Scoundrels Forum

Addresses new and interesting links to other sites (not listed on the Genii website) that merit attention.

Postby Guest » 12/22/05 09:43 AM

Just wanted to invite anyone who has an interest in three-card monte, shell game and other short cons, cheating at cards, and all the soft rackets, or in the history of medicine shows, vaudeville, chattauqua, dime museums, carnival, circus, and wild west shows--to check out the new Scoundrels Forum.

The site includes live chat, Scoundrels Magazine, a wiki site, trading post, and photo gallery.

This is the new online home of the School for Scoundrels, and everyone is welcome.

Scoundrels Forum can be reached at:

www.ScoundrelsForum.com
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 11:47 AM

While you have to search 'em out (hint: cheaters, circus, and carnval areas) there are some absolutely facinating threads on Whits forum.
Steve V
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 02:24 PM

What a lovely site....chock full o' slander and outright lies regarding Ringling Bros.

How do you live with yourself?

M.E.
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 03:14 PM

Seriously, Whit. I've always know you to be a fairly spiritual man. How can you preside over a site that accuses Irvin Feld of hring clowns for...well...the purposes your site accuses him of?

It's irresponsible, crass, and utterly beneath contempt.

Shame on you, Whit.

M.E.
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 03:46 PM

Well...I have no dog in that fight but why don't you post your opposition to whatever you object to and discuss it with the fellow making the statement? Debating clowns would be interesting.
Steve V
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Postby John LeBlanc » 12/22/05 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Steve V':
Debating clowns would be interesting.
I could be mistaken, but debating clowns seem to be the primary reason for threads getting locked around here.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Steve V':
Well...I have no dog in that fight but why don't you post your opposition to whatever you object to and discuss it with the fellow making the statement? Debating clowns would be interesting.
Steve V
Pies at 10 paces.

M.E.
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 04:59 PM

Originally posted by John LeBlanc:
Originally posted by Steve V':
[b]Debating clowns would be interesting.
I could be mistaken, but debating clowns seem to be the primary reason for threads getting locked around here.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/ [/b]
>>>

Point of parliamentary procedure...*HONK*! If the chair will...*SPRITZZZZ*...entertain a motion.

Seriosly, though, clowns give me the creeps.

M.E.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 12/22/05 05:17 PM

Originally posted by MagicalElder:
Seriosly, though, clowns give me the creeps.
Amen.

Patches the Clown, Ringling Bros. / Barnum & Bailey Circus, New Orleans, 1972 -- congratulations, I blame you.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 05:19 PM

From Whit about HIS forum.." personal attacks and name-calling are pointless as well as boring and juvenile and will not be tolerated."

Word and deed are very, very different over there. the reason I posted this here is that Whit posted here, thus inviting comment. this is a "forum" after all.

M.E.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/22/05 05:55 PM

Magical Elder, you are beginning to try my patience. Why don't you either get to the point, have the balls to post under your own name, or take a hike.
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 08:50 PM

Go screw yourself, Richard.

The point is, Irvin Feld was a kind and decent man. By producing S&R and taking them to the very top of the magic profession, he indirectly made an important contribution to magic in the USA.

He deserves better than having his name viociously slandered and dragged through the mud by one of Whit's forum leaders.

But hey, you have no problem with slandering dead people, do you? I've seen how you treat Marlo around here. the only one without balls that I can see is the one who only takes on the deceased.


M.E.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/22/05 09:18 PM

I tried to screw myself once. It hurt and left a scar. I don't recommend it.

M.E., is there a reason you cannot take up this beef you have with a subject on Whit's forum on Whit's forum?

I believe Whit invited people to go to his forum, not snipe him here.

Dustin
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Postby Guest » 12/22/05 09:23 PM

Other than clowns there is a thread by a retired crooked dealer that is facinating as well.
Steve V
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Postby Bill Mullins » 12/22/05 10:34 PM

Originally posted by MagicalElder:
Go screw yourself, Richard.
Wow. A guy comes online, under an alias, in a forum hosted by and paid for by someone else, and tells the owner to do an obscene act.

