Tommy Wonders- Ring, Watch and Wallet-Mint, New in box F/S on eBay

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Postby brownbeauty » 07/02/08 06:00 PM

Tommy Wonders- Ring, Watch and Wallet-Mint, New in box. For pictures and description go to.... ebay
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Postby Bill Duncan » 07/03/08 02:11 AM

Is this an authorized product, or was it made by Tommy Wonder? It's not clear form the EBay page.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/03/08 12:53 PM

I just got an e-mail from Dick Koornwinder stating that the family of Tommy Wonder is very angry about this. It is not an authorized product.

There was a big stink about this in the green room about a year ago when Ken Winters was evidently "confused" about an e-mail he had from Tommy authorizing him to make ONE set of these for his own use.

Ken supposedly withdrew these from the market.

The estate is currently negotiating with a European producer to make these.

Just to clarify maatters, I should add that over a year ago, Dick Koornwinder and Frank Bemelman both asked me to kind of keep an eye on things concerning Tommy and the unauthorized manufacture of his products over here.

Dick has more contact with the world of magic than Frank does.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/03/08 05:01 PM

I received an e-mail from brownbeauty explaining the situation. He cancelled the auction after Frank Bemelman got in touch with him.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/04/08 02:38 PM

I got a PM from brownbeauty, explaining that he felt that the item was authorized, because he had purchased the book, which authorized him to make one of these items.

Here's the way this works. If a book or a magazine article gives you permission to make an item for your own use, while retaining manufacturing rights to the author, you can make one (or have one made for you) and you can use it. But you can't sell it.
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Postby Roger M. » 07/04/08 04:26 PM

Is there not a big difference between manufacturing and item, and selling a single "book authorized" item?

Each book sold authorizes the manufacture one single item.
If a book owner makes that one item and then decides to sell it, it's still a single authorized item as long as the book owner doesn't make another one.

The author of the book obviously plans on the potential for a single item to be made for each book sold, and selling that single item to somebody else because it doesn't suit you doesn't change the balance of books sold compared to number of items made.

Not to be intentionally contrary Bill, just thinking out loud.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/05/08 03:28 AM

Actually, that's not the case. I don't know how many books you have written or published, but I would estimate that out of the two books by Borodin that I have translated and published in English and the three books by Punx that I have translated, fewer than 1% of the readers have actually constructed or commissioned an item from any of the books. Even with illusion plans, there is a tendency of performers to collect as many different versions of an item as possible to decide on which one they want to build or which combinations they want to build.

The books normally state that the purchaser may construct the item for his own personal use. If we want to remain ethical, then the book should be sold with the item. Considering the relative cost of the Tommy Wonder book to the item, that would be a very small surcharge, indeed. After all, the PERFORMING rights to the item are also conveyed by the ownership of the book.

Of course, this assumes that people are ethical. There are other considerations as well.

Clearly, from the communication that I have had from representatives of Tommy's estate, there is an active effort underway to prevent this from happening.

There are things about this that I have not posted and probably will not post, because the situation is actually stickier than we need to go into here.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/05/08 10:26 AM

I would question whether you are prohibited from selling the item. If you construct a single item for your own use from instructions in a book you've purchased, and you decide not to use the item, you can probably sell the ONE (and just the one) you've made. That is not, I believe, against the law.
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Postby Jim Riser » 07/05/08 01:44 PM

The whole Tommy Wonder situation has been clouded by a number of factors.

1. Getting info from "the Tommy Wonder Estate" third hand through Bill Palmer is a joke. Any info should come directly from the "estate" or its legal rep - not self appointed guardians of all magic ethics. Any info will always be biased anyway. If Frank has something to say, let us hear directly from him. He certainly had enough of an internet connection to quickly piecemeal sell off his brother's machinery/tools.

2. Apparently it would be all right to buy multiple copies of The Books of Wonder, make whatever you want to, and sell these items along with a copy of the book. I seriously doubt that this is what Tommy Wonder would have wanted.

3. The shop where I purchased my copy of The Books of Wonder had them shrink wrapped. This means that I, as a purchaser, was unaware of any restrictions on construction/selling of the items within. There was no notice of any restrictions visible to the purchaser as is done with computer software. Therefore, this "agreement" between the publisher and purchaser was one sided only. There was no agreement signed by the purchaser acknowleging agreement to any type of terms or limitations. I seriously doubt that any claims or suits brought by the "estate" against a purchaser/builder would get any place at all. Even with a signed agreement/contract as with The Harbin Book it would be difficult and expensive to enforce things. We have all seen how well the Harbin agreement worked out.

