A place where beginners can participate, ask questions, and post their views. However, beginners typically ask a lot of questions about sources, tricks, books, and so on. In fact, all magicians are interested (or should be) in the provenance of tricks, ideas, and related matters. This department will service these needs.

Postby Guest » 06/28/07 11:18 AM

Does anyone know if Cagliostro ever left any notes on his methods or tricks? If they are available, or even exist, does anyone know where they could be found?

Postby Guest » 06/28/07 11:30 AM

Like Joseph Balsamo Cagliostro? I'm pretty sure his methods are long gone.

Postby Guest » 06/28/07 02:22 PM

If you have the right key to get in the

Vatican's library,I'm quite sure you will find

direct and indirect references.Unfortunally the

library will be closed for works for at least 3

years,but still they will have some books as

photographic copys available.So we have been


Postby Guest » 06/28/07 03:59 PM

Shadow, by "tricks," do you mean magic tricks as we think of them today? I don't think Cagliostro has ever really been regarded or treated as "one of us." Rather, he was/is known as a charlatan. He probably did use conjuring principles to work some of his "miracles," but I doubt very much that he ever would have left a record of his use thereof - that would have helped to ruin his reputation (not that his reputation amongst some of his contemporaries was all that sterling to begin with!).

I have a small library (about 50 volumes) of biographical and autobiographical works covering Cagliostro (including a few from the late 1700s), and Ive yet to read anything that seriously discusses Cagliostros methods of deception in the performance of magic as we know it today.

All that said, if you dig up something to the contrary, please let me know. Like Katterfelto, D. D. Home and a few others, Cagliostros life has always intrigued me.


Postby Guest » 07/02/07 07:01 AM

I'll do that, Clay. My main intrest in him is his charisma, but it would seem that to fool thousands of people including Royalty and laymen alike, he would have to demonstrate his supposed "powers". As I was just typing this I had the thought- Oddly enough, his fate was similar to that of Dr.John Dee. Coincidence?

Postby Guest » 07/03/07 11:04 AM

Most of his "effects", performed for royatly, involved the alchemical transformation of base metals.

Postby Guest » 07/03/07 01:02 PM

Now those effects are rarely seen in the magic acts of today! ;)

Postby Guest » 07/04/07 07:54 AM

From what I understand, Dr. Dee died in poverty in the care of one of his daughters, while Cagliostro died in prison. He'd originally been sentenced to death by the Pope for being a Mason, later commuted to life in prison.

Cagliostro seems to have been a conscious fraud while Dr. Dee seems to have been a genuine believer, what we today would call a "shut eye."

Postby Guest » 07/04/07 12:05 PM

Not just for being a mason, Cagliostro opened a lodge of his Egyptian rite in Rome. That is what brought him down essentially, along with the affair of the diamond necklace.

Postby Guest » 07/04/07 02:33 PM

Historically, Popes have been free to act on their feelings of shaman rivalry.

Didn't Cagliostro's wife sell him out?

Postby Guest » 07/04/07 03:45 PM

Most magi think of him as the character portrayed by Orsen Welles or as depicted by Dumas in his books.

His was actually an incredible life....extensive travel & the company of some of Europe's top personalities.

As if the free masonery wouldn't be enough to freak the Church, his extensive involvement with the Rosicrucian movement (whose order is alive & well in California; albeit infused with more trendy New Age psycho-babble)& designing some of their ritualistic set pieces would surely doom him. As an "enemy" of BOTH the noblity (via the alleged involvement in the "Diamond necklace" affair) and the Church (via the alleged scandalous personal behavior & association with free masonery, etc.) he never had a chance with either officialdoom or the Inquisition.

As for the "betrayal" by his wife, it is assumed by most scholars of the Inquisition that both he & his wife were tortured to produce the "confessions" tendered at his trial.

Postby Guest » 07/05/07 01:14 PM

I did not intend to discredit Dr.Dee or place him under the same classification as Cagliostro, and I hope that I didn't come accross that way. I have John Dee's 'Five Books of Mysteries' and 'A True and Faithful Revelation'. I have great admiration and respect for John Dee. My former post was an error. An error- okay, an outright mistake. I was thinking of the problems that Agrippa had and visualizing John Dee at the same time.(I have been studying 'Three Books of Occult Philosophy'also for background in acting and patter) I am learning though that while Agrippa and Dee are genuine (Actually Edward Kelly was the seer' and Dee translated) Cagliostro seems to have basically been nothing but a BS artist. - Still, he makes for a good study and conversation.

Postby Guest » 07/15/07 08:14 PM

Most of these books of this type were written by people other than the ones named on the title pages. I have serious doubts about the value of the information in any of them.

Postby Guest » 07/16/07 09:40 AM

Yes, doubt is a healthy thing. It leads us to search for the truth. I'm not sure if you are familiar with Donald Tyson or not, but the editions I have are annotated him. Many of the original manuscripts of such books contain numerous errors (in some cases by the original author, in others by the interpreter) but in either case Agrippa is acknowledeged of the father of many manuscripts that were ripped off by other people- I.E. 'The Magus' by frances Barrett. However, this does not relate to Cagliostro, and I have 20 years of occult study behind me. Tyson is a highly credible and respected Magician ( Ceremonial). Perhaps your doubt will lead you to accurate research and past the "mumbo jumbo" that seems to plague modern times. By the way, if you doubt John Dee's manuscripts perhaps you should drop by the British Museum and take a look at the originals, the table of practice, and the Sigillum Dei Ameth?Theses texts were found in a hidden compartment of a drawer from a desk owned by John Dee. ( Unfortuanetly, the Golden Dawn did not recognize that the manuscripts were meant to be a complete system and seperated the 'Enochian Calls' from the rest of the text. For more on this you can research 'Enochian magc for Beginners' by Donald Tyson. Don't let the title fool you.)
I Find it highly unlikely that someone would go through the effort of research and inventtion of a system of languange equipped with cooresponding symbols and mathematical correspondences (In both books listed) and not list their own name so they could profit from either the reputation or copies of the original. What makes you qualified to place doubt or value in books in my library that you have not seen? Have you reseasrched them? Or, is this, as I suspect, mere speculation based on partial information?

