Card Warp

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Postby Alpen » 06/09/08 11:26 AM

Hey All,

I had addressed this in another thread, and failing to get a response get, I thought I'd post it here...

The question is concerning Paul Green's Card Warp Finale. I saw someone do this a while ago and attribute it to Paul Green, saying that Mr. Green only tipped this in person and not to the masses. I tried to correct the person who performed it, saying that the ending was Michael Weber's exact handling, and that Michael had showed it to me years ago, when I was 17 years old (that's 9 years ago now.)

I was inquiring as to whether the DVD that Mr. Green was selling was of a new handling that he developed, or if it was Michael Weber's. I sure hope that the it isn't the one that I saw that person do, because that was Weber's exact handling, and it would be a shame if a guy like Weber got ripped off.

Anyone know anything about this?


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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/09/08 11:53 AM

I think I replied to your earlier thread.

Weber sent out a note to Paul Green, which he copied to me (and I assume others) where he definitely states that the item is his, that he showed it to Paul Green, and that Paul did not have permission to release it.
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Postby Alpen » 06/09/08 01:20 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Richard.


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Postby Jim Sisti » 06/09/08 03:53 PM

I'm curious as to why someone has only three posts to their credit and they're all about this one topic...
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 06/09/08 03:53 PM

Richard, I received the same email. It would be nice to hear from Paul on this.

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Postby Tom Gilbert » 06/09/08 05:12 PM

If Paul has been performing this for years and teaching at lectures for years... why is it an issue all of a sudden?
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Postby Ian Kendall » 06/09/08 06:28 PM

Because Weber is now aware of it?

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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/09/08 06:29 PM

I was very close to sending him funds for the item - as he'd mentioned it a few times over the last five years ... and now just feeling conflicted here.
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Postby Alpen » 06/10/08 11:56 AM

Jim Sisti wrote:I'm curious as to why someone has only three posts to their credit and they're all about this one topic...


I appreciate your concern Mr. Sisti. I was registered in the old Genii Forum, and since the recent changovers, have been too busy to re-register and actively post. I have never thought that a high post number added to anyone's credibility. I only post when I have something to say/add to a topic.
I have nothing to do with this project, nor do I have anything against Mr. Green. Mike Weber is a friend, and furthermore, I love magic and everything about it, and my goal was to aid in the accuracy of the printed (or in this case visual) record of magic.

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Postby Lemniscate » 06/10/08 06:04 PM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:I was very close to sending him funds for the item - as he'd mentioned it a few times over the last five years ... and now just feeling conflicted here.


I'm going to wait to see how this is resolved and that is what I would recommend. Always put yourself in somebody else's shoes. I mean, if somebody releases somebody else's effect, should you really buy it? Isn't that exposure? And, worse, exposure with monetary gain??? Seems like an easy no, esp. with the type of stance many in the art take against exposure.
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Postby Brandon Hall » 06/10/08 06:47 PM

I'm guessing we'll be hearing from Paul shortly now...
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Postby MagicBilly » 06/10/08 07:19 PM

Lemniscate wrote: I'm going to wait to see how this is resolved and that is what I would recommend. Always put yourself in somebody else's shoes. I mean, if somebody releases somebody else's effect, should you really buy it? Isn't that exposure? And, worse, exposure with monetary gain??? Seems like an easy no, esp. with the type of stance many in the art take against exposure.


Great recommendation - wait until it's been resolved, yet you quickly rush in to speculation of exposure and profiteering. What, huh!!!

Does anyone commenting here have the facts to this story. I know I don't. What happened to innocent until proven guilty. I appreciate the sensitivity of this issue, but it sure smells like a lynch mob to me.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/10/08 07:44 PM

When I heard the provenance of part of the item was in dispute I set back and decided to await some sort of outcome from the principles in this matter.

Lemniscate wrote:... I mean, if somebody releases somebody else's effect, should you really buy it? Isn't that exposure? And, worse, exposure with monetary gain???


