Questions about Bosco

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Postby Stepanov » 05/13/08 03:38 AM

I am very much apologize. I have some of strange question about great family of Bosco.

1. If Eugene Bosco was not legitimate son of Bartolomeo Bosco and Harry Houdini find document where father payed 5000 franks to son not to use stage name Bosco, what was civil (real) name of Eugene Bosco?
2. What difference between Bartholomew and Bartolomeo? May be some is Italian but second French? May be one is adult name but another gently?
3. How close pronounce of Carlo Bosco and Carlo Broschi? May be Bartolomeo Bosco use "Carlo Bosco" (on 1839 he was under this name in Russia) because famous Farinelli? I did not find any connections between names Bartolomeo and Carlo.
4. What means "Eugene Bosco shut off his hand"? He lose half of hand or he made hole in hand and it stop work? How he did it? It was by accident or fight on duel?
5. Who now known like best specialist on Bartolomeo Bosco?
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Postby Richard Hatch » 05/13/08 11:16 AM

Hi Oleg. Don't know anything about the first question. Pretty sure "Bartholomew" is just an English version of Bartolomeo, which I assume is the correct Italian version. Don't know anything about the 3 or 4th questions. Volker Huber, Ricky Jay, Bill Kalush, and Giovanni Pasqua (Roxy, an antiquarian magic book dealer in Torino, where Bosco was apparently born) would be my best guesses on the 5th.
I'll send you the Erdnase information by PM later today...
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Postby Stepanov » 05/13/08 11:59 AM

Hi Richard.

Just today I check my Skype conection with Roxy. He is great man. And his collection terrific. Unfortunately he did not know month ago that Carlo Bosco and Bartolomeo Bosco is same person and I help him translate from Die Zauberwelt 1896.

With Bill Kalush I had connections but he not unswered on last messages. I do not know is Internet not pass some of messages or I wrote somethink wrong. :-)

Still try connect with Mr. Ricky Jay. First step I will get "REDBELT". :-)

I ask about Bartholomew because first time on my life read it on
http://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php ... omeo_Bosco and suppose somebody can explain here. Really I think it is just English variant. But who knows?
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Postby Bill Palmer » 05/25/08 10:21 PM

Hello Oleg:

Bartholomew is definitely an Anglicization of Bartolomeo. It is actually incorrect to call him Giovanni Bartholomew Bosco. It would be more consitent to call him John Bartholomew Bosco, because Giovanni translates into John in English.


I'm not certain that Carl Willmann's article in Die Zauberwelt is really accurate. He hedges quite a bit when he makes his assertions about Carlo and Bartolomeo.
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Postby Carlo Morpurgo » 05/25/08 11:54 PM

Stepanov wrote:
5. Who now known like best specialist on Bartolomeo Bosco?


From the little I know I think that Silvan could be the person you are looking for....

Carlo
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Postby Bill Palmer » 05/26/08 03:03 AM

3. How close pronounce of Carlo Bosco and Carlo Broschi? May be Bartolomeo Bosco use "Carlo Bosco" (on 1839 he was under this name in Russia) because famous Farinelli? I did not find any connections between names Bartolomeo and Carlo.


Bosco and Broschi are not prononounced similarly enough to be confused with one another. Where did "Carlo Bosco" perform in Russia in 1839? Is there any evidence that this person is the same as Bartolomeo, other than the Willmann article?



4. What means "Eugene Bosco shut off his hand"? He lose half of hand or he made hole in hand and it stop work? How he did it? It was by accident or fight on duel?


That should read "shot," not "shut." There are errors in the magicpedia listing about Eugene Bosco. One obvious one is the word "farther" instead of "father."
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Postby Matthew Field » 05/26/08 06:14 AM

I presume you have read the information on the several Boscos in "Servais LeRoy" by Mike Caveney and William Rauscher.

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Postby Stepanov » 05/26/08 04:24 PM

Matthew Field wrote:I presume you have read the information on the several Boscos in "Servais LeRoy" by Mike Caveney and William Rauscher.

