that I will find it funny. (Frankly, the thought upsets me as I type this.) I wouldn't want to hear anyone discuss my female friends in magic in that way either. Nor any of the girls in my recent "magic camp" in which, generally, the girls were better than the boys. (They were better because they tended to support each other in groups and think more carefully about how they were going to present their tricks.)

In the specific case of Celebracadabra, I can't fathom the use of that word in reference to any of the women. At their worst, none of them are as bad as many members of the local magic club, especially if you consider the amount of time they had to prepare. If you all saw the same show I did, it is obvious that both Lisa and Kimberly were robbed. Lisa should have beaten the guy who refused to do the snake trick and Kimberly shouldn't have been held accountable for the failure of a prop that was not built properly. It didn't say specifically that the "vagician" line is a reference to either of those women, but in this context what is one to assume?

Just for the record, I saw the Showgirls of Magic. They weren't very good. Even so, to refer to them by making reference to their vaginas is not merely a joke. It is a particularly hateful joke; one that thinking people who love their art shouldn't let go by without notice or comment.
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Postby Kent Gunn » 07/16/08 02:14 AM

Fred,

Thank you sir for your posting. I was afraid to post about the V-joke. I'm actually quite profane and ill-tempered. I'd have gone off on a rant that would not have done anyone any good.

I think the undercurrent of boys-club humor, at the expense of women is pervasive in American society. I'm glad Mai-Ling wasn't offended.

I've two daughters who wouldn't have taken offense. They've grown up in a time where the word vagina is fodder for jokes. Or perhaps they were raised by a father with an especially foul mouth. That joke would've curled my grandmother's hare. (She was a magician, I didn't spell that wrong!) For her sake, I was a little offended.

I'm the furthest thing from politically correct. But prejudice in any form is appalling. Your example from the Sphinx particularly rang with clarion clarity! I'm not sure if the vagician crack (see I'm only making it worse!!) is of the same cloth. It's cut on the same bias though!

Thank you sir! For voicing your opinion. You did start the thread though. I'm pretty sure I'm on your side. I think the joke was over the top. I doubt I'd use it.

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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/16/08 03:31 AM

I wish I had a buck for every magic wand joke Ive heard women say about male magicians.

And when Cintra Wilsona female writer for salon.com (with greater reach than Genii)referred to Ricky Jay as unf**kable, what was that and where, I might ask, was the outrage?

Never mind; let us all just keep that a rhetorical question and lighten up.

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Postby Cugel » 07/16/08 06:23 AM

What next? Racist epithets as magic puns?

No thanks.
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Postby mrgoat » 07/16/08 10:06 AM

Fred Siegel wrote:This exchange enthralls me because it can be seen as an example of misogyny in magic or as a comment on misogyny in magic. Or is it both?


Dude, it's a joke...

Any your definition of misogyny alters from the dictionary:

"hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women."

I fail to see how a vagina pun demonstrates a hatred or dislike of women. Can you explain what you mean?

I would prefer a funny vag joke to hearing someone say 'hold you hand out, no the clean one' etc.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/16/08 11:47 AM

I'm filing this thread under "egg bag" - and just watching the wags wave and wax aversive.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/16/08 01:29 PM

Cugel wrote:What next? Racist epithets as magic puns?


Now we are headed into the old slippery slope argument.

What a crock.

We are dealing with matters of taste, and tasteless jokes are not a gateway to racism.

I was the only reviewer who called Steve Dacri on making a tasteless joke about handing a black man a knife on his set of DVDs.

I also called him on implying that a woman might be open to sex for moneyhence calling her a whore without actually using the word (while another reviewer said that Mr. Dacri treats his audience with respect).

But these jokes he uses are simply without taste or class. Steve Dacri is neither a misogynist nor a racist.

That is the danger of political correctness. It wants to take matters of taste and create laws around them. For example, the absurd notion that the N word should be banned from use in this country was vehemently argued against by many black comedians. Had they not done that, its quite possible that the PC crowd who was behind this assault on free speech may have won. Talk about a slippery slope.

Do not make the mistake of equating poor taste with racism, misogyny, homophobia, or any of the other ills that affect society.

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/16/08 01:33 PM

Who are you calling a "slippery slope"? ;)

IMHO taste marks the writer/speaker while the ills taint the reader/listener.
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Postby Dave Egleston » 07/16/08 01:34 PM

So..... How would you categorize Ursala?

