The Professor

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Postby Max Maven » 04/19/08 06:44 PM

I am baffled by the revisionism regarding Dai Vernon that seems to crop up about once a year.

The Professor was a genius, whose influence on magic was and is pervasive, arguably beyond that of any other person during the 20th century. But yes, he was also a fallible human being, and had plenty of negative baggage.

In case you haven't noticed, that is the nature of most people.

Some of the comments that have piled on in this thread have been questionable. For example: "Absent the Magic Castle, it is highly likely that in his later years he would have gone down the road Francis Carlyle traveled."

Perhaps, but the fact is that Francis Carlyle also became part of the Castle community during his later years, so the premise of that statement doesn't hold up to the actual history.

Or: "[W]ithout his published works ... Magicians may not have remembered him."

Yep. And without the published works of the majority of authors, they wouldn't be remembered. What is the point of that statement?

Or: "Absent the Magic Castle ... the professor would have been doomed to perform stand up in his silly oriental garb for a few more years."

Now this is nonsensical. Vernon did an act in Chinese attire for a very short time (and, by all accounts, it was quite good). But, although he could have worked doing stand-up as a full-time career, he chose not to. In his early days he made top dollar doing small scale performances at private parties for the very rich. For brief periods he explored doing stand-up character acts (in addition to the Chinese act, there was of course the harlequin act that garnered raves). Much later, he did stand-up on cruise ships. All of these were successful. But, he did not have the personal drive to be a full-time performer. Indeed, during his most active years he made most of his income by cutting silhouettes -- which he did with superb skill.

But what do those choices have to do with anything in this discussion? In any given field, there will be a small number of people who innovate to the point that they change the course of that field. Dai Vernon was to magic what Marcel Duchamp was to painting. Does that excuse his shortcomings? No. But it renders them a side issue in the exploration of his life's work.
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Postby Joe Naud » 04/19/08 06:55 PM

Amen.

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Postby Paul Q » 04/19/08 07:02 PM

MAX,
have you considered writing an autobiography so that we can get first hand life stories instead of other opinions about you when you've gone.

(Just don't leave before June 27th, I plan on seeing your show then.)

What does this have to do with Vernon?

Everything...
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/19/08 07:06 PM

I have always wondered what the allure was, to audiences in the early to mid 20th century, of seeing a fake Oriental magician. Vernon's act was done in a mask, Mike Bornstein did an act ... . The phenomena was an odd one.

Vernon's was different though, because of the mask. One of the exercises you do in an acting conservatory is work with masks. Wearing a mask onstage is liberating in a way that is difficult to explain beyond the obvious "it allows you to hide while performing" thing because it covers your face. It also has the ability to completely transform the person under the mask. It would have been interesting to see Vernon do it (or Sam Horowitz, for that matter, who subbed for Vernon once in a while).
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Postby NCMarsh » 04/19/08 07:56 PM

"Absent the Magic Castle, it is highly likely that in his later years he would have gone down the road Francis Carlyle traveled."

Perhaps, but the fact is that Francis Carlyle also became part of the Castle community during his later years, so the premise of that statement doesn't hold up to the actual history.


Asked in honest innocence and ignorance: was Francis Carlyle offered financial sustenance by the Castle? My sense was that the teeth of Mr. Alexander's comment was that the Castle essentially took care of Vernon's material needs. If a similar arrangement -- perpetual shelter and housing in exchange for one's presence -- wasn't available to Carlyle, then the fact that he was a part of the scene has nothing to do with how Vernon would have fared without his unique arrangement.

That Vernon was treated in this way is further evidence of his extraordinary influence and genius.

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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/19/08 08:49 PM

Max Maven wrote:Or: "[W]ithout his published works ... Magicians may not have remembered him."

Yep. And without the published works of the majority of authors, they wouldn't be remembered. What is the point of that statement?

I will be glad to answer that question with my opinion. Vernon is remembered by the "magic community" in my opinion "mostly" for his published works.

He is not remembered by the lay audience.

Few magicians are remembered by the lay audience the exception of the time might be Houdini.

In my opinion magicians that publish are remembered more by magicians than the magician performers of that day that did not publish. Also in my opinion Vernon is remembered by magicians because a lot of what he published was great.

Many magicians that do the cups and balls today were influenced and inspired by the Dai Vernon Cups and balls routine. And many magicians started learning the cups and balls - with Dai Vernon's routine.