One of the least classy and rudest things I've ever seen around here.
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Postby magicam » 12/22/05 11:26 PM

I've had my beefs with Richard in the past, in part on the very issue of how power is exercised on this forum. But like it or not, Richard does have the powers he claims he has on this forum, and Ive accepted that as part of the price of participating here. That said, I hope Richard doesnt can ME for his comments, thereby proving that Richard can take it as well as dish it out. Expanding on one of Bills points, although I guess its okay to post anonymously, Ive always felt that if one insists on hiding behind an alias, he/she must be afraid of something or must not have much strength of conviction in what he/she is saying. I certainly respect someone more if theyre willing to stand up and be counted. Posts by folks who insist on hiding somehow seem to have less gravitas to them. Clay
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/22/05 11:38 PM

I would like to point out that Clay's "handle" was a result of his real name being banished for life. It's never been a secret who "magicam" is.

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Postby Guest » 12/23/05 02:42 AM

Let me say this...

Being an *expert* myself,(excuse my modesty) in being able to get ANY thread closed by a few well placed comments, having the well trained ability to get banned from ANY board at my own will :D , I also fully accept a board/forumowners rigth to censure, close and bann a member.

Saying this, however, I also expect that this *right* is administrated with a sense of intelligence, fairness and humility for members weaknesses and ongoing arguments !

BUT, let me say it plain and clear.

The first line in *MagicalElder*s answer to RK's remark is way out of line and in a language I wouldn't dream of to use myself, if I want to drive a point forward.

So I too would advice *MagicalElder* to think twice when posting *any* attack on anybody, and *attacks* sometimes are needed and my respect to anybody using his REAL name to put forward his honest and true opinion..re the specific case in question, I have no opinion, I don't know about any of it, but I dislike the language used by *MagicalElder* !
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Postby Guest » 12/23/05 02:46 AM

Originally posted by DustinStinett:
I would like to point out that Clay's "handle" was a result of his real name being banished for life. It's never been a secret who "magicam" is.

Dustin
If a board is set up with proper software/program, it doesn't matter when a banned member does reregister using another name.

His IP-adress can be logged (any members should) and then the IP-adress blocked for further entrance.

This is a powerfull weapon, and only a few knowing how to bypass a such system can nevertheless continue on a board using the above mentioned IP-adress bann ;)
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Postby Ian Kendall » 12/23/05 03:03 AM

I think there's a simple protocol problem here.

Did you see what I did there?

Woo-hoo, I'm on _fire_ today...


Alternatively, we could all calm down and ignore anyone who posts under a false name. Works for me.

Take care, Ian
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Postby Guest » 12/23/05 04:25 AM

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
Wow. A guy comes online, under an alias, in a forum hosted by and paid for by someone else, and tells the owner to do an obscene act.

One of the least classy and rudest things I've ever seen around here.
That was exactly my reaction to his post.

Dave
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Postby Terry » 12/23/05 08:49 AM

I tried to screw myself once. It hurt and left a scar. I don't recommend it.
T.M.I. Dustin! Guess we could nickname you - Elephant man? :eek:
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Postby Guest » 12/23/05 09:08 AM

You're all quite correct. It was indeed rude of me to say that to Richard. J'mapologize, Richard.

My reaction is a strong one because I knew Irvin Feld in the 50's and 60's, and knew him to be quite kind. I also knew him to put the best interest of his circus above all else.

As for posting it here, Whit brought his forum here, and therefore invites criticism of it here. Besides, I'd no more post on a forum that drags my friend's name through the mud than I would visit the home of the slanderer himself. Why would I foul my good (imaginary) name by associating it with trash?

There's no shortage of discussion here about things that happen elsewhere, so it's not without precedent.

Now, on to more important matters; you're all behaving like Republicans who, instead of dealing with the President's misdeeds, attack the messenger in hopes that it will distract.

