Credit References needed

A place where beginners can participate, ask questions, and post their views. However, beginners typically ask a lot of questions about sources, tricks, books, and so on. In fact, all magicians are interested (or should be) in the provenance of tricks, ideas, and related matters. This department will service these needs.

Postby TOBIAS » 02/17/05 05:09 PM

1)First mention of the Classic Force?_________
2)First mention of both passes the classic and Herman?_________
3)Which Books did these Downs change, Lepaul instaneous change come from?_________
4)Arthur Buckley principles and deception is the where the first write up of the muscle pass was?_________
5)Where was the first idea for coin on shoulder come from?_________
6)What was the first Dice routine at the finger tips?_________
7)Who came up with the first signature transfer from two card to one, gaffed or not?_________
8)Eddie T? came up with the Hindu Pop out?_________
9)Where was the first watch steal in print?_________
10)Where was the Kelly bottom placement first written up.
11)Where was the first triumph wrote?_________
12)Where was the first slop shuffle triumph wrote?_________
13)Who Published the first Spoon Bend?_________

Thanks for the help!!!! :help:
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Postby Guest » 02/17/05 06:03 PM

1. It is believed that the first mention of the classic fan force in print occurred in 1584 in Reginald Scots The Discoverie of Witchcraft.

2. The first publication of the classic force was in Gilles-Edme Guyots Nouvelles Rcrations, Physiques et Mathmatiques (1740). The Herrmann pass was first published in August Roterbergs New Era Card Tricks (1897). Until recently, the technique was thought to have been invented by Alexander Herrmann (although it was occasionally attributed to his brother, Compars). New research by Magic Christian indicates that the pass was actually invented by Viennese conjurer Johann Nepomuk Hofzinser.

3. The Downs change was published in T. Nelson Downs The Art of Magic in 1909 (ghostwritten by John Northern Hilliard). Paul LePauls instantaneous transformation can be found in his book The Card Magic of LePaul (1949).

4. Indeed, the muscle pass was first published in Arthur Buckleys Principles and Deceptions in 1948.

7. Wesley James was the first to devise a routine where signatures from two cards join on opposite sides of a single card.

10. This bottom placement technique was independently created by Joe Ovette and Frank Kelly. Ovette released a manuscript in 1927 called The Master Move that detailed the move. The technique was later published as Frank Kellys Bottom Placement in Harlan Tarbells The Tarbell Course in Magic, Volume 3 (1943).

11. The effect dates back to Sid Lorraine's The SL Reversed Card in the 1937 Stewart Judah-John Braun collaboration Subtle Problems You Will Do. The most popular method is Dai Vernons, which was published in Stars of Magic in 1946 (Series 2, No. 1).

12. The aforementioned Sid Lorraine trick marks the first publication of the slop shuffle.

Cameron
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Postby Guest » 02/17/05 06:20 PM

I salute you sir!
Steve V
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Postby TOBIAS » 02/18/05 12:10 PM

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
I am looking to make sure I have all my credits, so people understand I am not trying to steal from any one, and I want to give all the giants before us the just do.

Any more help would be awesome.

Once again thanks.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/18/05 03:36 PM

Very good, Cameron.
Except the so-call Herrmann Pass was described before (1888) in The Book of Card Tricks by R. Kunard.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/18/05 04:03 PM

Hi, TOBIAS

1 : In the Scot's book, the Force is very simple. You shuffle retaining the bottom card you know then you simply show it to a spectator asking him to remember THIS card. Too simple ? Yes, but effective in 1584 (and before).

6 : If you are speaking about the two dices which change, held between the thumb and first finger, I think it's one of the older trick with the Cups and Balls.
There is a description in Supplment la Nouvelle Magie Blanche Dvoile (1859) by Jean Nicolas Ponsin but I'm sure there is a description long before.

8 : If you are speaking of the Pop Out Move, the first description I know is in The Gen, Vol 20, N3, July 1964 but it's attributed to Piet Forton. I know there is a contestation with Eddy Taytelbaum but I don't know who is right.

11 : For the word TRIUMPH, see Stars of Magic, Series 2, N1, 1946, Dai Vernon. Before everybody said TOPSY TORVY shuffle.