4. I know for a fact that Tommy Wonder did give permission to have single items built by certain builders. Because permission was granted does not mean that the builders accepted the commission. Having all of these "unused permissions" floating around further clouds the whole issue. Many of us builders have routinely turned down requests for making Tommy Wonder items. This has been done out of respect for Tommy Wonder not because of any comments from seft appointed ethics monitors. I doubt that legally anything could be done to stop production of Tommy Wonder items. This leaves things controlled by the decisions of the individual builders themselves. I do not see this situation changing anytime soon.

5. Since Rudy had only one set made for the effect in question and was following the publisher's guidelines, I feel that he had every right to sell the custom built apparatus. Intimidation attempts by net nammies and cyber bullies will not stop such sales of custom made items - nor should it.

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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/05/08 03:23 PM

Jim:

I am not a self-appointed guardian of the estate. I was asked specifically by Tommy's brother, through Dick Koornwinder to help them oversee what was going on.

If you have further comments, please e-mail me directly. There are things you are assuming about this that are completely wrong.

Bill
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Postby Jim Riser » 07/05/08 05:23 PM

Bill;
Statements should come directly from the "estate" (Frank?) or a legal rep - not from second or third hand people. Period. If Frank wants to protect his brother's legacy, he needs to get his hands dirty. He needs to do the communicating himself. He does seem to be able to sell items on ebay. So he has the internet connections to make the plans and wishes of the "estate" known to all.

There is much going on that you do not know about concerning select items in The Books of Wonder. I'll not go in to details here. If Frank does not get his act together and get involved very quickly, chances are that he will see a glut of unauthorized Tommy Wonder items on the worldwide market. The demand is there, is not being filled, and is not apparently soon to be filled by the "estate".

It's only a matter of time before some greedy SOB starts meeting the demand. Your comments above about throwing in a book with each pirated item made/sold does not help Tommy Wonder's legacy. This will only help to make such items legit in the mind of those buying and selling such pirated items.

Frank needs to let magic enthusiasts know his plans so that they do not seek out clandestine sources. It would be a real shame to see his brother's gems being mass marketed - especially in inferior quality. The clock is ticking and buyers are very impatient.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/05/08 07:23 PM

Jim:

The depth of your knowledge never ceases to amaze me.

I will not communicate with you further on this forum. If you have anything to say to me, you know my e-mail address.

If you wish to see the e-mails I have been sent by Frank's representative, I will be happy to send them to you, but right now, I respectfully suggest that you butt out of this one.
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Postby Jim Riser » 07/05/08 08:52 PM

"butt out" ... hmmmm sounds like another example of attempted intimidation and cyber bullying. I'll "butt out" when I am ready or RK asks. I do not jump at suggestions from net nannies. I consider such suggestions to be sorry attempts at power games. Some of us have laughed off bullies since childhood and go on with our lives. Suggest all you want.

I need not see any emails from Frank. I know what is coming if he does not get his act together soon. It's a real shame. I only hope that I never have a reason to be able to say "I told you so" regarding the legacy of Tommy Wonder.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/05/08 10:45 PM

IMHO Tommy Wonder's legacy is kept by those who he "got to" and who have taken the initiative to follow his example.

As mentioned above - there's something in magic that requires getting ones hands dirty. This was also described in "The Prestige".

Okay there's truly no stopping those who would sell what's described in those books - maybe slow them down in the open market but not stop the actual profiteering. What we can do, those of us who care to, is support his relatives should they offer product and let our financial gratitude help them along after their loss. - IMHO
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Postby Sammy Jackson » 07/06/08 12:59 AM

To go off at a slight tangent to this discussion I once purchase a second hand magic book in Amsterdam. It was written by Jerry Mentzer and the title is "magician nitely" I must have purchased this book around 20 years ago.

Mention of the name "Bemelman" on this thread prompted something in my memory. I just looked at the inscription inside the front cover. It says "12 juli 1976" and underneath is written in someone's handwriting saying "Josh Bemelman, Valkertr 19, Lisse Holland" Underneath is a signature that looks like J. Bemelman although it is a little indistinct.

