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A place where beginners can participate, ask questions, and post their views. However, beginners typically ask a lot of questions about sources, tricks, books, and so on. In fact, all magicians are interested (or should be) in the provenance of tricks, ideas, and related matters. This department will service these needs.

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 05/15/03 05:31 PM

If I have a deck set up so the first 26 cards mirror the second 26 exp:
1. 6D 26. 6C
2. 4H 27. 4D
3. JS 28. JC

What and who invented this principle?

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Postby Guest » 05/15/03 06:36 PM

Jeff,
Sounds to me like you are looking at the "Stay-Stack" and you can purchase a book using that principle called "Redivider" by none other than the magic genius Mr. Phil Goldstein A.K.A. Max Maven. Martin Nash also uses that in one of his routines. Buy the book it is very interesting and only $15.00
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 05/15/03 06:48 PM

Rennie,
Thank you. I had a feeling it is the Stay-stack. I would rather not buy RedivideR at this time as I am having fun working out my own effects using this principle.

Does anybody know the creator/discoveror of the stay-stack?

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Postby Lance Pierce » 05/15/03 07:14 PM

Rusduck?
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Postby Matthew Field » 05/16/03 12:49 PM

Right, Lance. Rusduck, or Russell J. Duck, publisher of The Cardiste , one of the great underground magazines, within the pages of which Rusduck tracked the Stay Stack to its lair.

This is one of the reprints which Mr. Kaufman seems to be saying will never see the light of day -- at least in book form.

Oh, Chris!!??

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Postby luigimar » 05/16/03 12:51 PM

On reading the Elmsley books (and I don't have them with me right now to check), I seem to recall that he (Elmsley) also independently found the Stay Stack idea but Rusduck published it first. But Elmsley had advanced much more in the study of stay stack and sent Rusduck more information about it.

In case you are interested, Roy Walton has some stay stack tricks hidden in the second of his 'complete works' books.

Good Luck with stay stacking!

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Postby pduffie » 05/16/03 02:01 PM

Jeff

The stack you describe is not, in itself, a Stay Stack. It's only a Stay Stack once you Faro it. After each Faro, the relationship between pairs "stays" and the mirrored sections remain mirrored.

There are tricks using mirrored stacks that do not use the Stay Stack principle.

Best Wishes

Peter
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Postby Guest » 05/16/03 04:33 PM

Where is Harry Loraine's ultima(ultimate) move in print, I have been searching for two days. I do not have his latest book but I have most evwerything else. Thanks...Mike
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Postby Lance Pierce » 05/16/03 08:35 PM

Originally posted by Peter Duffie:
Jeff

The stack you describe is not, in itself, a Stay Stack. It's only a Stay Stack once you Faro it. After each Faro, the relationship between pairs "stays" and the mirrored sections remain mirrored.

There are tricks using mirrored stacks that do not use the Stay Stack principle.

Best Wishes

Peter
Agh, Peter, you're right. I saw the words "Stay stack" being bandied about, and I didn't even look closely at the arrangement in Jeff's original post. In a stay stack, of course, card #1 is mirrored by card #52, card #2 by card #51, and so on.

Sorry about that...


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Postby Pete McCabe » 05/17/03 09:55 AM

Well, far be it for me to disagree with Peter Duffie, but I can't see how the stack described would become a stay stack when faroed. After the faro you'd have:

1. 6C
2. 6D
3. 4H
4. 4D

This isn't stay stack order, and it wouldn't remain intact after a further faro.

Right?
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Postby pduffie » 05/17/03 10:26 AM

Actually, I never looked at his stack after I read :

"If I have a deck set up so the first 26 cards mirror the second 26"

I agree the stack shown is not a mirror stack, nor does it agree with what Jeff Pierce said he had.

Perhaps Mr Pierce (Jeff - we have two Mr. Pierce's here!) could confirm which is correct?

Regards

Peter
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 05/18/03 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Peter Duffie:
Actually, I never looked at his stack after I read :

"If I have a deck set up so the first 26 cards mirror the second 26"

I agree the stack shown is not a mirror stack, nor does it agree with what Jeff Pierce said he had.

Perhaps Mr Pierce (Jeff - we have two Mr. Pierce's here!) could confirm which is correct?

Peter, Pete and Lance,
Thank you for all the info. I think in my original post I said "the first 26 cards mirror the second" and the example I gave shows this.

Maybe I should have said "the second 26 cards repeat the same numeric value as the first 26. The suits are the only thing different.

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Postby pduffie » 05/18/03 11:19 PM

Thanks Jeff. This is simply a rotational or cyclical stack. Si Stebbins is a popular example. Eight Kings, another. These stacks can be freely cut without breaking the sequence. A mirror stack would have read:

1. 6D 52. 6C
2. 4H 51. 4D
3. JS 50. JC

A mirror stack cannot be cut, but retains its 26/26 mirror after unlimited Faro Shuffles, Off Center Faros, or other Faro-related shuffles (Reverse Faro, Deal mix, etc).

Best Wishes

Peter
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Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » 05/19/03 03:27 AM

Originally posted by Peter Duffie:
Thanks Jeff. This is simply a rotational or cyclical stack. Si Stebbins is a popular example. Eight Kings, another. These stacks can be freely cut without breaking the sequence. A mirror stack would have read:

1. 6D 52. 6C
2. 4H 51. 4D
3. JS 50. JC

A mirror stack cannot be cut, but retains its 26/26 mirror after unlimited Faro Shuffles, Off Center Faros, or other Faro-related shuffles (Reverse Faro, Deal mix, etc).

Best Wishes

Peter
Peter, that make sense. When I started developing these effects I was using rhe Si Stebbins setup. I realizes that I could randomize the deck still maintaining the 26th card away principle.

Any credit ideas for this kind of stack?

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Postby Carl Mercurio » 05/21/03 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Mike Walsh II:
Where is Harry Loraine's ultima(ultimate) move in print, I have been searching for two days. I do not have his latest book but I have most evwerything else. Thanks...Mike
Mike,
I'm not sure why you posted this during a discussion about Stay Stack, but I believe the move you're looking for is in Afterthoughts....
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Postby Guest » 05/21/03 07:06 AM

Take a look at "COINCIDENCE" in Bill Simon's EFFECTIVE CARD MAGIC. It uses a mini version - or as long as you want to make it - of the mirror stack in a very effective routine.
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