In the Twenties, Charles Jordan described a trick entitled Reversed Cards in which :

"Cards are dealt off the deck one at a time into the right hand so that every other card is face up. The cards are shown to alternate face up and face down. Immediatly the deck is spread to show all cards facing the same way. The deck is ordinary."

Can we tell that is a Triumph in the Hands ?
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Postby TOBIAS » 02/19/05 12:01 PM

Thank you guys all of this is great help. I hope to learn where all of this comes from.

Thanks for the :help:
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Postby Guest » 02/20/05 07:01 AM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
8 : If you are speaking of the Pop Out Move, the first description I know is in The Gen, Vol 20, N3, July 1964 but it's attributed to Piet Forton. I know there is a contestation with Eddy Taytelbaum but I don't know who is right.
The very first Hindu-Pop-out move was 'invented' by Eddy Taytelbaum.
I can positively say so, because Piet Forton himself told me way back in around 1959, that Eddy showed him his version without explaining it and Piet therefrom worked on and made up his own solution.
Both solutions/handlings are entirely different!

Also, apart from the very first trials way back, Piet Forton did alter his handling from the Hindu-pop out to an entirely different grip of the cards as well as the rest of his handling differs.

In Eddy's version, the cards (all the cards) where face-down, incl. the f.ex. Aces, whilst Piet already had the Aces face-up -or did use doublefacers- in order to make them pop out.
So Piet inspiration for the move came from Eddy Taytelbaum and goes way back to the 1950's.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/20/05 07:53 AM

Therefore there is no steal, just a stimulation.

Do you know when and where Eddy described his method, please ?
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Postby Guest » 02/20/05 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
Therefore there is no steal, just a stimulation.

Do you know when and where Eddy described his method, please ?
I'm not sure it is described anywhere, but might have been in the dutch periodical *TRIKS*.

In any case, Eddy tried to contact Tobias but his mail got bounced.
I've forwarded Eddy's email adress to Tobias hotmail-addy, as the one on the forum is the one that got bounced..
Maybe Eddy pops in here and let us know, where his Pop-out move is described, if it is anywhere..
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Postby Guest » 02/20/05 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:

11 : For the word TRIUMPH, see Stars of Magic, Series 2, N1, 1946, Dai Vernon. Before everybody said TOPSY TORVY shuffle.
:confused:

I always thought the TOPSY TORVEY shuffle, is the same as the SLOP SHUFFLE and as we know, this so is an entirely diff. handling then TRIUMPH.

I might though be mistaken re the TOPSY TORVEY shuffle is equal to the SLOP SHUFFLE..

Those in the know, please let me know.. :) (pchosse?)
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/20/05 08:58 AM

In fact TOPSY-TURVY (sorry for my first spelling) is a generic term to make a difference between before and after TRIUMPH because when you shuffle cards face-up, face-down, they always finish topsy-turvy.

As you know, the approach of the Slop Shuffle is very different with the shuffle used in Triumph
by Vernon or Marlo, and now when you speak about Triumph, everybody think about a Tabled Shuffle, even if solutions given by Jordan, Lorraine or Hugard (See Royal Road to Card Magic)work.

I hope I haven't confused you
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Postby Matthew Field » 02/20/05 09:57 AM

I'm thinking of adopting Cameron Roat.

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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/20/05 10:15 AM

I bet you to do it.
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Postby Temperance » 02/20/05 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Cameron Roat:
7. Wesley James was the first to devise a routine where signatures from two cards join on opposite sides of a single card.
Are you sure it wasn't 'Joint Signature' by J.G. Thomson, Jr. ref: The Pallbearers Review, October MCMLXX, page 365 ?

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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/20/05 11:48 AM

Ah ! Ah !
It becomes interesting.

Mr. Field, What is your choice now ?
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Postby TOBIAS » 02/20/05 10:43 PM

Not to break the mood, but did you guys forget about me?

LOL!

This is all helping me a great deal. Also I got both of Eddie's e-mails. WOW!!! What a great present! I am very happy about your guys help. I want to make sure that ever one knows I am trying to make the effort to do my home work by crediting.
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 02/21/05 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Euan:
Originally posted by Cameron Roat:
7. Wesley James was the first to devise a routine where signatures from two cards join on opposite sides of a single card.
Are you sure it wasn't 'Joint Signature' by J.H. Thomson, Jr. ref: The Pallbearers Review, October MCMLXX, page 365 ?
I'm not familiar with the effect you mention, but "Forgery" was created in 1965, which would place it before the publication of J.G. Thompson's effect.