Postby Guest » 07/17/07 11:44 AM

So this tantric enochian sexmagic...will it make my pass invisible?? :p

Postby Guest » 07/17/07 01:20 PM

"tantric enochian sexmagic...will it make my pass invisible??"
Well, if that doesn't provide enough misdirection to cover it, I guess that nothing will.


Postby Guest » 07/17/07 01:31 PM

:p Unfortunately, Tantra is Eastern and Enochian Magick is reputed to be delivered from angels of an apocoliptic nature to Dee and Kelly. This is not connected to the Book of Enoch which I do have serious doubts about it's authenticity but on to the point...
I don't know if Tantric sex magic will help your pass, but if it doesn't it will at least make you glad that you tried the method as often as possible.

Postby Guest » 07/17/07 09:01 PM

A particular Vernon quote about how to become a great magician comes to mind...
(not the same woman...DIFFERENT women) :p

Also, usually when I see enochian calls brought up it is usually in association with Thelema, the OTO, and almost always the particular flavor of tantra practiced in the OTO, which, granted, is not traditional tantra (watch out for that XI degree...).

Gotta run and...uhh work on my pass...

Postby Guest » 07/17/07 09:11 PM

To get the thread back on topic, I would suggest the book The Last Alchemist to anyone who wants to know more about the life of Cagliostro. There are also some older books about him, but I think this is the best written. Also check out the Comte de St. Germain. Essentially Cagliostro was copying the claims and effects(?) of St Germain. The claims were all the same: possession of the philosopher's stone, the elixir of life, the transformation of base metals, as well as claiming to be well over a thousand years old.
There is a book called simply Comte de St Germain I believe, as well as The Most Holy Trinosophia supposedly written by the Comte himself.

Postby Guest » 07/18/07 07:12 AM

Thank you, John for the reference books. ... Oh yes, that XI degree will be the best magic yet... one day I'll achieve it, but I'm not ready just yet. ;)

Postby Guest » 07/19/07 01:32 PM

One last note on this, sorry but I thought since it was public I would make a clarification.
Yes, The OTO and Thelema followers do mix Enochian with Tantra. The reasoning behind this is that once one system is fully understood it can be applied to another system effectively.
(Most of the time.) However, Enochian magic is system in and of itself that was not originally linked to Tantra. Unless you count Dee and Kelly sleeping with each other's wive's at the suggestion of the angelic spirit. (Or maybe Kelly's but he attibutes the order to do so to the angel.) But, while this knowledge will help further anyone intrested in learning about magic in the occult sense of the word, it probably won't help anyone's pass. (It could make for some intresting patter though in the right setting.)
However, this is a magic forum of the other kind.
Anyone intrested in the factual history of magick may contact me at my e-mail address. I don't have any love spells or lucky charms...sorry. But, I will happily provide you with a list of references for your own study and interpretation.
Please note: I do not advocate trying to convert anyone and respect all spiritual paths, I expect the same in return. Now, back to reason we are here..... let's make some magic!

Postby Guest » 07/23/07 01:45 AM


Not to belittle your research in any way at all, but I have a very large personal library of occult matters, including a very large chunk of the Crowley material, which I have read and studied thoroughly.

It's not this material I find of dubious value. I was assuming, quite wrongly, that you were working from some of the slum paperbacks that were circulated on our side of the pond by people like Wehman and Weiser.

Since you are working with the material from the British Museum, you are accessing material that I could only hope to actually see.

I'm sure you will agree that there is a huge amount of B.S. that has been put on the market to satisfy the explosion in interest in occult matters during the past dozen or so years.

My interest goes back much further than that.
This said, my interest in the subject is strictly historical, and for use in plot material. I'm not a Ceremonial Magician.

But I do find the subject fascinating.

Postby Guest » 07/26/07 08:21 AM

Yes,I do agree. The majority of material available to the public is BS. This is why the public generally stays away from the occult and why many would-be students soon give up their search. I have been fortunate in this regard and have made reputable contacts over the years. Crowley's work is (as I'm sure you already know) rather cryptic at times and requires a great deal of research to see through the maddness. Otherwise, one may think that when he speaks of 'human sacrifice and the blood,etc.' that he means it in a literal sense- which he does not.
I never recommend that someone wishing to research occult beliefs and studies to study crowley until they have a firm grasp of the basics
and are well studied in kabbalisitic practices. I am aware of the tabloid type hysteria that you are refering to and I feel the same way about it as you do. Perhaps one day we will have the opportunity to discuss occult science in person as gentlemen. I never attempt to hide who I am or what I believe, but then- I don't wear it on my sleeve either. I began my research while in seminary school (prodestant) as a youth and remain
a student to this day. Thanks for the kind reply.
I apologize for being short with you before dicussing the issue as gentlemen as I should have.

Postby Guest » 07/28/07 05:31 PM

That's okay, Shadow Priest. When it concerns a subject as sensitive as this, it's easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood. I am familiar with some of the more obvious hidden messages Crowley put into his work. Crowley was very good at speaking in code.

Maybe that's one of the things that makes him intriguing.

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