I am now beginning to wonder (no pun intended) if I own a book that was once owned by Tommy Wonder and that it is his handwriting inside. Since I purchased the book in Holland and since it seems to have a Dutch address it does make one wonder.

Was Tommy Wonder's real name Josh Bemelman? If it was it looks like I have a book once owned and autographed by him. It gives me a strange feeling.

Is it worth anything? Just curious.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/06/08 04:09 PM

Jim Riser wrote:"butt out" ... hmmmm sounds like another example of attempted intimidation and cyber bullying. I'll "butt out" when I am ready or RK asks. I do not jump at suggestions from net nannies. I consider such suggestions to be sorry attempts at power games. Some of us have laughed off bullies since childhood and go on with our lives. Suggest all you want.

I need not see any emails from Frank. I know what is coming if he does not get his act together soon. It's a real shame. I only hope that I never have a reason to be able to say "I told you so" regarding the legacy of Tommy Wonder.
Jim


Actually, Jim, if anyone can be accused of "cyberbullying" it is YOU. There are things in this matter that need not be laid open in this forum. Frank is handling all the magical affairs through Dick Koornwinder. My e-mails are from Dick, not from Frank, although Dick has sent me messages from Frank.

Dick and Frank are both aware of the sensitivity of this situation, and YOU aren't making it any better by your senseless, malinformed posts.

There are currently negotiations underway to get Tommy's material out through approved channels. I am not permitted to say any more than that here.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/06/08 05:02 PM

Yes, Sammy, Tommy's real name was Jos Bemelman.
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Postby Jim Riser » 07/06/08 06:46 PM

Bill;
As a builder who has been approached to make unauthorized Tommy Wonder items to be sold under the radar, I am in a position to know things that you do not. YOU have no clue as to what is going on. But apparently you want to be a big shot and one of the blessed with inside info. That's fine. Live in your dream world of superior information. Just keep in mind that you are in on only one side of the inside info. The question is "which side will make it to market first?" Forgive me for bruising your ego. BTW - I thought you wrote that you were not going to reply to my comments on this forum any more.

Jonathan;
Yes, I agree that the legacy is in Tommy Wonder's thought processes which he was generous enough to share through books and DVDs.

The threat to this legacy comes from the very real possibility that effects of his might well come to market that have been redesigned for quick/easier construction thus eliminating many of the subtle details which made them special. These pirated copies would possibly become known as the Tommy Wonder version - when in reality they are stripped down versions made only to sell. I see this possibility as a way of tarnishing the Tommy Wonder legacy. Do you see my concern?

Jim
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Postby Richard Mendez » 07/08/08 10:37 AM

Yes, Bill. Perhaps, we should refrain from "embarassing ourselves" by trying to help educate and inform the magic community about the issues at hand unless Jim has "heard of us" and deemed us worthy.
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Postby Mad Jake » 07/08/08 02:11 PM

Richard, was that sarcasm? Oh here we go again! Tag, looks like Bill is it this time~!

Cyberbullying? Cmon' Jim, you yourself perfected the very art.

Jim, Bill knows more than you think that you know that he knows that we all know, that he knows, that you don't know. But who knows?
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/08/08 02:14 PM

Oh no. Since Jim has made himself a de facto moderator of this forum, and since Jim has decided what the "rules" are for posting on this subject, I'll let him go right ahead. He's doing just fine. ;)
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Postby Dick Koornwinder » 07/08/08 02:24 PM

I dont read this forum every day. I think it is time to clarify a few things.

First a few facts. Brownbeauty told the readers of this forum on 10/04/07 he owns a RWW made by Ken Winters. Comparing the pictures of the two versions he has been offered recently on eBay with the pictures of the Winters rip-off are proving Brownbeauty has been in the possession of at least three RWWs. This does sound like somebody who has constructed or has asked somebody to construct a single item for his own use and then decides a couple of times not to use the item. Studying the pictures on eBay it looks like the prop is coming with instructions, probably in case the buyer is not in the possession of Tommys books, and is further packed in a beautiful presentational box. It looks like a wonderful dealers item. Brownbeauty knows also the two versions on eBay are the same as the one Hocus Pocus has sold some time ago. So there must be an expert machinist who has made at least three RWWs. That makes sense because a craftsman dont like it to construct just one copy. Maybe he has to invest in special machinery and of course this must be factored into the final price of the item. More about this subject you can read on the site of Mr. Riser. http://www.jamesriser.com/McAbee/Rings.html I guess Brownbeauty has realized this himself also and posted on the forum a few hours after his first posting on 10/04/07: If anyone who owns the Wonder books decides they would like to have one made, I know the builder who has a wealth of experience to do the job and I would be glad to pass on his info.
Well this all sounds not very ethical.