Now, having said that as time moves on - we get older there will be less and less people that got to see Dai Vernon do his routine live in a performance of a show.

Yes there is some taped footage - but that is not the same as seeing the man do it live in a show.

I knew Don Alan quite well and I remember being in a conversation with another magician a few years after Don passed away. The magician I was talking to said something like - "There are a lot of magicians doing the Don Alan chop cup routine and never got to see Don Alan do it."

Yet it is my opinion that there are many magicians that do the Don Alan chop cup today that never even heard of Don Alan.

That was "very" true of my dads rope tie effect. There are many magicians that do my dads trick today - that never heard of Billy Bishop - that is until they meet me!

By the way Billy Bishop did not publish. He was a "performer" and did comedy magic in the "top" night clubs of his day. He also performed on television. He did not publish and if I wasn't in magic and in "the business" he would have been forgotten.

Magicians that publish have a better chance of being remembered by magicians.

Just my opinion!
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Postby 000 » 04/20/08 03:11 AM

To refer to the above discussions as revisionism is a stretch...and a very long thin one at that, as any revisionist historian will tell you.
There are indeed many of us who rely on published works to form our impressions. Thirty five years ago, I managed to procure a copy of Vernons Symphony of the Spheres, a splendid 6 ring routine. Now, when the Vernon chronicles ( his life and not his actual routines) are being written up, as readers all we ask for is that the complete picture of the man is painted. And sorry if that hurts.
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Postby Glenn Bishop » 04/20/08 09:04 AM

000 wrote:There are indeed many of us who rely on published works to form our impressions.
Yes - that is what I was trying to say.

Vernon did his Harlequin act in the "Rainbow Room" 1939. That was a high class night club venue. I don't think that there are many magicians around today that got to see that performance.

Most of us read the story that is published about it.

I have memory of Vernon doing the cups and balls and the linking rings at his lecture. I never saw him perform these classic tricks in a show - and in my opinion a memory of that would be a lot different than my memory of him doing the rings and the cups and balls at his lecture.

In my opinion some magicians are remembered for their performance and some for their - or because of their published works.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Jim Martin » 04/20/08 10:52 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:...One of the exercises you do in an acting conservatory is work with masks. Wearing a mask onstage is liberating in a way that is difficult to explain beyond the obvious "it allows you to hide while performing" thing because it covers your face. It also has the ability to completely transform the person under the mask.


The person under the mask is more free in their performance.

I'm not sure of the audience's fascination in seeing a fake Oriental magician, but I'm reminded that one of Sir Laurence Olivier's later roles involved wearing an exact replica of his own nose. He said the audience never even knew of its existence, yet he felt completely different and it enabled him to become the character.


...........kinda like when I use a thumb tip ;)
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/21/08 09:32 AM

Some might argue that what makes a person who they are is what gives meaning to their work.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/21/08 10:41 AM

I think a person's spouse and children might argue that point.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/21/08 11:23 AM

Richard Kaufman wrote:I think a person's spouse and children might argue that point.


Exactly, especially in the arts. This notion was touched upon in the Leipzig quote about being fooled by a gentleman.

A couple of questions that almost made my interview list were "What item does your family most request you to perform at family gatherings?" and "What items do you most enjoy sharing with your family?"

On the lighter side one might also wonder if something like: "if you can't fool yourself how can you expect to fool others?" has a place in our knowlegebase?

How's this for a signature: Read my text, no new data.
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Postby 000 » 04/21/08 04:58 PM

The man was a sadist. Abracadabra, and see, the icon is melting away.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/21/08 05:04 PM

000 wrote:The man was a sadist. Abracadabra, and see, the icon is melting away.


I have not heard or read a report from anyone who knew him that he derived pleasure in and from the pain of others.
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Postby Cugel » 04/21/08 05:17 PM

He certainly enjoyed playing his acolytes and worshipers off against one another. Look at his unreasonable treatment of Ammar on those old tapes. There are lots of apocryphal stories about how he stuck pins in people who looked after him or sought his favour.
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Postby Glenn Godsey » 04/21/08 08:55 PM

Max Maven wrote:I am baffled by the revisionism regarding Dai Vernon that seems to crop up about once a year.

The Professor was a genius, whose influence on magic was and is pervasive, arguably beyond that of any other person during the 20th century....