Matt Field

Unfortunatelly - not. Thanks for information.
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Postby Stepanov » 05/26/08 05:16 PM

Bill Palmer wrote:Where did "Carlo Bosco" perform in Russia in 1839?
I do not know. I take information from Russian books. Vadimov, "From magicians of ancient time to illusionists of our days", 1966:
"German Illusionist, who adopted famous name Bosco, was in Russia one year before the real Bartolomeo Bosco. This Karl Bosco was liked by Russian audience - he perform here during nine years, and at parting published in Moscow book with full description of his repertoir."

Bill Palmer wrote:Is there any evidence that this person is the same as Bartolomeo, other than the Willmann article?

Really I begin suppose it before Willmann article. I compare German book "Carlo Bosco's Zauber-Kabinet." Quedlinburg und Leipzig, 1838 and Italian book "Gabinetto Magico." Milano: Silvestri, 1853. Books identical like translation. On second books portrait of Bartolomeo Bosco. I understand it was written by Heinrich August Kerndrffer and compiled from Guyot 1770, but it give ideas for search.

I understand that "Lexicon" not source but just supposition of peoples who wrote it but there is article "Bosco, Bartholomeo (Carlo)..." If you interesting I can send it to you (On German).

Please. Apologize. Am I understand correct that somebody do not respect information from "Willmann article" or you just interesting new sources? I have wonderfull piece of information about Bartolomeo Bosco from Russian magazine on 1841.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 05/26/08 08:58 PM

Stepanov wrote:
Matthew Field wrote:I presume you have read the information on the several Boscos in "Servais LeRoy" by Mike Caveney and William Rauscher.

Matt Field

Unfortunatelly - not. Thanks for information.


Oleg, I am pretty sure that the Boscos discussed in the Servais LeRoy book are not what you seek. It discusses the various magicians who performed the part of "Bosco" with the LeRoy, Talma and Bosco troupe (Imro Fox, Dr. Elliott, etc). No bearing on your research regarding Bartolomeo, other than possible inspiration in the choice of name.
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Postby Stepanov » 05/27/08 01:13 AM

Richard Hatch wrote:Oleg, I am pretty sure that the Boscos discussed in the Servais LeRoy book are not what you seek. It discusses the various magicians who performed the part of "Bosco" with the LeRoy, Talma and Bosco troupe (Imro Fox, Dr. Elliott, etc). No bearing on your research regarding Bartolomeo, other than possible inspiration in the choice of name.

Dear Richard. Of course I know Dr. Elliott, Champion of the World on Card Manipulation, who became Bosco on trio LeRoy, Talma and Bosco, ill by diabet and dead from pulmanology. I know about his bottom deal and book "Last legasy..." I just try to be polite. I ask question. Man want help me. I am really thanks to him.
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Postby Joe Pecore » 06/06/08 11:48 AM

I just happen to come across this today http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/2-20-2004-50776.asp which mentions Bosco and his son's accident with his hand.
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 06/06/08 01:30 PM

Stepanov wrote:
Bill Palmer wrote:Where did "Carlo Bosco" perform in Russia in 1839?
I do not know. I take information from Russian books. Vadimov, "From magicians of ancient time to illusionists of our days", 1966:
"German Illusionist, who adopted famous name Bosco, was in Russia one year before the real Bartolomeo Bosco. This Karl Bosco was liked by Russian audience - he perform here during nine years, and at parting published in Moscow book with full description of his repertoir."

Bill Palmer wrote:Is there any evidence that this person is the same as Bartolomeo, other than the Willmann article?

Really I begin suppose it before Willmann article. I compare German book "Carlo Bosco's Zauber-Kabinet." Quedlinburg und Leipzig, 1838 and Italian book "Gabinetto Magico." Milano: Silvestri, 1853. Books identical like translation. On second books portrait of Bartolomeo Bosco. I understand it was written by Heinrich August Kerndrffer and compiled from Guyot 1770, but it give ideas for search.

I understand that "Lexicon" not source but just supposition of peoples who wrote it but there is article "Bosco, Bartholomeo (Carlo)..." If you interesting I can send it to you (On German).

Please. Apologize. Am I understand correct that somebody do not respect information from "Willmann article" or you just interesting new sources? I have wonderfull piece of information about Bartolomeo Bosco from Russian magazine on 1841.