That touches on what's causing me internal conflict. What's bugging me is how to feel about:
What if I had bought it and learned it?
What if I feel like asking about it seeing as it's already been exposed?
What of those who've learned it already and are out there doing the thing well (or not so well)?
What of those who are out there selling or teaching the item?
What to do in order not to get swept up in the echoes of something similar which happened to someone close?

I don't have any ready or easy answers on this yet - just some parts that want to have or do or think or feel or believe different things. I'm giving them a "time out" in the name of decency toward Mr. Green and Mr. Weber and our group's integrity. Obviously none of those parts mentioned above are happy about this "time out" but for now I'll distract them with other matters.
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on 06/10/08 07:46 PM, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: clarity - cause clarissa can't explain this all yet.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/10/08 09:12 PM

Rather than assume the worst, or that something mysterious is happening, it's reasonable to assume that the parties are trying to work something out behind the scenes.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/10/08 09:38 PM

Who's assuming anything?

The principles will say what they want when they want.
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Postby BlueEyed Videot » 06/11/08 12:43 AM

Wasn't it Max Maven in one of his columns who quipped (or quoted):

Q: How many magicians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Just one, but soon they're all doing it.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/11/08 08:12 AM

Some of us don't want our lightbulbs screwed.

Leave it to Max to leave a gem of a setup line like that out there. Thanks Max.
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Postby Ross Welford » 06/11/08 11:04 AM

This is strange. A couple of days ago - or did I imagine it? - there was a heartfelt mea culpa by Paul Green over at the magic cafe, in which he said it wasn't his intention to rip off anyone, that he thought he was ok to release the dvd, and he was mortified that he'd upset anyone, or words to that effect.

ANd then it had gone, mid-thread. Removed, one assumes, either by Paul Green himself or by the Cafe Stasi, whoops, staff. Most odd.
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Postby Jim Maloney » 06/11/08 11:09 AM

The folks at the Cafe seem to have removed any mention of this debate.

I think Richard and Dustin would agree with me that if Paul were to post a response over here, there would be little reason for us to remove anything. In fact, I hope he does post, as I would like to read his response to this.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/11/08 11:36 AM

We won't be removing anything posted here on this subject.
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Postby Glenn Godsey » 06/11/08 11:47 AM

I would say that if Michael Weber has documentary evidence that it is his, let him bring it forward. Otherwise, we only have hearsay from him and a few of Weber's friends based on memory.

This is a damaging accusation to Paul Green with zero hard evidence. Memories are notoriously unreliable and certainly they are not evidence. Paul has an established reputation for meticulous honesty and documentation.

I wouldn't want to be part of propagating this conviction based on rumor without documentation.

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Postby Bob Farmer » 06/11/08 11:57 AM

Oka, I'll admit it, I'm one of Mike Weber's friends and I did see him do this several hundred years ago. As to those who didn't, I can only say this: Mike has had a demonstrated and documented reputation as a creative magical thinker for many, many years. He has no need to claim someone else's tricks as his -- he has enough of his own. What possible motive would he have to claim this trick other than the pursuit of truth -- it's his idea.

Tricks of memory work affect everyone: Paul Green may genuinely believe this is his trick. He may have simply forgotten where he saw it.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 06/11/08 11:58 AM

On his DVD, Paul mentions a conversation with Michael Weber and lists Weber in the credits section, so some influence is acknowledged by Paul. As I understand it, what is in dispute is the degree of that influence and, correspondingly, whether permission to publish should have been requested and secured from Weber by Green.
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Postby Jim Maloney » 06/11/08 12:00 PM

Glenn Godsey wrote:I would say that if Michael Weber has documentary evidence that it is his, let him bring it forward. Otherwise, we only have hearsay from him and a few of Weber's friends based on memory.


This is not an accusation based simply on memory. Michael Weber sent an e-mail directly to Paul Green, copying a number of other folks (including Richard), stating his objection to the release.

