who is wesley james

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/17/08 11:27 PM

Lovell does a fabulous Card to Mouth: it's one of his signature pieces.
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Postby George Olson » 05/17/08 11:37 PM

Nourdin:

Be patient, read and study the book at least once a week for the first year or so, then you will know precisely where to turn for clarification on something you're trying to learn.

By the way "...the only 20yr old poor student here..."

Listening to the folks on this sight will do nothing but help you in your growth in this crazy art.

Where is the "downtown" you want to perform??

GO
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Postby Dave Egleston » 05/18/08 12:06 AM

__________________________________________________________________________________
Jim Maloney

Stated:


Simon Lovell is now an "English sidekick"?

Yeesh.

-Jim
__________________________________________________________________________________

THAT'S Simon Lovell?!?!?

Nothing I've ever heard about him meshed with what I saw on this video.

You can "Yeesh" all you want.

It's stuff like this and the way he carried himself in the video that will always drag the art of magic toward the standard Magic Makers has set for themselves.

Just because he was working the gutter side of magic, is no excuse to give less than 100% in his efforts to teach that which most card men revere.

Dave
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Postby Dave Egleston » 05/18/08 12:20 AM

Nourdin wrote:Dave...
Thank you. This is why I didnt spend 80 dollars.
I saw that sidekick talking in a video and he gave me a very dissapointing feeling.
But yet he said that James was the best person in world for Erdnase nd in all the descriptions on website where you can buy James's they made it clear in a way it was exactly like the book.


But if this is no good, then I wonder how to 'check' the erdnase. Does anyone know any site or so where I can double check my things?
I sometimes really read 5 of 6 times before I get one part of a explanation.


Actually, if you can "get" one part of some of the explanations after reading it only 5-6 times...... That ain't bad, part of the fun of learning from books is the rereading of certain passages and maybe finding a different way to interpret what was written. I think that there are a couple of items in the Erdnase book where the author had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek as he wrote.

I think the Munari/Ackerman offering, when it is finally finished, will be something to make most card men happy.

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Postby Nourdin » 05/18/08 08:49 AM

I live in Amsterdamn, the Netherlands.

sometimes after 5-6 times I still don't get it, no matter how hard I try to understnad. the bottom dealing I am already 3 days, but I'm still doubting that I'm holding it right.

the pictures also don't look good compared to the explanation.
and every film I saw werent like this grip. all with the first finger way over the end and the second finger's joint not IN the coner.

I think I'm doing it all wrong and have no place to check how it should be.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 05/18/08 10:43 AM

In my humble opinion - nobody here has given Nourdin real down-to-earth, proper, advise. Which, again IMHO, is DO NOT "DO" ERDNASE AS A BEGINNER. In my opinion, that is not a book, or video, for someone who knows nothing of card magic. How about getting books wherein you can understand the explanations THE FIRST TIME YOU READ THEM?! BOOKS, that is, not videos, not at first. My opinion, folks. HARRY LORAYNE.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/18/08 10:57 AM

I agree with Harry. The text in Erdnase is extremely dense and the book is under-illustrated. Not a beginner's book unless you're someone like Dai Vernon.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 05/18/08 11:54 AM

It is very hard to give an opinion about what a student of magic should read without knowing who they are - what their skill level is - or what their goals in magic are.

There are some magicians interested in learning good performance material to use when performing magic for people.

And there are magicians that collect moves like some magicians collect books and magic tricks.

If you are the kind of a magician that wants to learn good performance material in card magic. I will suggest Harry Lorayne's close up card magic book. I started with this book and I still use many of the magic tricks that are in that book. It also has a section where it explains the moves and techniques that are used in that book.

All of the Lorayne books are great - and the Al Leech books are great too. They have a lot of good performance material in them.

Erdnase is a book that magicians read mostly if they are interested in learning to do card shark magic - or moves and technique that is used by a card sharp.

Most of the older school magicians that I met in the 60's and 70's that read Erdnase did so for inspiration more than to learn the moves - I found the Erdnase bottom deal interesting and it is the move that you are trying to learn - and it contains one of the technical errors in the book.

As far as the bottom deal - My Dad did the Erdnase bottom deal better than anyone I ever saw do it. The "GRIP" is the most important thing to get at the start before the student can learn the deal and do it smoothly - in the Erdnase bottom deal and his second deal. The grip is a very hard grip to learn if the student has small hands.

Just my opinion.