I promised to clarify a few things. Frank Bemelman, the brother of Tommy, has not the knowledge about what is going on in our world of magic and that is very understandable I think. This is not the first incident and let me tell you Frank hasnt a high opinion of the ethical behavior in our world. Fortunately he has also met very nice magicians. On Tommys website you can read: All 'Magic' related business is handled by Dick Koornwinder. Please contact Dick if you have any questions.
Tommy Wonder has many friends all over the world. I cannot monitor the whole world so Im very happy if Tommys friends are warning me if they are noticing something concerning the legacy of Tommy. In my conversations with Bill Palmer I call him my most important Whistleblower in the USA and encourage him to let me know if he notices any unlawfulness and Im entitled to ask him that because I belong to the estate. So if Mr. Riser is calling Bill Palmer a self appointed guardian of all magic ethics Im not amused and that is an understatement. Tommy has spoken quite often with me about Mr. Riser and with respect. We have also discussed the dilemmas an expert machinist is encountering with all those special requests. I dont recognize that Mr. Riser in his postings of last week. I think Mr. Riser is still too young to behave himself as an old bitter man.

An example. Another friend of Tommy Wonder noticed an unauthorized TW item in the catalogue of Joe Stevens. Yes.a problem but with a happy end. Joe Stevens contacted the estate and now Joe can tell his customers he is selling an authorized TW item. Simple asking can solve many problems. Maybe some of you know I have some experiences myself with many rip-off versions of one of my tricks. Tenyo was the first party ever asking me permission and you know the outcome.

Kind regards,

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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/08/08 02:52 PM

Thanks for clarifying this for us, Dick.
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Postby Jim Riser » 07/08/08 04:24 PM

Well, I guess I've been crowned king of cyberbullies. That should well qualify me to recognize the tactics used by others! At least I do not proudly call myself "The Swatter".

I'm just pointing out that there are those in the magic community who are seeking to find builders for unauthorized Tommy Wonder items. These guys are getting sneaky. The last guy FAXed me drawings for assorted metal parts and wanted a price quote. Looking over the drawings, it was clear that these were parts for a watch to nested box as explained in The Books of Wonder. Apparently this guy wanted to have parts made by several sources and would then assemble them. I do a lot of nonmagic type of custom work and might not have caught this sneak in action. I am merely pointing out that there is a race to the marketplace going on behind the scenes. If pointing this out makes me terrible or bitter, so be it.

Protecting the "rights" to this stuff is virtually impossible and the first to market will skim off most of the profit to be made. The number of people watching this thread is an indication of the interest and potential market. If only 10% of the readers purchased items at say $1500 (low ball price estimate), that would be a sizable amount of cash. This is the treasure the pirates seek. And that is for only one item.

It's hardly my fault that certain people do not want to hear such things. Apparently I'm the bad guy for mentioning it. Soon the pirates will realize where they can get parts made and run with it. That ought to keep "The Swatter" busy.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/08/08 05:28 PM

I still do not see any reason why someone who buys the book cannot bring it to a builder, point to a trick, and say, "Please make one of these for me." If there's anything legally wrong with that, I'd appreciate if someone would point it out.
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Postby RogueMD » 07/08/08 05:31 PM

I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest as Tommy Wonder happens to be my all time favorite magician.

With regards to his props from his books; I never considered building some of the more elaborate effects simply because I don't have the "know-how" and presumably, the proper "tools" and "equipment" necessary for such a task. I always presumed that if I were to do the effect, I would have to have it made (at great expense!) by somebody such as Mr. Riser or others familiar with this sort of thing.