I called Hans a "Crotch with two sets of twins -- Three if you count Pamela's" and by the way Pamela did some magic too......... using boob and pelvic thrusts for the misdirection.

I guess I need to stop calling no-talent good looking boy magicians wearing tight pants crotch-i-digitators and re-label them as penicians (or just dicks) in order to be gender specific with my insults.

This may be the first time I disagree with Kent Gunn but my daughters aren't offended by "Vagician" as much as they're offended by those who think a tight outfit will overcome a lack of talent ---- in any field.

Part of the problem is, those of us who were the last generation of children to be raised by parents rather than CRTs and "villages" find any reference to genitailia crude and embarrassing beyond words. Not so any more just watch any prime time show with all the wonderful commercials.

I think Mr Regal was being specific to those who rely on their looks and body to make up for the direspect they show magic and not to the hundreds of talented women and girls in magic.

There are just a few things in which I'm well versed, bad magic and insults are two of my specialties and this is a good word to cover both areas.

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Postby Fred Siegel » 07/16/08 02:04 PM

A few quick comments:

1. Kent, thanks for considering my post and pointing out points of agreement as well as disagreement.

2. Dustin, without more information I can't tell whether or not a reference to a magic wand is an example of a cultural bias against men. And the Ricky Jay insult, while ugly and cruel, seems directed at an individual, not to a group of people.

3. As I understand it, Mr. Goat, misogyny is related to power dynamics as well as "hatred" or "dislike." In this case, we are a group of boys who have controlled the treehouse for centuries. When a girl tries to enter our treehouse and does an imperfect job, we remove her power by reducing her to her genitalia. She is a vagina, not a person. By the way, this idea resonates with what Rocco said about how women shouldn't do magic, they should concentrate on the magic of childbirth. (Forgive the paraphrase--I don't have a transcript of the show.)

4. Finally, Jonathan, I can't imagine the members of this forum waxing anything... accept perhaps the carrot. (See, I can be a "wag" too.)

Fred
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Postby mrgoat » 07/16/08 02:24 PM

Fred Siegel wrote: As I understand it, Mr. Goat, misogyny is related to power dynamics as well as "hatred" or "dislike."


I don't mean to be a pedant. But I am going to be.

from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -

misogyny Audio Help [mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-]
noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
[Origin: 165060; < NL misogynia. See miso-, gyn-, -y3]

And from The Oxford Dictionary
misogyny
/misojni/

noun hatred of women.

ORIGIN from Greek misos hatred + gune woman.

No mention of power dynamics.

:)
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/16/08 02:30 PM

Fred Siegel wrote: without more information I can't tell whether or not a reference to a magic wand is an example of a cultural bias against men.


Oh please; its a dick joke for goodness sake, which is every bit equal to a vagina joke, and to pretend otherwise is nonsense. If a vagina joke is a cultural bias than so must be a dick joke.

Fred Siegel wrote:And the Ricky Jay insult, while ugly and cruel, seems directed at an individual, not to a group of people.


I was expecting this argument: The fact is that its very easy to conclude that Ms. Wilson clearly has a cultural bias against all portly old guys with a less than perfect complexions. So I was personally insulted by her comment. Bummer for mebut only because (when her hair, clothes, and makeup are right), Cintra Wilson can be pretty hot (shes on the right): http://www.mediabistro.com/content/orig ... C05116.jpg

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Postby Bill McFadden » 07/16/08 03:02 PM

At last, I'm beginning to grasp the rationale for "Andy Dick"!
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Postby Fred Siegel » 07/16/08 03:20 PM

Mr. Goat, if you really want to be a pedant you need to look further into the question of misogyny than a couple of dictionary definitions. The topic is a large one, and if you're going to discuss whether or not an act or person or community is misogynist, it pays to consider the cultural environment, which, in turn, is very much related to power dynamics.

But, who wants to be a pedant? For the purpose of this forum, let's forget the word "misogynist." Would it be fair to say that this term, vagician, is "very disrespectful to women"?

And, is that a good thing?
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Postby Kent Gunn » 07/16/08 03:49 PM

Dave,

I don't think you got the tenor of my rant. Please realize I spent 20 years on a submarine. There is no place on earth where political correctness or anything vaguely resembling good behavior is less exhibited. Vagician - my main complaint about that joke is actually that the pun isn't quite strong enough to instantly evoke the image of a huge labia with a set of hippity-hop rabbits sticking out of it.