Good luck.
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Postby David Alexander » 05/18/08 12:29 PM

I agree with Glenn. Harry's "Close-Up Card Magic" is filled with practical, commercial material. I bought my copy when it first came out, just as I was graduating high school. Ten bucks was a lot of money to me back then, but I bought it and treasure it as it, along with lessons from Jay Ose, formed the nucleus of my professional close-up card work. Thank you, Harry.

It is also interesting to note that Vernon observed about one of the sleights in Erdnase (Revelations) that it was better suited to someone with small hands.

All hands are different: larger, smaller, fingers of different lengths, thicknesses, etc. Each student of card magic must take the general idea of what is being described and make the small adjustments necessary to adapt their own physiology to the sleight.
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Postby RogueMD » 05/18/08 01:18 PM

The OP did not ASK for advice on what books to start with or how to study anything but by implication, Erdnase; his agenda is his own.
He asked a straightforward question about a DVD set and whether he should buy it over another.
With respect to him and his intelligence, that is the question that should be answered in this thread.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/18/08 01:18 PM

Gene Maze also used the Erdnase Grip for his Bottom Deal. It was great: you never saw the fingers on the hand holding the deck move.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 05/18/08 01:43 PM

Michael: That question WAS, and is, answered in this thread - over and over again. But, I'll repeat, he wasn't given GOOD advice. He is new to magic, he doesn't know, so he should be advised that Erdnase is NOT for him now. THAT is the proper advice, and the proper, the legitimate, answer to his question. That is, if you really want to help him. HL
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Postby Dave Egleston » 05/18/08 01:56 PM

Nourdin wrote:Wesley James made a 7 dvd thing for expert at the card table

I think about buying it but can't find a review about it or about any other movie.

I hope someone can give me information. And should I be checking out allan ackerman instead?

greets, Nor


This was the question.

Another thread hijacked.

He did not ask for advice on which Harry Lorayne book should he start learning card magic.

Mr Nordin has stated he can understand Erdnase after rereading it several times. That's better than most of our Erdnase experts, Mr. James being a perfect example, why doubt his intelligence ?

I actually admire this guy and I think that he might be better served with the Ackerman interpretation of Erdnase or the new Caveny Erdnase book coming out next month complete with photographic illustrations of the specific questions he's asking about.

Dave
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Reason: Took out an unwarranted mean-spirited comment.
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Postby Nourdin » 05/18/08 02:17 PM

I like to thank everyone for thinking up a good post.
Just so weird that it has escalated to a whole new thing.

I never was into magic, but when I saw a movie it was sooooooo inspiring I started to learn the mechanics grip which im quite good in I believe.

Now I'm going Erdnase. Yes I am a beginner, but its not like I feel that it is too far fetched to start with this one. I find it really a nice book, just wish I could be sure I understood what it says.

When something in it is difficult, after 2 days it just works fine. But I'm then still not sure that I am doing it right.

That's why I want to know where I can double check it. Not really interested in dvd's or something, its just that that is the only thing I can think up off. if there is a more detailed and explanation on a move in erdnase in a site ( so they just help readers ) I would love that too. ( note the LOVE )


--



Glenn Bisshop
Is this really true? I don't mind about having small hands, I will master it anyway ( even if it takes me 10 years ) ... but the technical error. Can you be more specific?


All I am really asking is just where to get help for the book. Without help its ok, but chance of wasting time or doing it wrong just bugs me.
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 05/18/08 02:27 PM

He didn't ask for it because he's not experienced enough to ask for it. It'd be like someone saying to me, "I know absolutely nothing about card magic, but I'd like to learn. I've just been told about some of your stuff. Please help me - which should I learn first, your Ultra Move, Paul Curry's Turnover Change, which you teach in one of your books, or your HaLo Cut?" My answer would be - "NONE of the above. First, learn the basics of card magic - learn a control, a force perhaps, a double lift, a palm. You can do miracles with just those. After you're familiar with those, you can think of more advanced stuff."

That'd be my answer, or something similar. But, according to you, that'd be wrong because he asked specifically which to learn - The Ultra Move, the Turnover Change, the HaLo Cut. And, I have to repeat - answering by telling him to learn one of those, under these circumstances, would be as wrong as telling him which Erdnase DVD he should buy. HL
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Postby Nourdin » 05/18/08 02:32 PM

But Harry I only want to see if I am doing it right. That's why I ask for the dvd's.