Oleg:

I apologize for not getting back to you about this sooner. Please, send me the German article you are referring to. I would be happy to read it.

I have some contacts in Dresden with people who have a lot of information about Bartolomeo Bosco. Perhaps they can tell me what the relationship between Carlo (Karl?) Bosco and Bartolomeo might be.

It's not that I don't respect Willmann as a source, it's just that he doesn't have much supporting evidence. It should have been very easy to find supporting evidence when he wrote his article. But Willmann was writing for a broad group of magicians, not necessarily historians.

I should also mention that there were a number of books that were published with names that were similar to Bosco's simply to confuse the buyers. This was a common practice during the 19th century. For example, we have books credited to Frikell that he had nothing at all do do with.

I appreciate your diligence and effort in researching this.
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Postby mai-ling » 06/10/08 05:11 PM

off shoot from the original question.

there was a female magician name
who went under the name Mrs. Bosco
in the late 1880's...

I don't know if there is any relation,
highly un-likely...still thought it
was interesting.
you will remember my name
http://www.mai-ling.net
world's youngest illusionista

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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/11/08 04:26 PM

Kurt Volkmann wrote a history of magic "Gechichte der Zauberkunst" as a long running series in the German magic magazine MAGIE of the Magischer Zirkel von Deutschland (Magic Circle of Germany).
In MAGIE Vol. 33, No.6 , June 1, 1953, pp. 122 - 126 Dr. Volkmann dealt in the chapter 6 with the subject Bartholomeo Bosco under the heading "Gestalter und Gestalten" (Creators and Figures)with 33 references.

Elsewhere in his series (in the chapter about wounded persons by bullet catching) Dr. Volkmann wrote that it cannot be right that Eugen Bosco, lost his hand in 1857 in Weimar in performing the bullet catching, as he performed still in 1862 in Bordeaux.
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Postby Stepanov » 06/13/08 03:56 AM

Dear Mr. Joe Pecore. Unfortunately, suggested URL not give more information than possible find on another sources. Thanks for your help.

Dear Willard. I send you private answer with article.

Dear Mr. Reinhard Mueller. Thanks for information. Volkmann is great. I used his articles about Pass when wrote my article. He is so deep, that I still did not get one very much important source what he mentioned...
Unfortunayely, on article what you mention there are more than one time used Zauberwelt 1896 but not any word about Carlo Bosco. Looks like he was agree with Willmann.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/13/08 08:16 AM

Dear Mr. Stepanov,
In Dr. Aloys Christof Wilsmann "Die zersgte Jungfrau" (Berlin 1938)I read on page 231 a comment about Carl not Carlo; I quote and translate:
"Carl Bosco: Kartenknste, Berlin 1866, 18. verm. Auflage (If Carl Bosco was a relative of Bartolomeo Bosco ,is not truly known. Maybe he was only a conjuror, who takes Bosco's name only for advertising."
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Postby Stepanov » 06/13/08 10:22 AM

Thanks. Unfortunatelly this is again just a book. And text very much close to books of Kerndrffer who wrote "Carlo Bosco's Magic Cabinet". As I know first book was on 1825 and titel was "Carl der Tausendknstler". Publisher was Carl Cnobloch. May be Kerndrffer use his name like pay for help with publishing?

I still do not hawe any information about Carl(o) Bosco exept from texts where peoples look on title and suggest "If it was such book - it was such man".
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/13/08 11:59 AM

I just looked through two further German books about magic history as Graf Klinkowstroem DIE ZAUBERKUNST (Mnchen 1954), Gnther Dammann ZAUBERKUNST und ZAUBERKNSTLER (Wien 1937). The common view is:
1. Carl(o) Bosco is a "Mystifikation", there are about 20 of this "Mystifikationen", that means B.Bosco's name is used as an enticement in the title of the books.
2. The name BOSCO is like BELLACHINI a synonym for conjuror in the German language.

---and, dear Mr. Stepanov, if you like to find real persons with the name CARLO BOSCO please use the following link:

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/Global ... &zfn=Carlo
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Postby Stepanov » 06/13/08 06:20 PM

Interesting. But...
1. There are no proof that Carl(o) Bosco exist, in spite of the fact that it was a lot of mistificators.
2. I do not sure when Bosco became synonym - before Bartolomeo or after and because.

