Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Discuss the historical aspects of magic, including memories, or favorite stories.
swamy
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Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby swamy » July 2nd, 2008, 5:53 am

Did the Renaissance period(14th and 15th century A.D.) had an impact on the magic to be recognised as a form of entertainment ?

Bob Farmer
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Bob Farmer » July 2nd, 2008, 7:28 am

Yes. Footnotes to follow.

swamy
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby swamy » July 2nd, 2008, 9:18 am

Is there any reference published in any book ?

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 2nd, 2008, 9:52 am

One might expect the recovery of so much literature and the ideas contained would have some fairly obvious effect on the resources available to those who use technology to amuse - as we do.

Seems like asking if the industrial revolution had an effect upon the consumer market for magic related goods IMHO.
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on July 2nd, 2008, 9:53 am, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: kinda hard to hide the truth with a thumbtip but we try anyway.

swamy
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby swamy » July 2nd, 2008, 10:36 am

Interesting comparision.

I have tried to search through internet but nothing specific I could get.

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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Jacky Kahan » July 2nd, 2008, 12:35 pm


Bill Palmer
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Bill Palmer » July 10th, 2008, 11:49 pm

Actually, the Renaissance spans a much larger time period than that. Most historians give it a span of late 14th century (in Italy) through the 16th century and into the 17th century (in England).

In Engand, the 14th century would generally be considered late Medieval and part of the 15th would be considered early Renaissance.

Historical periods generally are not switched on and off. People don't just get up in the morning and say, "My gosh! It's the 15th century! I need to get off my duff or I'll miss the beginning of the Renaissance!" (or the end, if you were in Italy.)

BTW, this may be where you will need to actually visit a library. Do some research among books. Find a few books on history and read them, so you have more knowledge about a period than just when the battles happened.
Bill Palmer, MIMC

swamy
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby swamy » July 11th, 2008, 7:49 am

The amount of FREEDOM the individual got during the Renaissance period appears to be main source for magic to be perceived as entertainment.

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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Ray Haddad » December 8th, 2008, 3:45 pm

Have you tried Scot's Discoverie of Witchcraft?

http://www.conjuror.com/archives/discov ... verie.html

There are some real insights there. Also, try The Golden Bough for 19th and 20th century perspectives on all kinds of magic influences in religion and life as we know it. There are lots of references to the Rennaissance period.
http://www.bartleby.com/196/

Have fun in your research.
Best Regards,
Ray
http://www.rayhaddad.com

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 8th, 2008, 4:07 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:Yes. Footnotes to follow.


Waiting for those footnotes

Greg Edmonds
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Greg Edmonds » December 15th, 2008, 4:28 am

You might enjoy Philip Butterworth's Magic On The Early English Stage, published in 2006.

Here's a review I wrote for Amazon.com in early 2007:

Coming, as it does, from an academic author and the Cambride University Press, there's no surprise in the scholarly, and often pedantic, character of the prose found in this publication. It draws heavily from classical conjuring-related texts such as Scot's Discoverie of Witchraft, and to a lesser degree, Ady's A Candle in the Dark. The extended quotations in the text are of a font size that put a strain on my aging eyes as well, but they'll likely prove no problem for most readers.

Author Butterworth excels in bringing to light numerous passages from contemporary medieval and renaissance financial documents, listing various jugglers (conjurers), expressing their play dates, the contents of their programs and what they were paid. His listing of connections to the fraudulent use of trickery by the church, among other institutions and individuals, is also quite interesting, as are the conjuring-related "feats of activity." The theatrical "special effects" noted are very interesting as well. As noted, a fair amount of the content is found in other works, including the profiles of several personalities the author sketches. Butterworth credits Edwin Dawes (who wrote the Foreword), perhaps the world's leading current exponent of magic history, for his assistance. Dawes' hand seems apparent in some of the profiles provided, which is a good thing. This text is, however, unique in its combination of information from the periods discussed. I believe it's safe to say there exists no other work to date capable of matching Magic on the Early English Stage's comprehensive content. All of the information is thoroughly credited and annotated. Indeed, the Appendix and Notes sections comprise nearly a third of the book. The book's price is more in line with what one would expect to pay for a college text than for a smallish hardbound tome for the general reader. As a student of magic history, though, I very much enjoyed it and believe those with similar interests will as well.

The current list price is $101.00 and up on Amazon.

If you're asking about the impact of ceremonial (intellectual) magic, ritual magic or witchcraft, of course, there are literally hundreds of publications addressing these topics and their many subcategories.

Greg

opie
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby opie » December 15th, 2008, 11:01 am

You might want to read some of these articles/books/etc., regarding Renaissance magic:

http://www.scribd.com/search?query=RENA ... &x=20&y=13

There are a lot of references...

opie

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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 15th, 2008, 12:20 pm

Was the notion of compound interest propagated during the Renaissance?