I found the Ricky Jay joke funny as hell, until I realized the female person who made the crack would, no doubt, put me in the same catagory.

Herr Goat, I think clinically defining misogyny is a a bit narrow. When made neatly into an adjective I think many women would classify the vagician joke as misogynous. It implies that the only value the person has is genetalia-based. Catagorizing a person's value based solely on what they're packing beneath their undergarments to me implies a vulgar disregard for women. That leads back to hate, for me. I'd wager a quick search on the word, in current literature, would yield a far broader definition than the lousy dictionary you chose to quote.

Crap, just checked the Webster's second I have, same damn definition . . . Point to the goat!

I'm rambling and will thankfully now stop.
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Postby Fred Siegel » 07/16/08 03:56 PM

Dustin Stinett wrote:Oh please; its a dick joke for goodness sake, which is every bit equal to a vagina joke, and to pretend otherwise is nonsense. If a vagina joke is a cultural bias than so must be a dick joke.



Well, is a dick joke equivalent to a vagina joke? What if you're talking about a culture which is dominated by people with dicks? And what if the people with vaginas in this culture are usually relegated to the role of "person to be sawed in half" or "attractive assistant"?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/16/08 03:56 PM

If you're going to call a female magician a "vagician," then you must also call a male magician a "penician." Both are crude. Whether or not they're insulting is up to the person in whose company they are used.
I certainly wouldn't call any woman by that name.
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Postby mrgoat » 07/16/08 03:57 PM

Fred Siegel wrote: Would it be fair to say that this term, vagician, is "very disrespectful to women"?


I thank you for the tip I should ignore 2 dictionaries and kinda freestlye meanings of words to suit my point

But, no. I don't think it's disrespectful. It's a joke. Women have vaginas. They know this. This was a pun using that fact. How is that disrespectful?

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. And freedom to choose not to listen to/read/watch people who you don't find amusing is great to.
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Postby mrgoat » 07/16/08 04:01 PM

Kent Gunn wrote:Herr Goat, I think clinically defining misogyny is a a bit narrow. When made neatly into an adjective I think many women would classify the vagician joke as misogynous. It implies that the only value the person has is genetalia-based. Catagorizing a person's value based solely on what they're packing beneath their undergarments to me implies a vulgar disregard for women. That leads back to hate, for me. I'd wager a quick search on the word, in current literature, would yield a far broader definition than the lousy dictionary you chose to quote.

Crap, just checked the Webster's second I have, same damn definition . . . Point to the goat!


I will give you vulgar. It is. And is using a dictionary now classed as 'clinically defining'? I bloody hope not.

I don't believe it implies that the only virtue the woman has is her genitals. I think it's a damn joke. About vaginas. I know you American folk have issues about sex-ed and sexual activity, (all those virgin pledge things etc), but really. A vagina is a vagina and vaginas can be amusing. So can penises (penii?). Using genitals in a pun doesn't suggest hatred, disrespect or anything close. In my head. It is - as stated - a dick joke. (just about vaginas.)

(I don't think I've ever typed vagina so often in a post before. Let alone on a magic board)
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Postby Fred Siegel » 07/16/08 04:17 PM

Thanks for posting, Kent. I'm feeling pretty alone here.

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Postby mai-ling » 07/16/08 04:41 PM

my friend (who I mentioned in the above post)
and I, who I sometimes co-write songs with...
are going to go under the name 'the vagicians.'
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Postby Fred Siegel » 07/16/08 04:53 PM

That's fine, Mai-Ling. Choosing to be called a vagician might be empowering.

Having someone else call you a vagician... not so much.

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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/16/08 05:38 PM

Fred Siegel wrote:Well, is a dick joke equivalent to a vagina joke?


There is either equality in society or there is not. If a vagina joke is unacceptable, so must be a dick joke. To say a dick joke (my personal favorite being the one I wrote a few months ago: My dick is so big, the super-delegates have committed to it) has to be less offensive because of the male dominance in our societyso the girls get to have special dispensation for a while, just to be fairis counter-productive. You seem to be asking for society to, somehow, allow women to be more equal to make up for the inequalities they have suffered. That cannot be how it works, otherwise the scale never stops swinging.

Kent: The Oxford English Dictionary is not lousy and, even though Im in the same category, I still think the Ricky Jay joke is funny. :)

You both need to buy and read Mike Closes That Reminds Me. That book reminded me that we have to laugh at ourselves first before we can laugh at anyone else. And then its all goodand funny.