I look suggested link. Unfortunately I know all that books.

Still the best is Valkmann what now I seriously watch. Thanks a lot.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/14/08 12:22 PM

Dear Mr. Stepanov,
to 1. haven't you seen that list under the link, which I had given? There are real peoples with the name CARLO BOSCO! -->

Ellis Island Passenger Arrival Records (1892 - 1924)
Results 1 - 12 of 12 for Carlo Bosco

Given Name Surname Approximate
Year of Birth Date of Arrival Age on Arrival Residence
Carlo Bosco 1884 6 March 1922 38 Bangor, Pa.
Carlo Bosco 1878 2 August 1913 35 Richmond, U.S.A.
Carlo Bosco 1889 19 November 1912 23 Sarno, Italy
Carlo Bosco 1902 29 February 1908 6 Lucera, Foygia
Carlo Bosco 1866 31 March 1908 42 Benevento
Carlo Michele Bosco 1885 2 April 1902 17 Lipari
Carlo Bosco 1867 29 May 1893 26 Buccini
Carlo Lo Bosco 1893 9 May 1924 31 Chicago, Ill
Carlo Giovanni Bosco 1895 30 June 1924 29
Carlo Bosco 1859 30 April 1892 33
Carlo Bosco 1867 8 October 1900 33 S. Georgio Montagna
Carlo Bosco 1883 16 March 1904 21 Bari

AND the
Social Security Death Index
Results 1 - 3 of 3 for Carlo Bosco

Given Name Surname Birth Year Death Year County State More Details
Carlo Bosco 1912 1985 Martin Florida More Details
Carlo Bosco 1890 1972 New Haven Connecticut More Details
Carlo Bosco 1901 1979 Ocean New Jersey More Details

to 2. Naturally BOSCO became a synonym for conjoror in German language during Bosco's life and after his dead.
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Postby Stepanov » 06/14/08 12:37 PM

Dear Mr. Reinhard Mueller.

1. Of course I believe that can be Carlo Bosco. I meant there are no proof that was Carlo Bosco who born on 1800's, was magician and can be prototype of man who visit Russia and used for title of book.

2. I understand that name Bosco can became synonym of magician after popularity of Bartolomeo, but hardly believe that this word was so famous on 1838 when was printed book.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/15/08 12:01 PM

Hofzinser wrote on Nov. 13, 1828 (!) that he had the highest respect for B. Bosco's ability.[see Magic Christian J.N. Hofzinser Non Plus Ultra (1998) p.35].

In 1846 and 1848 Hofzinser wrote three rhapsodic eulogies about B. Bosco [see Magic Christian J.N. Hofzinser Non Plus Ultra (1998) pp. 210 - 212, and p.214] !
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Postby Stepanov » 06/15/08 06:36 PM

I will try find book by Herr Christian Selter. Or pages from it...

On my book I use words of Hofzinser from Theaterzeitung 22 November 1848.

If Bosco was friendly with Hofzinser, and Hofzinser was friendly with Compars Hermann, I can understand why Robert-Houdin so strange wrote about Bosco. :-)
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Postby Bill Palmer » 06/15/08 10:27 PM

Hello Oleg:

Actually, the name is Christian Stelzel.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/16/08 03:46 AM

... and please note that the two books, Vol.1 and 2, NON PLUS ULTRA book is offered only under Christian Stelzel's stage name: MAGIC CHRISTIAN.
The second volume is about Hofzinser's card magic. The first volume tells about Hofzinser's life, shows his critics and his letters, etc.
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Postby LAngelique » 06/16/08 04:18 AM

It's interesting to read about all the "Carlo Bosco's" who emigrated to America. My fiance has two "Carlo Bosco" in his family, himself and his grandfather who was Italian. I think his grandfather was born in the late 1890's close to Milano.
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Postby Stepanov » 06/16/08 06:09 AM

Bill Palmer wrote:Hello Oleg:
Actually, the name is Christian Stelzel.