You guys are thinking this way too much over. ( still thanks though( lol hope i wont become mr friendly or something ))
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 05/18/08 03:06 PM

Okay; so let's assume you learn that you're doing a difficult Erdnase move/sleight "right." Then, what are you going to do with it? hl
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Postby Nourdin » 05/18/08 03:27 PM

try to make it as much as deceptive and natural possible so I will eventually become an expert at the card table.
Become 'god' when beeing a dealer.

why asking this ?
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Postby Harry Lorayne » 05/18/08 03:35 PM

Oh, so you want to be an "expert at the card table." That's different; I thought you wanted to do card magic. So, you're right - get one of the Erdnase DVDs; that'll do it for you, I suppose. hl (Just curious - how will doing an Erdnase "move" right help you become "God when being a dealer")
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Postby Nourdin » 05/18/08 03:44 PM

hahahaha
I was thinking about leaving the god part out in case some people really believe in some specific god :p

If I can do all the Erdnase moves. If I am really natural with it and can practically control everything with the cards when dealing and nobody knowing or suspecting a thing, Is that then not a bit like 'god' :p


harry, you say get a erdnase dvd.
this is what makes me come back to my first post...
which one. dave said a new book is coming up and that the ackerman interpretation is good.
where can I get the Ackerman?

Also, Glenn said that there were errors with the bottom deal.

There is little specific information online. this is very good so it is kept secret. But basically I want in and I'm poor...

My best advice for myself and which I read multiple times is to just go through the book several times for a longer period of time.

And beeing able to ask questions here just makes it all very nice :)
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/18/08 03:47 PM

Some cardmen swear by Erdnase, many others have gone their entire lives without reading it. Others have read it, but never used a single technique or trick from it.

Some people find that certain books "speak to them." This sounds like one of those instances.

Tony Spina had no business selling me Cliff Green's Professional Card Magic when I was a kid. No one was doing any of the material and it was extremely difficult. If the book hadn't "spoken to me," it would have gone on the shelf and that would have been the end of it. It was the same thing with Vernon and Expert at the Card Table. And Charlie Miller, too--it was quite amazing when I saw him lecture at Herb Zarrow's house and he did so much of the material from Erdnase. What he used it for, if he did, I have no idea.

Whatever the case, you have to follow the path on which your muse directs you.

Good luck!
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Postby Dave Egleston » 05/18/08 04:04 PM

Mr. Nourdin, you should try and contact several of the Erdnase scholars that frequent this board.

For starters;

Jason England
Richard Hatch
David Ben

Plus there are several folks well versed in the mechanics of deceptive dealing including those described in Erdnase.

Dave
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 05/18/08 09:28 PM

To answer your question - if I remember right the Erdnase bottom deal is done by buckling the bottom card with the third finger and not the second finger. I think in the book it says something like the thumb and second finger do the work - and it is the thumb and third finger because the second finger helps hold the deck in the Erdnase grip.

That also brings me to this opinion - that the Erdnase bottom deal is not a very good bottom deal for cheating. Because the grip is a tell.

The only people I have ever known that used the Erdnase grip are magicians - not card sharks.

Some magicians like the grip and others don't. I used to use the grip and the deal for quite some time. Paul LePaul used the grip and he did the bottom deal with the grip doing a strike bottom. I have met a few magicians that use it with a strike bottom because the push out or push off bottom is a hard deal with the Erdnase grip - because the grip is hard to get used to and the deal - it takes strength in the third finger.

But like I said - the grip is a tell.

Erdnase was written in about 1902 and it was a great book for it's day. But time changes the protocol and procedures of many of the games and the way many of them are played today.

Plus I don't think that any of the cheating methods that are in Erdnase would be very practical in a real game of cards. But that is just my opinion. I think that learning how to play the games "well" would be more practical and that is just my opinion too.

Who is Wesley James - he is a magician - not a card cheat. Over the years I have met a lot of magicians that have strong opinions on what will work or wont work at the card table when it comes to cheating at cards.

There is some good stuff in the book - some practical moves for magicians like the palming section and the false cuts and some great theory. But for magic - Tarbell is better - The Lorayne books are better - Greater Magic is better.

Just my opinion.
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Postby David Alexander » 05/18/08 11:27 PM

Nourdin,

There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.
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Postby Cugel » 05/19/08 04:53 AM

David Alexander wrote:
There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.