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Postby Ian Kendall » 06/11/08 01:16 PM

I had a chat with Roy about this today. He was blissfully unaware of the furore, but we had a nice discussion about things. Apparantly Paul and I share some methods in our routines (I've not seen the DVD).

On the Cafe thread Paul did say that Michael Weber showed him the display in question, and I'm not sure that's in dispute.

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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 06/11/08 01:23 PM

To my understanding it is the finale in question, not Paul's routine. It seems that both Dean Dill and I also came up with the same ending, but at different times.

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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 06/11/08 01:28 PM

I'm arriving late to this incidental dust-up; however, it seems to me that the crux of the matter is simple and has not been the primary focus of this thread. The main issue is behavioral and ethical. Shouldn't one FIRST ASK PERMISSION BEFORE PUBLISHING OR RELEASING SOMETHING?

A corollary issue relates to whether or not someone puts something out WITHOUT RECEIVING PERMISSION.

Meanwhile rest assured the idea is Michael Weber's.
The DVD, alas, is a fait accompli.
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Postby Ian Kendall » 06/11/08 01:51 PM

Jeff; I understand that, I just mentioned it in passing. As I posted elsewhere, I toyed with the display sometime after 1986 (when I got Card Warp for the first time) but I can't remember if it's something I came up with or was shown.

BTW, Roy was asking after your book - is it back on track?

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/11/08 02:47 PM

It is not in question that Weber showed Paul Green his ending for Card Warp many years ago (20, at least). It is just the ending for the routine, the routine itself is Roy's.

Other people may have come up with this in the interim, but Weber was performing this when he was a Castle Junior, so it's a long time ago. Paul Green believes that the ending he has put on the DVD is not what Michael showed him, but a variation or improvement of it.
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Postby Roger M. » 06/11/08 03:28 PM

A key word might be "believes".

This isn't a case of folks ripping one another off a la Magic Makers......it's a case of honest and respected magicians remembering things that happened 20 years ago differently.

Not that difficult to imagine, and I'm not sure that any malice need be ascribed to anybody involved in this entire discussion.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/11/08 04:47 PM

Well, not from Weber's point of view. He's pretty steamed.
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Postby Paul Green » 06/11/08 08:08 PM

Hello everyone,

This was my response to Michael Weber's original message to me:

"What can I say? I am devastated by your message. I hope you know that I respect you as a performer and innovator. I would never do something like this to sadden or disappoint you. Further, I would never try to benefit from something like this without consulting you if I had felt that what I had come up with was not sufficiently different from what you showed me.

My memory of what took place over 20 years ago, when you showed me your work on Card Warp, is different from what you recall. I truly believe that what is on the DVD is my own take on what was a concept that you showed me. It is totally different than the final show you shared with me. As I worked with what I remember you showing me, it developed over the years into what I showed to Roy Walton and to various audiences.

Over the years, I have shown my routine to many of our mutual friends and none of them ever stated that what I was doing was something of yours. Of course, this does not prove anything as you may have not shown them your work. I have always tried to credit people with their inspiration. Simon Aaronson and Ali Bongo were contacted before the release of Jeopardy. Bruce Cervon and James Lewis were contacted over the Prof.'s Nightmare handling. I have a tremendous respect and admiration for those that develop the new plots and methods that are added to my repertoire. Further, I know how important it is to try and keep some kind of historical lineage for the art of Magic. I do my best to be a decent person within the community of magicians.

If someone asks to show me something and then asks me to keep it secret, I respectfully decline. I do not want any new routines that I develop to then be considered someone else's child if they are released to marketplace. I am sure that I have missed out on seeing some real treasures

Again, my recollection of what you shared with me is different. I, too, am saddened and disappointed. This was never my intention. Please consider what I have said in this message. I look forward to resolving this issue. Perhaps a meeting, face-to-face, will help to clear the air. Please let me know what you would like to do."