Is there not one single person here who will stand up for the man who took S&R to the top of the profession, and therefore was a big part of the magic resurgence in Las Vegas? Not ONE?

Shame on all of you who stand silent.

M.E.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 12/23/05 10:32 AM

Originally posted by MagicalElder:
Now, on to more important matters; you're all behaving like Republicans who, instead of dealing with the President's misdeeds, attack the messenger in hopes that it will distract.
Perhaps you should take your own advice.

John
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/23/05 11:09 AM

And so we say so long to Magical Elder, who obviously hasn't learned the first lesson of visting someone else's home: don't insult the host.
Regarding your other point: I was happy to point out to Marlo when he was alive that he was a crook--and not only is he a thief, but quite possibly the biggest thief in the history of card magic. And if you don't like it, you can go hang out with Randy Wakeman and his pals somewhere else.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/23/05 01:37 PM

THE COWARD'S WAY
I received a private message from MagicalElder before he closed his aol account (preventing me from replying). I thought I would print it here so if anyone actually knows who MagicalElder is, you might be inclined to "out" him--because only a coward would refuse to sign his name to a letter like this:

From MagicalElder:

Go f**k yourself.

You use your forum to rant, rave, and drag through the mud anyone you see fit to bully. (Mostly those who are too dead to seriously defend themselves.) You're a cheap, common little man. Nothing but a turd on sole of the shoe of magic, and no amount of publishing of some half-decent books will ever raise you above that status.

You call Marlo a thief, but proudly and admittedly run ads in your magazine for people you KNOW are ripping off creators. And you rationalize this complicity by saying "It's not my problem."

The only thing worse than a whore is the whoremaster himself.

THAT is an insult, your greasy little nothing. Not the love letter I wrote on your ridiculous bully pulpit.

I'll be seeing you around, Richard. And when you come over to say hello and shake my hand, I'll smile and tell you how nice it is to see you...then I'll go wash the stench from my hands.

Did you know, Richard, that behind your back people mock you for that silly little rant you do when someone mispronounces your name? Did you know that the people whose cards you are not fit to crimp roll their eyes and call you Richie Moocow when you leave the room?

Enjoy the holidays, laughingstock.
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Postby Robert Allen » 12/23/05 01:52 PM

Moocow????
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/23/05 05:17 PM

I think it's a drink.
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Postby Guest » 12/23/05 05:27 PM

I do know that 'moocow' is a very important part of the funniest story I ever heard from an Irish coworker.
Steve V
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Postby Pete McCabe » 12/23/05 08:57 PM

Is it worth reviewing forum policy that allows people to post anonymously? I realize this has been discussed before, and I recall that there were some reasons to allow anonymous posting given, but I can't remember what they were. Whatever they might have been, I'm trying to remember anything that I've read in the forum that was of necessity posted anonymously. I'm not saying that no anonymous poster has ever posted anything of value. I'm just saying I don't remember anything of value that was only posted because of the protection offered by anonymity.

Against that we have an ongoing record of people like MagicalElder crapping all over the forum, insulting people and behaving like an ass without offering any content of any substance. I realize you can always scroll the people like that. But you can scroll alt.magic too, except no one does because the noise-to-signal ration is way too high.

The Genii Forum has a very high signal-to-noise ratio, which I believe is a large part of its success. I'm open to being reminded of anonymous posts that were significant, but I think this ratio could be improved by adopting the No Anonymous Posting rule.
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Postby Guest » 12/23/05 10:32 PM

Since most people posting here are, or should be, subscribers of Genii ( I'm not saying non-subscribers shouldn't post here! ), I think it
is only fair to post using ones real name.

When I mentioned the same opinion re solely using ones real name at another board/forum, the posting soon got deleted. (Make a qualified guess what that board might have been ;) )

I realize, the risks involved using ones real name on the internet, IS big -for various reasons known to the old hands of the game-, but this IMHO solely depends on what forum one is attending.

IF one solely does post about totally legal issues and one can voutch with ones 'name' for what one posts, I think it is preferable to solely let people using their own name, post at 'this' board.