How about the notion of a limited liability corporation as a legal entity (person) ?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Greg Edmonds
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Greg Edmonds » December 15th, 2008, 3:40 pm

In my above reference to Butterworth's Magic on the Early English Stage, I recognize that I was reticent in not mentioning the fact that the majority of the juggling "magic" performances mentioned were not, in fact, performed on a stage at all, but were conducted in the streets, at fairs or other open areas.

I don't know if there were such things as Limited Liability Companies at the time (though I tend to doubt they then existed). Depending upon where the magician/juggler performed, if he was too convincing, he might have been threatened with burning at the stake, his insurance, in this instance, was to reveal the secrets of his "tricks" to the powers that were. Faced with death, how many of us would refuse to reveal the method?

Greg

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Ray T. Stott
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Ray T. Stott » December 15th, 2008, 9:08 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Was the notion of compound interest propagated during the Renaissance?

How about the notion of a limited liability corporation as a legal entity (person) ?


Hello, Jon!
Compound interest was being calculated my Pre-Colombian Mayans in Central America. Although I feel certain that the modern formula for simple compounding Image was not in their minds, they did, in fact, practice the use of it on cacao beans, a valuable and portable coin of the realm. Really!

The conceptualization and practice of multiple expansion banking is attributed to the Renaissance Medici family in Florence and double entry bookkeeping (debits must = credits) was the brain child of Luca Pacioli in his Summa de arithmetica, geometrica, proportioni et proportionalit - 1494.

Pacioli's comcepts were later incorporated into a modern mathematical stochastic statistical prediction model by Bill Fair and Earl Isaac that is widely known today


Image

The invention of the first water powered abacus and the now well known; Chose 2 from column 1 and 1 from column 2 Chinese take out menu that has become the standard in American Chop Suey joints were these unknown "Oriental" geniuses -

Image Image

Both concepts were introduced to an anxious America by a German immigrant Fluegel horn builder and itinerate magician
Image


Now remember you will all be responsible for this material and there be a ten True/False questions and one essay question quiz on this material on Friday that will count for 25% of your final grade!

Sister Diesel Locomotive - My sixth grade history teacher at The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields.

It's not about the magic; it's about the daily box office gross.

swamy
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby swamy » December 16th, 2008, 1:27 am

There are aspects to an effect:
1. The relation between what should have happened logically and what actually happens. The audience gets amused with the Illogical conclusion.

2. The unexplained or the secret behind certain facts or experiences.


It is the second point that was in focus during the Renaisssance period so as to enlighten the society. Later these 2 aspects were used to entertain the audience.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 16th, 2008, 10:10 am

swamy, what do you mean by enlighten?

by 'logically' do you mean something like: if things were as they appear - what would happen if I were to perform the actions of the performer?

puzzled by item 2 as nature has no secrets and facts are social agreements about experience.


Looking for more,

Jon

PS the basic linquistic issues are discussed in that beginner's text "The Structure of Magic Volume One" by Bandler under the section about well formed statements and using the meta-model to get the unspoken into plain language - so Asif tells me presuming folks want to do other.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Michael Kamen
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Michael Kamen » December 16th, 2008, 10:24 am

Perhaps Swami would accept the word "incongruous" rather than "illogical." Then we might describe the relation between what would be expected or congruous with the laws of physics vs. incongruous. The same humor principal should apply.
Michael Kamen

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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby David Alexander » December 16th, 2008, 6:27 pm

"...facts are social agreements about experience."

So all the people who didn't socially agree about gravity floated away a long time ago?

Or the folks who don't socially agree that the Earth is round fell off one of the edges?

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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 16th, 2008, 7:08 pm

David Alexander wrote:"...all the people who didn't socially agree about gravity ...


To extract meaning from your text requires some understanding of what you mean by gravity and floating - which are ... you guessed it... social agreements about how sounds and text and confirmed observations correlate.

For example we likely agree that "grass is green" based upon experience though something about "the sun will come up in a few hours" misses some rather ominous presuppositions which bring up the very useful notions behind how we go about shifting from being surprised by things to expecting things - our strange friend the idea of confidence who encourages us to act "as if" and find out what happens next.

The map is not the terrain. How we make temporary maps of the terrain with some odd features is part of conjuring. :)

swamy
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby swamy » December 17th, 2008, 10:28 am

What is meant by "Enlighten":
Today audience knows that secrets behind the effects exists and they enjoy the effects. In earliear days the existence of secret itself was not known and the ignorance prevailed. It was during the Renaissance period, efforts were being made to remove ignorance.

Knowing the existence of secrets is one aspect and knowing how the effect is performed is another aspect.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 17th, 2008, 10:45 am

thanks swamy, ignorance prevails.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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magicam
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Re: Impact on magic during the Renaisssance period

Postby magicam » January 28th, 2009, 9:51 pm

swamy wrote:Did the Renaissance period(14th and 15th century A.D.) had an impact on the magic to be recognised as a form of entertainment ?


Hi swamy,

I'm not sure I really understand your question. Are you asking if society's views on magic changed during this era? If so, which society/culture interests you?

Or are you assuming that during this period magic came to be regarded as entertainment and wondering what happened during this period to cause such a change in the public perception?


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