Ops. Of cource... Thanks.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/16/08 01:16 PM

I discovered a thorough investigation about B.Bosco in the book: Stephan Oettermann, Sybylle Spiegel "Bio-Bibliographisches Lexikon der Zauberknstler" Edition Volker Huber, Offenbach am Main 2004.

I think that the headword is notable: "Bosco, Bartholomeo (Carlo)"!

Regarding Eugne Bosco, who was born in Hamburg, Germany May, 06, 1830: he was not born out of wedlock, he was christened 1830 in Hamburg.

And there is another book, which deals with the problem "Name of Bosco or Bosko in the title of a book" in an essay by Volker Huber. The book is: L. Schellenberg jun.(editor):"Ein Blick in Dbler's und Bosko's Zauberkabinet" Wiesbaden 1832; Reprint Edition Volker Huber, Offenbach am Main 2001. [That book was really written by Dbler!]

By the way the Magic Christian's NON PLUS ULTRA volumes were also published by Volker Huber Edition.
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Postby Stepanov » 06/16/08 11:20 PM

Reinhard Mueller wrote:I discovered a thorough investigation about B.Bosco in the book: Stephan Oettermann, Sybylle Spiegel "Bio-Bibliographisches Lexikon der Zauberknstler" Edition Volker Huber, Offenbach am Main 2004.
I call it Lexicon on message #166699 on this thread.

Reinhard Mueller wrote:Regarding Eugne Bosco, who was born in Hamburg, Germany May, 06, 1830: he was not born out of wedlock, he was christened 1830 in Hamburg.

Apologize. I am not so close with religion. Do you mean that if somebody was christened it means he has two official parents? Is it was first family of Bartolomeo or he was maried only one time?

Reinhard Mueller wrote:By the way the Magic Christian's NON PLUS ULTRA volumes were also published by Volker Huber Edition.

Looks like for me will be difficult get pages from this book.
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/17/08 04:11 AM

As I see you have access to The Oettermann Lexikon, please read on page 57 the item Bosco, Eugne
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Postby Stepanov » 06/17/08 05:00 PM

Hm. On my variant Bosco, Eugne on page 49... Looks like information about both Boscos taken from Volkmann...

Please, can I send you two pages and you compare is it same text what you mean or not?
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/18/08 06:27 AM

Mr. Stepanov:
This is the text from the Oettermann p.57, note that there is given the name of his parents!

Bosco, Eugene = Bosco junior, ital. Zauberknstler (*06.05.1830 Hamburg) - E:(=ELTERN!) Bartholomeo Bosco & Antoinette Rosir. ber seine Herkunft bestand bisher Unsicherheit. Doch weder ist er 1823 in Italien geboren, noch war er unehelich geboren und 1830 in Hamburg getauft. Ab 1850 reiste als Zauberknstler und Konkurrent seines Vaters in Europa.
N+H: KEY1 1 WHA1 <---these are the sources of information:
KEY 1 is: Keyser, Marja:"Komt dat zien!" De Amsterdamse Kermis in de negentiende eeuw. Amsterdam, Rotterdam 1976.
and WHA 1 is Whaley's WHO'S WHO, 1990.
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Postby Stepanov » 06/18/08 12:50 PM

Dear mr. Reinhard Mueller. Thanks for information. On my source only:

Bosco, Eugne = Bosco junior, ital. Zauberknstler (*1823 [1829?] Italien). E: Bartholomeo Bosco (unehelich). Bereiste ab 1850 als Zauberknstler Europa.
N+H: KEY1 | WHA1

Looks like we have different books. And, on my opinion, we both use electronic sources... :-)

BTW. Thanks for explanations of some of features. My sorce without it...
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/19/08 05:02 AM

Really, those books are different!

All the best,
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Postby Reinhard Mueller » 06/20/08 04:36 PM

I just note that in Gibeciere #5 (Vol. 3, No. 1) among others is to find the following(I quote from the advertisement):

"...Also includes the first English translation of Satana raccolta Europea: passatempo dell'intermezzo nelle sedute: di magia egiziana: del cavaliere Bartolomeo Bosco, a rare and early biography of the renowned sleight-of-hand performer Bartolomeo Bosco...."
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