I beg to differ.

p.60:
"The most ordinary mode of stocking consists in arranging the cards as discreetly as possible while taking tricks... [through to] ...will appear as mere trifling."


p.110:
"After a blind shuffle, with the desired cards on the bottom, the dealer palms in the left and passes the deck with the right to be cut. After the cut he picks up the deck with the right hand and replaces the palmed cards, when squaring up for the deal."


p.110:
"When there are but two or three players in a game where the cards are dealt one at a time , a top stock of four or six cards may be run up and palmed in the right hand as the deck is replaced when picking up the deck, and usually by a sliding motion. This palming and replacing of the top stock is easier and perhaps less noticeable..."


p.111:
The dealer holds the location of the cut until the hands are dealt. Then the desired cards can be dealt from the bottom during the next deal. This moment, after the first deal, is the most favorable, as the players are occupied with their hands, the cut has been made quite regularly, the deal finished and consequently there is less cause for close scrutiny. But principally... [continues at length]..."


See also Dealing Too Many, Crimping for the Cut, extensive advice in Replacing Palm When Cutting, The Short Deck and elsewhere.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 05/19/08 07:38 AM

Nourdin wrote:Wesley James made a 7 dvd thing for expert at the card table

I think about buying it but can't find a review about it or about any other movie.

I hope someone can give me information. And should I be checking out allan ackerman instead?


There are lengthy discussions and reviews of Wesley's DVD set online. Perhaps GOOGLE might be of some assistance there.
HERE is a simple search setup.

The Ackerman set is not available at this time. Not even sure if a release date has been announced.
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Postby David Alexander » 05/19/08 08:35 AM

Sorry, Cugel, but not the sort of "application" I was thinking about.
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Postby Cugel » 05/19/08 09:32 AM

Which application were you thinking about?
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Postby David Alexander » 05/19/08 09:33 AM

And for Nourdin-

Mastery of Erdnase does not guarantee that you will be an entertaining magician..which is the whole point of performing magic.

If you want to collect sleights as a hobby, fine, but mastery of any sleight, from Erdnase or any other source, will not automatically make you entertaining.
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Postby Nourdin » 05/19/08 12:02 PM

To be honest I didnt really like the grip because its so weird looking which will give attention. But like the book said, use it for normal deal too. If in same company always use it. The mechanics grip is even more noticable since it comes on media more often to give a tell on cheaters.
But I agree, erdnase grip issnt the best solution, but for deception I think it is. That's why I will still focus on it.
(the grip is starting to feel very nice now)

and yes, erndase is very good for application. Its why I love the book even though I've only read half


and I don't care about becoming an entertaining magician now. I just want to master the cards for now. I will learn specific tricks in future ( such as the card in backpocket that antonio esfandiari performs )

Thanks all.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 05/19/08 03:38 PM

David Alexander wrote:Sorry, Cugel, but not the sort of "application" I was thinking about.


Right on David I agree with everything that you have posted. And if I may add for learning "entertaining" card magic in my opinion there are a lot more books that teach entertaining card magician that are better than Erdnase.

(I know that David and many magicians reading this know this)

Yet learning magic in my opinion - learning the technique or the tricks of entertaining card magic - does not guarantee the student will become a good entertainer when doing the card routines.

That takes a whole different kind of an education. And that is learned and only learned by doing shows and getting "experience" doing shows and "working".

Richard Kaufman wrote:And Charlie Miller, too--it was quite amazing when I saw him lecture at Herb Zarrow's house and he did so much of the material from Erdnase. What he used it for, if he did, I have no idea.


What a great observation - thanks very much for posting this Richard. I have seen this a lot with a lot of magicians of the old school that I have met in magic.

Being able to do it and then using it in a performance situation are two different things. And an education in two different "schools" in magic.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Cugel » 05/19/08 05:47 PM

Glenn Bishop wrote:
David Alexander wrote:Sorry, Cugel, but not the sort of "application" I was thinking about.


Right on David I agree with everything that you have posted. And if I may add for learning "entertaining" card magic in my opinion there are a lot more books that teach entertaining card magician that are better than Erdnase.


Actually I agree that there are easier books from which to learn card magic, and I always enjoy reading David Alexander's comments on theatrical magic - though I would suggest Erdnase has some stimulating and at least amusing comments about performance.

But that wasn't what I was talking about. What I was talking about was David Alexander's post above where he advises:

David Alexander wrote:
There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.



The fact is, if you are referring to application of Erdnase's techniques to Euchre, other trick based games and 'pass the deck' poker, Erdnase gives ample explanation of how the moves are applied within the game. For example:

The dealer holds the location of the cut until the hands are dealt. Then the desired cards can be dealt from the bottom during the next deal. This moment, after the first deal, is the most favorable, as the players are occupied with their hands, the cut has been made quite regularly, the deal finished and consequently there is less cause for close scrutiny. But principally... [continues at length]..."