Further comments included:

"I have always tried to credit people with their inspiration. Simon Aaronson and Ali Bongo were contacted before the release of "Jeopardy". Bruce Cervon and James Lewis were contacted over the Prof.'s Nightmare handling. I have a tremendous respect and admiration for those that develop the new plots and methods that are added to my repertoire."

I contacted Aaronson, Bongo, Cervon, and Lewis because what I was using in my routines was a direct duplication of their material. My recollection of what Michael Weber showed my is substantially different. He did start me on my path, but I felt there were significant differences in my work.

As you can read above, I have offered to speak directly with Michael Weber to see if we can work something out. Michael has not contacted me.

I have chosen not to "air" this diffference publically. My release was never done with any malicious intention. I am sorry to be in this position. My reputation is tarnished and I am losing friends over this. I am saddened by this.

Respectfully,

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Postby Tom Gilbert » 06/11/08 09:47 PM

Paul, it's amazing you would be losing friends over this. After all in the whole scheme of this it's a *&(*^ card trick..

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Postby Jim Sisti » 06/11/08 10:37 PM

Blair M. wrote:A key word might be "believes".

This isn't a case of folks ripping one another off a la Magic Makers......it's a case of honest and respected magicians remembering things that happened 20 years ago differently.


Blair has hit the nail on the head here. Cronyism aside for the moment, based on the reputations of the two gentlemen at the center of this, I can't believe anyone could seriously think it could be otherwise.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 06/11/08 10:54 PM

Just watched Juno - kind of. Can you say quirky?

Still not gonna state the obvious - just waiting to hear if Mr. Weber wishes to state his perspective in public.
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Postby Roger M. » 06/12/08 12:20 PM

Richard Kaufman wrote:Well, not from Weber's point of view. He's pretty steamed.

These two guys both have personal track records that don't support this being an intentional attempt to "steal" an effect.

I guess too that being steamed doesn't make Ken right any more than remembering something that happened 20 years ago differently makes Paul right.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/12/08 01:41 PM

You mean Michael, not Ken.
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Postby Brandon Hall » 06/12/08 02:42 PM

I think Paul made his position pretty clear and what's done is done. Unless we hear something completely different from Mr. Weber, it's safe to say no harm (or sleight), was intended.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/12/08 02:47 PM

Why is that the case? Perhaps Paul's memory has failed him and what he has put on the market is exactly what Michael showed him? That's Michael's point of view. What Michael has not done is publically brought someone forward (aside from Alpin's unsolicited post) to back up his claim. But Alpin has already done that.
The DVD should be removed from the market if the Card Warp ending is indeed Michael's.
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Postby Michael Close » 06/12/08 05:19 PM

I was one of the people who received an email from Michael Weber about Paul Greens DVD. I posted information about this on The Magic Caf, and my posts were pulled. If Weber needs people to back up his claim, add me to the list, which already includes Racherbaumer and Farmer.

I watched Pauls DVD. The ending is Michael Webers. Weber first showed me this more than 25 years ago, and I watched him perform it on several other occasions over the years. If you have seen the DVD, and you have seen the ending, you have to ask yourself: how many ways are there to get into this position? Not many. Consequently, it is difficult for me to understand what Paul thinks he has added to this.

But here is the more important point, and it has nothing to do with memory or claims of variation. Paul Green got the idea for the final reveal from Weber. No matter where he went with that idea (and in my opinion he moved horizontally, if at all), he should have checked with Weber to get permission to publish. In fact, Paul should have asked for permission years ago, when he first started teaching this in his lectures. (Weber was unaware that Paul had been doing this.) I think it is wrong to publish a variation of an unpublished idea without asking permission. It happens all the time, but that doesnt make it right.

Everyone seems to spin this as a simple mistake on Pauls part. Perhaps it was, but why didnt he show Weber the same courtesy that he showed Roy Walton, Simon Aronson, Ali Bongo, Bruce Cervon and others? He remembered to get permission from them. But he forgot to ask Weber?

Theres a real mystery.

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