-Jim
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Postby Temperance » 02/21/05 10:21 AM

I stand corrected. Could you tell me where 'forgery' was published in 1965 please?

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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/21/05 10:34 AM

Forgery by Wesley James is in his book Enchantments, published in 2004.

Perhaps, you want to say that Wesley created this trick in 1965 ?
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 02/21/05 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Euan:
I stand corrected. Could you tell me where 'forgery' was published in 1965 please?

Euan
Forgery itself wasn't published until 1989, in Wes's lecture notes, "Stop Fooling Us!" The effect, however, was known to folks in the NY magic scene. It was shown to Vernon around 1968, and the first effect published that credited Wes with the plot was Peter Samelson's "New York Transpo" (published in 1984 in "Theatrical Close-up"). Remember that, at the time, Wes was still working professionally and preferred not to have his working material spread among the magic community -- especially something like Forgery, which he would use as a finale to his close-up performances.

-Jim
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 02/21/05 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
Perhaps, you want to say that Wesley created this trick in 1965 ?
That is what I said. :)

-Jim
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Postby Temperance » 02/21/05 10:49 AM

I love the smell of backdating in the morning. :rolleyes:

Actually the signature transfer credit lies with me. I came up with the idea in 12BC and I showed it to Mary Magdalen and her lovely sisters.

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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/21/05 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Euan:
I love the smell of backdating in the morning. :rolleyes:

Euan
Morning ? Scotland is so far away from France ?
Actually, at Paris, it's seven P.M.
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 02/21/05 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Euan:
I love the smell of backdating in the morning. :rolleyes:
Wes is extremely meticulous about crediting -- he is more than willing to give credit to those who preceeded him. I have no reason at all to doubt his claim about Forgery.

-Jim
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 02/21/05 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Jim Maloney:
Originally posted by Euan:
[b] I love the smell of backdating in the morning. :rolleyes:
Wes is extremely meticulous about crediting -- he is more than willing to give credit to those who preceeded him. I have no reason at all to doubt his claim about Forgery.

-Jim [/b]
Does Enchantments have a detailed discussion of the origins of this trick? Perhaps a tiny quote might help here.
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/21/05 11:05 AM

Jim

"By a Stroke of good fortune" (Is this expression good ?) I wanted to know the date for New York Transpo by Peter Samelson.
Thank you very much. (It's not a joke)
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 02/21/05 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
Jim

"By a Stroke of good fortune" (Is this expression good ?) I wanted to know the date for New York Transpo by Peter Samelson.
Thank you very much. (It's not a joke)
"New York Transpo" appeared in Peter's book, "Theatrical Close-Up", which was released in 1984.

Jon -- he doesn't go into the history much in "Enchantments" or "Stop Fooling Us". "Enchantments" does contain handling tips from Phil Goldstein/Danny Tong from 1974 as well as tips from Derek Dingle and Frank Garcia that are dated to 1972, so that may help a bit.

I will, however, give a quote from the Introduction of "Enchantments", in regards to crediting:

I believe that credit should be given where credit is due, and I have endeavored to do so as best I can. ... If I have offended anyone, it is not because I intend to offend but because the truth is the truth; I report it as I know it. Someone (I wish I knew who) once said, "There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth." I report my side. If anyone wishes to discuss these matters with me, to add information to my store and by doing so attempt to alter my perception, I am willing to listen. I will not take sides and I will not argue.

-Jim
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Postby Philippe Billot » 05/14/05 03:36 AM

Working on the Geni Open Index Project, I find this trick by Glenn G. Gravatt, entitled The Jumping Signature, from Genii, Vol 18, N1, Sept 1953, page 13.

Effect : You hand a person your business card. He writes his signature on the back of this card and holds it between his hands. You hold a playing card between your hand. You tell him you will try to lift his signature so it will change places with your card. When he parts his hands, he finds on the back of the business card, in place of his signature, a replica of the playing card you held. On turning your playing card over, the face of it is seen to be blank, and written across the man's signature in his own original handwriting.
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