My earlier engagement in -at that time- totally legal issues like 'playing' non-commercial(as a hobby) with encrypted satelitte TV decryption, has been used here at this board by some silly person to imply, I wasn't trustworthy ( a fraud/grifter/cheat ) but as -at least- *I* could read out of the posting of that guy, he had not the slightest idea what this was all about.

Also, the tone on diff. newsgroups/forums is different.

I still think posters using 'anonymous' names shouldn't be allowed to post on any board dealing with legal subjects, like this forum/board here is.

If one really can stand behind ones postulations, one also can use ones real name when bringing those postulations forward.

I can back up anything I have said regarding some incredible absolutely 'non-trustworthy person', but I would never involve my 'sources', one can compare this to a journalist, using his sources but always protect them, because if he didn't, he would loose the personal info he gets from them.

The fact, 'one' does use his real/own name -also when bringing forward opinions and informations on other people- should be enough for a serious discussion, instead of always doubting what's mentioned, telling the poster he isn't trustworthy, unless prooving his opinions by involving others and probably well known/trustworthy ppl, his sources..

Sorry for in the above speaking from personal experience, my remarks in general re anonymous posters are not aimed at any case I was involved.

My suggestion still is, get rid of anonymous posters, the excuse re the danger of using ones own and real name is about zero, as long as one is on the legal side regarding the issue in question.

However, participating in forums and newsgroups and deslike, that are operating on the edge of the law gives the need to use an anonymous name.

Now, re the law, this is a funny (or rather sad) thing.

The law does change accordingly to politicians being influenzed by f.ex. 'lobbyisme', and what's legal today can get illegal tomorrow and vice versa!

Note this, because it is a fact of life..and note the basics any decent human being has to obey..

It's very simple..

*Don't do to others, what you don't want others to do to you*.


Using this rule you can't get it wrong..

You should not steal from others, you should not kill.
Attack them within reason verbally if this is justified, as others also are allowed to attack you verbally, because nobody is always 'correct' in ones opinion.

Get rid of anonymouis posters, JMHO.. :D

Merry Christmas!
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Postby Guest » 12/23/05 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
.....before he closed his aol account (preventing me from replying).
Are you sure he did?

You actually normally can't be sure, unless you ask aol directly!

He might use a 'mailwasher', inserting your name in his 'blacklist' and then you'll get bounced any mail you send off to him, in exactly the same way, with exactly the same headers and wordings, then when you get a 'real' bouce from a non-existing adress, you can't se the difference...

Not a bad thing to run such a mailwasher :D

Edited:
Se f.ex. http://www.firetrust.com

You are welcome to make a test..
Send me an email -contents doesn't matter- and it will get bounced automatically directly from my ISPs server!

One can also set the mailwasher up to leave it up to the receiver to deside (manually), wheather he wants to take it 'in' on his PC or wants to bounce it..

Nevretheless, I'm able to read the contents of your mail, without it ever entered my PC, I'll read it directly on the server!

No kidding.. :D

Remember ! YOU should be in charge what you want to enter your own PC and not 'anybody' else!
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Postby Bill Mullins » 12/24/05 12:50 AM

The problem with requiring "real" names is one of authentication. I post using the name "Bill Mullins", but how do you know that my name isn't really "Werner G. Seitz"?

If Richard or one of the other moderators had to authenticate every account (fax a driver's license?), the simplest thing would be to shut it down.
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Postby Guest » 12/24/05 01:23 AM

Or you could have a rule of no posts before certain time elapsed since join date.
That could be a month or three months period where a new member can read posts but can not post himself.
Sure someone could wait 3 months and then start trouble but it wouldn't be worth it in my opinion getting your account deleted because of it.
See what I mean, new member would earn the posting rights and it would not be that easy.
Easy!
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Postby Guest » 12/24/05 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
The problem with requiring "real" names is one of authentication. I post using the name "Bill Mullins", but how do you know that my name isn't really "Werner G. Seitz"?
I know what you mean...
And it wasn't intended, neither needed, to be timeconsuming to do a fast check.