Fred: If Mai-Lings group calls themselves Vagicians, then everyone will be calling them Vagicians. Then there will be groups claiming that the name demeans all womenkind of like pole dancers (even though they have been quite popular on Americas Got Talent). Where do you think the outrage should end?

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Postby Kent Gunn » 07/16/08 05:58 PM

Dustin,

I'm an antiquarian. I don't think there's been a good American-English dictionary since Webster's second. I'm just stuffy. The Oxford isn't lousy, you're right. It is simply not as good as WII. I don't like some of the definitions in the Oxford. I find they pale in comparison to WII. I despise the fact that pronounciations I've been using for fifty years are no longer correct. If I don't change dictionaries, I don't have to be wrong?!

The Ricky Jay jibe was hilariously off-color. Unf**kable, I didn't even know the word existed. I look in the mirror. I see an old ugly fat man who definitely fits that bill. The best birth control for people, like me, is turning on the lights.

Please don't interpret my postings as those of some prude. I did mention hippity hop rabbits and womenly bits in the same sentence. In my initial post I only said the joke would've upset my grandmother. She's dead, she'll be fine. (at least she can't get upset at the joke). I wouldn't use the joke in mixed company. I'm not offended, I can't be offended. I don't want to offend other people, just for the sake of a knee-jerk reaction to a word.

The last time I was outraged was when I was negotiating the price of a donkey show in the Phillipines. The full gamut of available options was made stultifyingly clear to me. At that point I seriously considered entering the priesthood. It is is simultaneously amazing and repulsive what one can negotiate for in some places.

I've read Mr. Close's book. Every morning when I look in the mirror, I say, "I don't know who you are, but I'm going to shave your face" I then laugh at that funny man in the mirror.

I take neither myself, nor this particular rant on vaginas, poor taste and sensibilities very seriously. Now for something completely different while we're being off-color. I note a single woman in the room. She is obviously NOT easily put-off by blue material, so I offer this to the group.

What do nine out of ten abused women have in common?




They don't know when to SHUT UP!!!

That's a joke I routinely tell. It gets great laughs from groups composed of only men. If a single woman is present, nobody laughs. What does that all mean?
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Postby mai-ling » 07/16/08 06:01 PM

Fred Siegel wrote:That's fine, Mai-Ling. Choosing to be called a vagician might be empowering.

Fred


the co-writer is a man.
so he would be a vagician too.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 07/16/08 06:10 PM

Kent,

It just means you need to know your audience.

Some weeks ago I was in a meeting; a mixed group (gender and age-wise). I was still on pain meds (I had just had ankle surgery), so my self-control was not at its best.

An IT tech had to fix something in the room and had to crawl under the table, right where I was sitting. As the techa friend whom I call MacGyver (he can fix anything with a bent paperclip)got to his knees, I asked him if he wanted to earn an extra ten bucks.

Thats a damn funny joke.

Three people laughed (but Ill bet everyone wanted to laugh).

Even after I covered it by saying my foot (which was in an air cast) needed rubbing, I got in trouble. Sometimes you cannot un-ring the bell.

But they should have laughedthey would have felt better.

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Postby Brian Morton » 07/16/08 09:08 PM

Dustin Stinett wrote:I asked him if he wanted to earn an extra ten bucks.


Now that's funny. I'd use it. :)

As for the Cintra Wilson "unf**kable" line, let us recall how she tarred our entire art/profession:

"There has always been something grimy about magic. Even at its very best, it is a long con. Magic is based on tricks and secrecy, so traditionally, only pathetic, lonely people ever want to lie that much to get attention. Magicians are historically a sorry-assed lot, who keep company with flame-retardant midgets and frog-swallowers."

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Postby mai-ling » 07/16/08 09:22 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:If you're going to call a female magician a "vagician," then you must also call a male magician a "penician."


when people don't know how to say pianist properly,
it really sounds like they are calling us pianists,
a penis.
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Postby Todd Karr » 07/16/08 09:25 PM

Hi, everyone

As the guy who actually made up the term, I think we need a little context here. This isn't an apology by any means, but I'd like to clarify the use of the word in case anyone reads this thread casually!

David Regal and I worked closely on VH1's "Celebracadabra" and it was a grueling schedule. Anytime we could blow off steam with a little humor was a welcome break. David's levitating helium-filled blow-up doll was one such moment.