It would seem that this endeavor would fall into the "questionable ethics" catagory which is something I would never intentionally do(...again, out of respect for Mr Wonder).
But, I question whether Tommy Wonder would have been against somebody having something built for their own use; knowing that few of us have the capability to manufacture items ourselves.
Of course, the point would be moot if he (or his estate) were actively selling said item.

I dont think the issue is clear at this point...at least for me(or, until an AUTHORIZED vendor comes forth with these products)

Am I fundamentally wrong here? I sincerely would want to do the "right" thing.

Michael
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Postby Frank Bemelman » 07/08/08 06:11 PM

You should ask yourself if your motivations come from pure love for magic or from making some easy money. If it is pure love for magic that drives you, you are probably safe. Ask Dick when in doubt.

Being legally wrong or right has little to do with it. It is all about ethics. Everyone here knows exactly where that line is. No need to get smart here.

Having said that, Dick Koornwinder is the man to discuss business related issues with.

Best wishes,
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 07/08/08 06:15 PM

Hi Frank,

Thanks for visiting here.

Best wishes from NY,

Jon
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/08/08 06:17 PM

Thanks, Frank.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 07/08/08 06:23 PM

Not to confuse Mr. Riser with facts; however, "The Swatter" is not a self-conferred title. I was first called "The Swatter" by Josh the Superfluous on the Magic Cafe, in a post on March 1, 2006 in which he stated

"I wasn't worried. I know you can take it as well as you dish it out. And let's admit it, when you dish it out it's not exactly sugar coated. But that's OK. The strong will survive, and the weak won't fly around like gnats. Thanks for being our swatter. -Josh"


That's when I added the "title" to my signature line at the Magic Cafe.

By the way, I don't use that title over here. So it kind of makes it irrelevant to our discussion.
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Postby Jim Riser » 07/08/08 06:38 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I still do not see any reason why someone who buys the book cannot bring it to a builder, point to a trick, and say, "Please make one of these for me." If there's anything legally wrong with that, I'd appreciate if someone would point it out.


Richard;
I do not think anyone has a problem with doing that.

It begins to get sticky when the owner later realizes that he can not put the effect across and wants to recoup his investment. Technically it is an authorized prop (as permitted by the statement in the books); but not made by a licensed builder for the props (which was never a requirement anyway).

If a builder makes a number of the items as authorized by the books for separate individuals, things should be going as per the normal system. Now if these separate individuals all decide that they really can not do the trick and put them on the market as being made by builder X, then it appears that the builder is mass producing them. In reality this would not have been the case; but the builder gets jumped on anyway.

This is only one reason a builder would turn down requests to build these props. There are other very good reasons too. If anyone is really interested, I could explain one or two of the other reasons.

There are lots of people who are interested in acquiring such props. Lots of interest translates into a potential marketplace. This is where the would be pirates enter. They care nothing about Tommy Wonder's genius. They only want to provide a product to fill a perceived need within the marketplace. These are the guys who could very well dominate the market with mass produced less than desirable items.
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Postby Brian Morton » 07/08/08 08:16 PM

Jim Riser wrote:Technically it is an authorized prop (as permitted by the statement in the books); but not made by a licensed builder for the props (which was never a requirement anyway).


Jim, I'm curious.

I bought, direct from Les Smith, vols. 1 and 2 of "Keep The Wheels Turning." Inside each book are actual Thayer plans, schematics, for such classic illusions as the Doll House, Disembodied Princess, the Buzz Saw, etc. I believe that Les told me himself that I could make the illusions myself with these plans (if I had any carpentry talent that extended beyond turning screws and tightening bolts.

If I built said illusions (or more accurately, blew up the schematics and had someone make them for me), would they be "authorized?"

With curiosity,
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Postby Jim Riser » 07/08/08 11:21 PM

Brian;
That's an easy one. Just call Owen Magic Supreme. We do know there were instructions to NOT build at least one illusion (safety concerns).

I also bought the two books when they came out. They are wonderful history books. Remember that some of the drawings date back to before 1920. This very much dates the style of the various illusion boxes, as well as, how they were built. Most of the illusions feature hardwood frames with ply panels. More modern construction might make use of aluminum, fiberglass, and more modern panel materials. The old illusions were heavy. Newer materials allow for lighter weights and more space in the concealment areas relative to the size of the boxes.

The drawings would make a good starting point for designing your own variations of the various illusions. Also be aware of the differences in sizes of females since the drawings were made. Many females are too tall to fit the old boxes if built to original dimensions.