I am with you, Max. I am amazed at the hear-say stories propagated by people who were never even in the same room with Vernon, and some who never even studied his work.

It seems to me that this is a sort of anti-intellectual resentment of genius...

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/21/08 09:11 PM

Glenn, it is possible to agree with Max and also agree with the personal issues others have written about Vernon--they are not mutually exclusive. There is no "anti-intellectual resentment here." Vernon was a genius in our field and rotten to his wife and kids. End of story.
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Postby Michael Kamen » 04/21/08 11:32 PM

Anybody seen the Nova presentation on the life of Einstein? They make a womanizing ne'er do well out of him. What was he really? In the context of what he did contribute to humanity (for better or worse), does it matter?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 04/22/08 12:06 AM

It mattered to his family and friends.
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Postby Michael Kamen » 04/22/08 12:14 AM

Well ok then.
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Postby 000 » 04/22/08 03:07 AM

I often wondered why Vernon was derogotary towards Michael Ammar, defenitely one of the greatest teachers, mentors and entertainers of our time. Was it because he felt threatened in his freebie in situ residency at the Castle? Fair enough, but enough is enough.

As I was the one who placed the original posting, I respectfully submit that this subject now be closed. The original posting was in response to a Genii article and Vernons supposed striving for excellence, warped as it may have been. My plea to those recording our annals of history is to present a balanced picture. Otherwise history has a funny way of doing it for you.

Now lets get back to the magic shall we? Did I show you this trick with.......................
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Postby Max Maven » 04/22/08 04:16 AM

000 wrote:The man was a sadist. Abracadabra, and see, the icon is melting away.


And that is precisely the revisionism to which I was referring.

Whoever you are, "000", you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Postby JimChristianson » 04/22/08 04:36 AM

Michael Kamen wrote:Anybody seen the Nova presentation on the life of Einstein? They make a womanizing ne'er do well out of him.


Off-topic, but still interesting: In Shelley Winter's autobiography, she tells of her days as a struggling young actress, and her friendship with another struggling young actress, Marilyn Monroe. As young people often do, they fantasized about whom they'd like to have sex with. Einstien was on Marilyn's list.

Years later, Shelley visited Marilyn, and on MM's piano was a framed picture of Albert on which he had written something along the lines of "Thanks for making an old man happy."

E=MacDaddy2!!!
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Postby 000 » 04/22/08 05:46 AM

Nope mate, these are the words uttered by the Chief Genii. ( in his thread) Know who he is? Also a revisionist perhaps?
Get over it and get on with it.
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Postby 000 » 04/22/08 06:29 AM

And one more thing Max....

Ive read that youve lived in walking distance of the Castle half your life....no doubt as a frequent visitor Vernon recognized your ( vast!...and I mean that sincerely) innovative talent and you were then one of his approved people..... Back in the threads, you can see that I did say sorry that it hurts, but you dont want to let it lie. Obviously didnt know how much it hurts.
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Postby Cugel » 04/22/08 07:23 AM

Max: don't feed the trolls.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/22/08 08:10 AM

000- to be kindly about this and I hope not too blunt, the issue of Vernon as icon is not so much about his work as about those who seek icons.

There are those who cannot celebrate the works of another without recourse to infatuation. The person was. The works are recorded. The person is remembered by their peers, students and (sadly we are plagued with cultists) those who look to a person for more iconic reasons.

We have a social practice of devaluating the self in favor of creating fictions which can then be used for economic and political purposes. Addressing this issue by way of iconoclasm is about as useful as attempting to cure a smoker's cancer by explaining to them that smoking can lead to cancer.

Perhaps its enough to recognize that those who don't wish to see are hiding their eyes for what they feel are good reasons and until you know their reasons it's not so useful to tell them about what they work so hard to not see.

How about finding what you like in the guy's works and seeing how you can incorporate that into your own work. :)
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Postby 000 » 04/22/08 08:44 AM

Wise words Jonothan
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Postby 000 » 04/24/08 02:14 AM

Just to reply further to you Jonathan. What has always struck me ( personally) from his teachings is the importance of routining. Take his 6 ring routine for example....every single move is nuanced, has a reason, to naturally take you to the next step in the routine. Perhaps others would like to share what positive influences Vernon has had on them and how they have incorporated that into their own work ?
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Postby El Mystico » 04/24/08 10:43 AM