One other claim apart from using ones name should be, not to allow use of hotmail, Yahoo and similar anonymous mailproviders, but ones REAL ISP.

This normally automatically also will make ones emailadress comparable to ones name, even if the addy is in abbreviations.

That's all that has to be checket out, and the rest can be judged via a persons postings ;)

Even if the emailadress isn't in the profil all members can look up, Richard has it when registrating, so actually a such check is VERY fast, but nothing of that kind is surefire, but more safe than allowing anonymous posters without any critical look at who they *might* be.

Sideremark:
Forget that driverslicense and similar stuff to be faxed -things expected from f.ex.PayPal when something goes wrong, this neither is surefire and can easily be a cause of falsery as can ones birthcertification.
100% security can never get achieved in any case...
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Postby Guest » 12/24/05 05:43 AM

As the Xmas tree is ready here at my place, and so is the duck I've prepared to get done later for the little lady and me -I'm doing the food- I have time to add a few things I thought where obvious, but on second thought might not be.

Apart from what I mentioned re checking the *real* name in comparance with the email-addy provided, one of course (this is default at a lot of boards/forums) should get an activation code for ones account/membership mailed to the email-adress providet!

This would prevent 'strangers' would f.ex. using my name and my email-addy to get registret.

Apart from this, nobody with any sense ever would use *my* name to register anywhere, unless they don't know me, because the 'ban' and restrictions on a lot of activities on the net are known to those knowing me and so knowing the risk :D , what they don't know however is my participance at those boards I still want to be part of without the boardowners knowing I'm present there, despite of my IP-adress bann, but that's my bizz. ;)

One of the *magic*-boards around, the 'large' one however hasn't to be afraid, I'm not interested in frequenting it, the politics they use is not to my liking, to put it mildly and that even when being in an Xmas spirit :rolleyes:

Back to topic:
A new members account solely would get activated, if *I* would respond to the mail send to *my* adress.

All of the above is default on most boards, trying to prevent total lamers and troublemakers in an anonymous way would participate on *my* board ( If I was the owner of a such board ).

The trouble involved to go to these few steps, will at least reveal, whom one is talking to.

Checking this boards members list, there are a lot of ppl there, that have nothing to hide or to be afraid of..starting with the owner of this board, via Whit Haydn, Bill Palmer, Denis Behr, Andrew J. Pinard, Al Schneider..you name them, they are here using their OWN name, they have nothing to hide.

Even f.ex. Al Schneider, does use his 'real' name, being a programmer and user of the net, he no doubt knows all about the risks, nevertheless he did choose to indentify himself!!

Pls. think about it... JMHO !
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Postby mago » 12/24/05 07:39 AM

I have to admit that it really is better to log in to our beloved magic websites with our Correct name.

I regret that when I created my account, I used the name "mago" instead of my real name.

I did this because I had worked for many years of my life in Mexico and Cuba.

Mago means magician.

Having said that, I feel that it should be required for all to post with your correct name.

Tom Wolf

And a Very Merry Christmas to all.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 12/24/05 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
The problem with requiring "real" names is one of authentication. I post using the name "Bill Mullins", but how do you know that my name isn't really "Werner G. Seitz"?

If Richard or one of the other moderators had to authenticate every account (fax a driver's license?), the simplest thing would be to shut it down.
Thank you Bill. We've been over this 100 times. Sure, we'd prefer it if folks would use their real name. But, if people want to use "handles" we will not stop them.

Dustin
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Postby Guest » 12/24/05 08:55 AM

Another board deleting postings making sense? :rolleyes: I mean, IMHO...

So long Genii board, no further postings from me, I see you can be without me, which makes sense too.
Merry Christmas
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Postby Guest » 12/24/05 09:03 AM

Hmmm, it looks like we can safely ignore some that post under their real name as well.
Auf Wiedersehen Herr Seitz.
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