I don't know what other applications David Alexander was referring to, but I would be interested to read his explanation without getting distracted on a tangential issue related to Erdnase's Legerdemain section. If the application he was referring to was commercial magic then perhaps he should have written "how to apply them to strolling magic" rather than "how to apply them to getting the money in a game."
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Postby Nourdin » 05/19/08 06:18 PM

you guyssssssssssssssssssssssssss
I just want more information about how to make my bottom deal more deceptive because its obvious to see from top ( the top doesnt move is what my friends tell me )

So all I want to know is which bottom deal is best. I understand nobody wants to say exactly how. It wouldnt be magic! but at least tell me which direction I should think off. Mechanic? Erdnase?
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Postby rage » 05/19/08 07:02 PM

I am no expert bottom dealer by any means. However, there is no bottom deal that is "best."

You have to do the research and find as many methods as you can. Once you do this you will be able to answer your question yourself. You will find a method that is "best" for you.
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Postby Cugel » 05/20/08 05:12 AM

Still keen to read David Alexander's clarification on what sort of application he was referring to.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 05/20/08 07:46 AM

David Alexander wrote:Nourdin,

There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.



Again another great observation David - learning the moves and then learning how to "use" the moves so that they will work at "crunch time" is a different school of magic.

I have met a lot of magicians over my lifetime and many of them know and can do a lot of card moves - but the moves were not road tested.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Cugel » 05/20/08 08:12 AM

Silly Walter, your post is not helpful. I am actually interested in David Alexander's thinking on this issue.

Glenn Bishop's last post is also unhelpful and indicates he is deliberately being contrarian and obtuse or that he simply doesn't actually understand the point of this discussion as it relates to the Alexander comment.

Just my opinion, Bishop.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 05/20/08 08:45 AM

Cugel wrote:Glenn Bishop's last post is also unhelpful and indicates he is deliberately being contrarian and obtuse or that he simply doesn't actually understand the point of this discussion as it relates to the Alexander comment.

Just my opinion, Bishop.


It may be unhelpful to some but in my opinion I think I do understand David's comment.

It has to do with the issues of learning magic and not performing magic in my opinion. Erdnase may talk of application in "theory" and when he does that is one of the great illusions of the book.

In my opinion in the way Erdnase writes it seems like "to me" that is that he "used" what he writes about. And that is one of the great illusions of the book. And why I call it an illusion is that often that "illusion" is shattered when the student takes the material and then they "use" it themselves and find out just how "practical" the techniques and ideas are when "they themselves" apply that knowledge in a real world situation.

That real world situation would be doing a show - or for the card cheat - cheating at the card table.

I agree with David if he is saying that the book of Erdnase doesn't teach application - it has application theory in my opinion but the only way to apply the application of the techniques and ideas in Erdnase - or any other magic book would be for the student to use them and find out "what works" for them.

That is why I found Richard's post about Charlie Miller very interesting.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 05/20/08 10:30 AM

Nourdin wrote:you guyssssssssssssssssssssssssss
I just want more information about how to make my bottom deal more deceptive ...all I want to know is which bottom deal is best. I understand nobody wants to say exactly how. It wouldnt be magic! but at least tell me which direction I should think off. Mechanic? Erdnase?


Hi Nourdin, what specifically would you like to learn? And along that line what drew you to the erdnase text?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time
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Postby Nourdin » 05/20/08 10:46 AM

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Hi Nourdin, what specifically would you like to learn? And along that line what drew you to the erdnase text?



Hi Jonathon.
I'm training every day 4 hours or more sleight of hands.
I'm on my way to advance to palming.

My biggest problem now is bottom dealing. I'm not sure which grip I should try to master.

In my head there ie the mechanic. But this one doesnt feel deceptive I believe. Either I'm doing something wrong or this grip just issn't the best there is
And for the erdnase grip, well... the book just doesnt help me out enough ( I believe )


After I could do the mechanic the best I could, I asked people what they noticed. After about 10 hands they would say they don't see the top card taken out. so the deception issn't good.
Perhaps I could use some information about that?

And for the Erdnase I'm totally at the beginning. I don't know what I want to know about that :/
Erdnase !
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Nourdin
 
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Joined: 05/17/08 02:57 PM

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