OOO, you say you started this thread as a plea for the historians to present a balanced picture.But the book that details his biography is the Ben book, and that holds no punches on Vernon the man.
As for his performance, it is such a pity that most of the filmed material we have of him is of a fairly old man. When you go back to the earliest of these - and I'm thinking of the slow motion card vanish and such like, you really get a sense that the guy was probably a very good performer.
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Postby 000 » 04/24/08 12:09 PM

The thread was in response to the April Genii article. As for the book by Ben it was superb, Vol 2 most eagerly awaited
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Postby Brandon Hall » 04/24/08 04:05 PM

Michael, They didn't make a "...womanizing ne'er do well out of him". he did that. They simply revealed a different side of the MAN. People are complicated.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 04/24/08 04:53 PM

Max Maven wrote:Whoever you are, "000", you have no idea what you're talking about.


Another reason to regret Black Thursday .
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Postby Robert Allen » 04/25/08 01:05 AM

Tearing down ones idols seems to be part and parcel with magicians. Houdini did it to Robert Houdin, Randi did it to Geller (which I always thought strange given that Randi seemed to do his best to relieve Houdini's life.) Now people are doing it to Vernon. I have not followed the whole debacle closely since I don't care for National Enquirer-levels of scholarship or writing, but I sincerely believe it's some inherent trait of loathed humanity that we make ourselves feel better about ourselves by tearing down our former heroes.

I met Vernon once, for about 5 minutes. I was probably about 16. In those few moments I was invigorated to continue studying magic and he made me feel very welcome even though I was intruding on his lunch at the Castle. Maybe he wasn't the greatest role model in the world in some ways (or, maybe he was, since I personally have no firsthand knowledge to gainsay his ways). But that doesn't mean he wasn't good at what he did. Or that he wasn't a lot better at it than most of us around here.

We can have our accurate history with adding to it our personal efforts to tear down the historical figures.
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Postby 000 » 04/25/08 01:51 AM

Randi had every right to expose Geller for the skilled magician that he is.....along with the fake psychic healers and dealers.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 04/25/08 07:34 AM

I believe Robert hit the nail and the nerve with those two words "loathed humanity".

Robert Allen wrote:Tearing down ones idols seems to be part and parcel with magicians. ...I sincerely believe it's some inherent trait of loathed humanity that we make ourselves feel better about ourselves by tearing down our former heroes...


Such is IMHO exactly the opposite of magic - and even if done in private as part of ones early education in the practice such behavior serves neither the magician nor the craft.

At some point it serves to simply accept that ones elders are human, that the revered ones of times long past were human and it is that very humanity which makes them worthy of the respect for all they've accomplished. Their actions had consequences and knowing more about their choices and actions can lead to a greater understanding of them in their context from which one may learn and so perhaps make informed choices and take effective action in ones own context.

This "tear down idols" thing is a double edged sword working against us. First, to forget that the statues we make have feet of clay loses the connection to that which we aspire. Second, to destroy that which serves us and others diminishes us and others.

If you really believe you are what you eat just say moo and watch out for the mint jelly.
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Postby El Mystico » 04/25/08 07:40 AM

ooo - where was Vernon derogatory towards Ammar? - I'm aware of his criticism of Ammar's Triumph handling on Revelations - but there he also praises his Shadow Coins. Was he critical elsewhere too?
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Postby 000 » 04/29/08 12:58 AM

El Mystico..apologies for the delay. I remember Vernon being critical of Ammars early instructional videos as a teaching/learning tool , not referring to specifics.
On an unrelated note I am sad to have learnt of the death of a colleague, Prof Kevin Rochford of Cape Town,South Africa, 63 years old, a native Australian who had been married for 3 weeks, member of The Cape Magicians Society and supporter of the College of Magic....senselessy murdered outside his home one week ago..... Mandelas magic has sadly dissipated. RIP.
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Postby El Mystico » 04/29/08 03:51 AM

That's awful! I was in Cape Town last autumn, such a beautiful place, it seemed far safer than Johannesburg.
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Postby 000 » 06/24/08 02:17 AM

Thanks El Mystico
Im a bit surprised by the lack of condolences for a slain colleague. His murderers are still at large and no arrests have been made.

Regarding the Professor I have a question
According to Karl Johnson, in his book The Magician and the Cardsharp Vernon enjoyed hookers, or what he liked to call 'ladies of negotiable affections' and that these were probably arranged by magicians from the Castle. Question
Which magician/s were these?
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