Somehow one day we got onto the topic of magic neologisms and I mentioned a few to him, including "vagician." Also on the very non-P.C. list: "mag hag": someone who's not a magician but loves hanging around with them; "cockjurer": a male magician strutting his manliness more than his magic; "manipubator": a magician stroking more than his ego with his endless card flourishes; "magicbation": similar to the latter.

The intent of "vagician" was obviously not aimed at ALL female magicians. I coined it for the dancers and magicians' girlfriends and wives whose mates or managers convinced them they could learn a few tricks and get by largely on their looks and the one-time novelty of a woman performing magic.

I often in fact like watching these acts for their humorously tacky aesthetics; I just don't want to see them on a paid show at a magic convention, and that's exactly what I was referring to. David didn't need to be ultra-cautious and include disclaimers about my word, really, because he correctly reported my exact definition of the term, which clearly pokes fun only at the hacks, not the serious students of magic.

Also: the "vagician" reference was not to the celebrities on the VH1 show. Kimberly Wyatt and Lisa Ann Walter are smart, top-notch entertainers, and both have been to my home as friends. Their hard work on "Celebracadabra" is there for all to see!

I don't need to go into this, but I hope anyone who knows me and my work will understand my commitment to equal rights in the arts. From the very first days of the company, I wanted to have female energy balancing the feel of our books, and my longtime friend and creative partner Katlyn Breene has always been The Miracle Factory's muse in our covers and featured prominently in our productions and ads; she has brought goddesses and fairies to our artwork and feminine archetypes to the vibe of our books.

In case anyone needs more background, I've worked to promote talented women magicians both in our books (Mystery School featured no less than EIGHT female magicians) and in my two-year post as Entertainment Director of the Magic Castle (booking ladies like Angela Funovits, Suzanne, and Joan DuKore).

Trust me: I have as little respect for hack male magicians as their female counterparts. My commitment, as always, has been to the highest quality in the magic art and it's my hope that my comment will stir up a little more scrutiny of bookings at national magic conventions and the like, to improve the level of both male and female performers on the bill.

The REAL insult in question here is the genre of act that doesn't put in real work, wastes the audience's time, and devalues our art!

In the meantime, please pick up some of our books and read up on some of the fascinating female performers in our history: Robert-Houdin's student Mademoiselle Benita Anguinet in Essential Robert-Houdin and The Magic of Robert-Houdin; the pioneering mindreader Gene Dennis in House of Mystery; Greta Annemann in The Secret Ways of Al Baker; Connie Benson in Roy Benson by Starlight; and Jen Adams, Katlyn Breene, Jade, Jennifer Pauls, Samina, Luna Shimada, Abbi Spinner, and Margaret Steele in Mystery School!
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/16/08 10:38 PM

If I see the word "f**k" appear here again, you're all going to be sent home with a note to your mama!

And I still think "vagician" is crude. The only person to whom it might apply is a stripper using her orifice for magic in some way: and BINGO BINGO BINGO that leads the conversation back to that talentless fool Ursula Martinez. She is a vagician, all right, and not much else.

And in case no one else has noticed, Cintra Wilson is an arrogant jerk.
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Postby Brian Morton » 07/16/08 10:42 PM

Hey, Todd, is a manupubator what you get when a move monkey grows up? :grin:

(Richard, sorry -- I tend not to think about language when it's someone else's quote. Flaws of a journalism background and all that.)

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Postby Bill Duncan » 07/17/08 12:21 AM

Kent Gunn wrote:That's a joke I routinely tell. It gets great laughs from groups composed of only men. If a single woman is present, nobody laughs. What does that all mean?

That the guys you know are overly susceptible to peer pressure?
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Postby Kent Gunn » 07/17/08 01:05 AM

RK,

My apologies for using the F word in your house. Please don't tell my mother, she swears like a sailor and would laugh at both of us. Since you thought it was inappropriate, I apologize for my usage, nonetheless.

Bill,
I think the joke is funny because it has an unexpected and socially charged punchline. Nobody (in their right mind) thinks physical abuse of the fairer sex is funny. It's the unexpected twist.

I was really trying to find a parallel joke for comparison. With you I failed. I hope the joke didn't offend you. If it did, I do apologize to you as well. I was raised by wolves.

How did I miss the Ursula portion of this thread. I feel so . . . left out. Who is Ursula? Is this a female magician I missed? Does she do blue material?
Last edited by Kent Gunn on 07/17/08 01:07 AM, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: Who is Ursula added.
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