reference needed

A place where beginners can participate, ask questions, and post their views. However, beginners typically ask a lot of questions about sources, tricks, books, and so on. In fact, all magicians are interested (or should be) in the provenance of tricks, ideas, and related matters. This department will service these needs.

Postby Guest » 01/08/08 02:45 PM

I need reference info on who came up with the you do as I do plot. Was it Vernon?

Jeff Pierce
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Postby Max Maven » 01/09/08 02:23 AM

It goes back a tad earlier than Dai Vernon.

The basic plot can be found in Robert-Houdin's
Secrets of Conjuring & Magic, 1868.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 01/09/08 05:40 AM

The premisse of this trick is in Robert-Houdin's The Secrets of Conjuring and Magic (1868 in France & 1878 in England, translated by Prof. Hoffmann) The Sympathetic Cards.
I write "premisse" because two spectators choose a card but not the magician.

Then Roterberg, in New Era Card Tricks -1897, gives 3 methods with the magician and one spectator in play.

In 1910, appears the title "Do As I Do" in Ten Self-working Master Card Effects with Ordinary Playing Cards by Sydney Lawrence.

But I don't when the simplier method (a key card) appears and I'll be happy (like Droppy) if someone tells it to me.

For these references, we have to thank Jack Potter's Index.

Onward ! (as said Sir Jon).
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Postby Guest » 01/09/08 07:01 AM

Thanks Max and Phillip, let me narrow it down a little more. If you give your spectator 4 cards and you have four cards, they must follow you in turning and dealing the cards, but in the end they don't match what you have.

Does that make sense?

Jeff
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 01/09/08 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Jeff Pierce:
If you give your spectator 4 cards and you have four cards, they must follow you in turning and dealing the cards, but in the end they don't match what you have.
Are you referring to Vernon's Variant from Ultimate Secrets of Card Magic?

-Jim
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Postby Guest » 01/09/08 07:44 AM

Off the top of my head, I think the four-card version stemmed from a five-card version that was published in GREATER MAGIC (1938) called "Do As I Do--You Can't. Once the Elmsley Count emerged (broke-through?), the wonderful REPEAT VERSION with four cards came into being, a trick I associate with Vernon, Zarrow, and Frank Thompson. Maybe Max or others can parse this one?

Onward,

JR
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Postby Guest » 01/09/08 08:12 AM

Is this about the spectator-failure plot or just the card matching effect?

Also, where does the version using the gaffed card fit into the history of the spectator failure routine's evolution?
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Postby Guest » 01/09/08 08:36 AM

Jonathan, I guess it would be the spectator failing as they never match what you have. I can send a couple of you my routine, it might help track the reference down. email me jeffpiercemagic@aol.com and I'll send it along.

Jeff
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Postby Philippe Billot » 01/12/08 01:54 AM

In the Potter's Index, we read that a man named Jay Dee sells the trick Do As I Do, You Can't in 1931 (Abbott) but Potter in the Pentagram, Vol 7 N 7, april 1953, page 56, write he doesn't know who was this man. He explains Jay Dee's trick under the title Kortially Yours II.
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Postby David Britland » 01/12/08 10:03 AM

I think there might be some confusion here.

Just checked Ask Alexander and found the following information.

When Jack Potter writes about Jay Dee's version of 'Do As I Do' in The Pentagram, it's in the context of a trick in which the spectator and magician are handling packets, not decks, of cards. The spectator tries to follow the actions of the magician as he turns cards upside down etc.

This is not the 'You Do I As I Do' trick which involves two decks, two identical selections and a key card.

On that basis maybe the Jack Potter reference in the Linking Ring is unintentionally misleading if you take it to mean that all 'Do As I Do' effects involve sympathetic selections.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 01/12/08 10:56 AM

In his index, Potter makes the difference between the two tricks.

1) Do As I Do is the classic coincidence which begins with Robert-Houdin as said at the beginning of this thread

and

2) Do As I Do - You Can't is the one with small packets (generally 5) where the spectator can't do like the magus.

In the Potter's Index, there is also a version attributed to U.F. Grant in Encyclopedia of Card Magic (1937) under the title U Can't Do As I Do, (version 2) with the help of a DF Card.
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Postby David Britland » 01/12/08 12:12 PM

Hi Philippe

Are both those tricks credited to Jay Dee?

In the Pentagram the trick that is credited to Jay Dee appears to be the one involving a packet of cards.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 01/12/08 01:00 PM

Jay Dee is credited only for "Do As I Do - You Can't".

Who knows who was Jay Dee ?
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