HAYMOW SHUFFLE

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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/16/07 06:17 AM

Hi, everybody

Who can explain me the exact handling of the Haymow Shuffle because when I read page 130 of The Art of Magic (Dover Pub.)under the title Another Poker Trick, the handling looks like an Hindoo Shuffle.
Have I got things confused ?
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Postby Guest » 10/17/07 10:08 AM

Based on reading the trick, I think he said "Haymow Shuffle" when he meant "Hindu Shuffle".

The Haymow Shuffle is an overhand shuffle.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/17/07 11:54 AM

Thanks

But, to my knowledge, the Hindu Shuffle becomes in 1927 as told by Annemann in The Jinx N 56, may 1939, page 398 Light on the Hindu Shuffle.

It's for that I ask if I have made a confusion, because reading the instructions, the shuffle looks like a Hindu Shuffle.
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Postby Guest » 10/20/07 08:34 PM

Here's the Haymow as I learned it:

Click Here
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/21/07 01:40 AM

Thanks

In fact, the Haymow Shuffle is the Charlier Shuffle ?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/21/07 08:31 AM

The Haymow Shuffle happens to be explained in the current (November) issue of Genii in one of Max Maven's effects. The top and bottom cards of the deck are drawn off together and either dropped to the table in a pair, or drawn into the left hand in an Overhand Shuffle action. This is repeated.
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Postby Guest » 10/21/07 09:14 AM

Dear Richard,

In my books, I describe that action as The Klondike Shuffle; as also taught in many other card books.

I don't think I'm wrong...see, for instance, Card Magic of Gene Finnell...and, I think, a few Harry Lorayne Books and Peter Duffie writings.

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Postby Max Maven » 10/21/07 10:51 AM

Richard, you're confusing the issue. The procedure used in the "Minus Arcana" routine is, as stated in the text, a Klondike (sometimes spelled "Klondyke") Shuffle.

The Haymow Shuffle is actually more closely related to the Monge Shuffle, but that's for another thread.

In brief, the Haymow is done as follows: The pack is held in the left hand. The left thumb pushes over a block of cards toward the right. The right hand takes this block. The left thumb pushes over another block, which is taken beneath the first. Another block is pushed over, and taken on top of the right hand's stock. Continue alternating, until all of the cards are in the right hand.

It's a rather primitive shuffle, that is still in use in many western countries, primarily among people with little experience handling cards. (Ironically, it actually does a better job of mixing than most more sophisticated shuffles.)

The Charlier Shuffle is actually a false Haymow. It looks much the same, but the deck is not mixed; at the conclusion, the pack is not mixed; rather, it has simply been given a complete cut.
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 10/21/07 10:56 AM

Paul, you are correct -- I think Richard just had a brain fart, since it is described as the "Klondike Shuffle" in the Genii issue.

I think that the Haymow Shuffle in this case is simply an overhand shuffle. I've come across a number of other references that indicate it's usage that way.

-Jim
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/21/07 11:34 AM

Max is absolutely correct and, after 10 days in Japan, I am a bit daffy.

Jim: I find the expression "brain fart" to be genuninely revolting. :)
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/21/07 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Max Maven:


The Haymow Shuffle is actually more closely related to the Monge Shuffle, but that's for another thread.

In brief, the Haymow is done as follows: The pack is held in the left hand. The left thumb pushes over a block of cards toward the right. The right hand takes this block. The left thumb pushes over another block, which is taken beneath the first. Another block is pushed over, and taken on top of the right hand's stock. Continue alternating, until all of the cards are in the right hand.

It's a rather primitive shuffle, that is still in use in many western countries, primarily among people with little experience handling cards. (Ironically, it actually does a better job of mixing than most more sophisticated shuffles.)

The Charlier Shuffle is actually a false Haymow. It looks much the same, but the deck is not mixed; at the conclusion, the pack is not mixed; rather, it has simply been given a complete cut.
Exactly !!!

In fact Haymow Shuffle is the equivalence of our old shuffle named "Mlange au pouce (thumb shuffle)" in french (See Robert-Houdin for a Stack with this shuffle) and even Camille Gaultier in Magic without Appaaratus still described this shuffle in 1914.

Now, if we go back to my first question, do you think the explanation of controlling the three Aces (in The Art of Magic, page 130, Another Poker Trick) is made with the Haymow Shuffle or a kind of Hindoo Shuffle ?

Here is the excerpt :

"Place the three Aces in center of Pack, keeping the little finger above them. Now make the Haymow Shuffle. This is accomplished by drawing out the under half of the pack, that is to say, the packet below the little finger, and slapping it rather forcibly on the top packet. Now undercut about three quarters of the pack and allow the cards to drop in small paquets on the packet remaining in the left hand. Ad the three top cards of this packets are the aces, the little finger must be kept on top of the packet. The final movement is to draw out this undermost packet and drop it on top."

I realise that Hilliard don't tell us to take the bottom half by the lower corners (as we do with the Hindoo Shuffle) but this description is very curious (for me).
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 10/21/07 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Jim: I find the expression "brain fart" to be genuninely revolting. :)
Sorry, Richard, let me rephrase. I think you passed gas from your cranium. ;)

-Jim
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Postby Guest » 10/21/07 02:50 PM

The description of the Haymow Shuffle in T.A. Waters' "Encyclopedia of Magic and Magicians" is as given above by Mr. Maven, and the entry for the Charlier Shuffle says it is also known as a False Haymow Shuffle. T.A. Waters also says that in Britain the term Haymow Shuffle is "sometimes applied to a mixing procedure in which the cards are divided into two halves, spread slightly, and then pushed together to interleave in random fashion. This latter procedure is said to be the oldest known method commonly used for shuffling cards." - although I don't think I've ever seen this kind of mixing referred to as a Haymow Shuffle anywhere else.

As for the description in Downs' book, it could be referring to an overhand shuffle, except for the part about "drawing out the under half", which does indeed sound like a Hindu Shuffle because if you're holding a little finger break it would be hard to go straight into an overhand shuffle. So after "drawing out" the lower half as in a Hindu Shuffle and placing it on top, you continue with an overhand shuffle ("undercut ... and allow the cards to drop in small packets on the packet remaining in the left hand"). I must admit when I first read it I too thought it sounded like a Hindu Shuffle though, because of that first action.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/22/07 12:12 AM

Thanks Edwin

That is curious you have to do first, one undercut (like the beginning of a Hindu Shuffle, then change your grip to do an overhand shuffle, and at least, one more time an undercut (again like an H.S.)to bring back the aces on top.

Why not, after the undercut, an overhand shuffle with injog to control the top stock ? We are in 1909 and Erdnase's book has been published.
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Postby Guest » 10/22/07 12:32 AM

I don't think the term "undercut" implies a Hindu Shuffle - the first action of an overhand shuffle is an undercut. "Drawing out" the bottom half and "slapping it onto the top packet" definitely suggest a Hindu Shuffle, and from there you can change grip and start an overhand shuffle, even though you have to let the cards lie almost flat in your left hand in order to hold the little finger break. For the final action we are told to "draw out" the bottom packet rather than "undercut"; that may be an inconsistency and perhaps part of the reason for the confusion.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 10/22/07 01:22 AM

Thanks for all these interesting points
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