In addition, there have been improvements to the originals over the years. Also to be considered is that the methods shown are not completely accurate as to methods (see Spiker and Levitation for two examples).

Nonetheless, they are wonderful books.
Jim
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Postby Roger M. » 07/09/08 12:31 AM

What's the deal with ragging on Jim?

He's said MULTIPLE times that he DOESN'T build the props, and only puts forth the questions about when it might be OK to do so, and when it's not OK to do so.

Folks need to chill the ____ out.

Everybody loves Tommy Wonder, and nobody who's posted to this thread has done anything resembling taking his name or memory in vain.

Or is it just about continuing the argument until somebody feels like they've won?

BTW, this is ALL ethics, there's no "law" anywhere to be found in this discussion. When it's ethics we're discussing, let's do it from a position of polite discourse as opposed to the insults and put downs.

Or maybe I'm just overly sensitive and need my rest........
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Postby Mad Jake » 07/09/08 01:14 AM

Roger M. wrote:What's the deal with ragging on Jim?

He's said MULTIPLE times that he DOESN'T build the props, and only puts forth the questions about when it might be OK to do so, and when it's not OK to do so.

Folks need to chill the ____ out.

Everybody loves Tommy Wonder, and nobody who's posted to this thread has done anything resembling taking his name or memory in vain.

Or is it just about continuing the argument until somebody feels like they've won?

BTW, this is ALL ethics, there's no "law" anywhere to be found in this discussion. When it's ethics we're discussing, let's do it from a position of polite discourse as opposed to the insults and put downs.

Or maybe I'm just overly sensitive and need my rest........


Roger,
go back to the beginning and pick up where Jim came back at Bill with some inuendos and name calling and it rolled from there.

While some still exibit more human qualities these days primal instinct to react to name calling etc is inevidible in alot of cases these days.

Some times this makes Jim look bad, as it would with anyone, but I wouldn't so much call it Ragging. I made an earlier post that was nothing short of blabber just to lighten the atmosphere. This is just the way Jim is, we should accept it, embrace it and just move on.

Jim is a helluva a machinest and craftsman, bar none. I think we can all agree that the only interest and acceptibility is to help the TW name and estate. That should remain the focus and any help that the Wonder estate gets should be welcome.

Ken Winters came to me over and over for marketing the TW Cups & Balls routine. I insisted that he have the estate call me or hardcopy mail me expressing permission to do so. This never happend, so neither did the cups. I offered to make one personal set for him as per the books outline, which I agree with Jim is not a violation of the rights of the estate. Ken opted not to due to price and expressed an appauling reply to my quote on making a custom set of chucks and single set of cups.

The idea of "Can't we all just get along?" is a nice idea, but a more realistic one is to all work together, I think that is a more realistic approach.

So why don't we all give it a shot, try it out, work together and try to help the estate, it just may work.

Jake
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Postby Mad Jake » 07/09/08 01:28 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I still do not see any reason why someone who buys the book cannot bring it to a builder, point to a trick, and say, "Please make one of these for me." If there's anything legally wrong with that, I'd appreciate if someone would point it out.


Richard,
isn't this the case with the Paul Osbourne "illusionettes" that appear in Genii?

I'm not an illusion builder, thats an art in itself. I would think if I saw one that would fit my act that Paul/Genii wouldn't mind if I sought out a professional to do it, again as long as it was not for profitable gain by retailing or reselling it.

Jake
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/09/08 10:54 AM

Yes, of course.
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Postby Dave V » 07/09/08 02:30 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I still do not see any reason why someone who buys the book cannot bring it to a builder, point to a trick, and say, "Please make one of these for me." If there's anything legally wrong with that, I'd appreciate if someone would point it out.


Neither do I. I think the line gets crossed somewhere further down the line if they ask "Please make one of these for me" and then they go back a few months later and say "I sold the last one, can you make another?" and a few months (weeks, whatever) he asks "...and another?"

I think it's all in the motivation of the original owner. Did he honestly have one made for his own use, see that it wasn't for him and sold it? I see little wrong with that. It was made by/for him. It's his property to do with as he pleases. If that's the case and he sells it then why does he need another one?
"I still play with a full deck, I just shuffle slower"
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