Copyright

Post topics about the business side of magic.

Postby Guest » 09/19/06 04:45 AM

Hi I'm Lennart and I'm from Holland,

I was just wondering, what are the possibilities for getting a copyright or so on a trick, sleight, method, gimmick, idea etc.
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Postby Guest » 09/19/06 05:25 AM

Originally posted by Lennart Konst:
Hi I'm Lennart and I'm from Holland,

I was just wondering, what are the possibilities for getting a copyright or so on a trick, sleight, method, gimmick, idea etc.
Prose may be protected by copyright. Also artwork. But not, by original construction, ideas or principles.

Copyright exists to permit assignment of rights to sell copies of a work.
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Postby Guest » 09/19/06 06:16 AM

and gimmicks?

can you copyright that so no one can produce the same gimmick, even no variation of it or something.

Like pen through dollar. There are several versions out there but if the original creator copyrighted it, are the other versions allowed on the market?

So ideas or methods cannot be copyrighted, but gimmicks do? or a patent or something? How does that work exactly.

I'm from the Netherlands so excuse me for my English.
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Postby Guest » 09/19/06 10:11 PM

To protect a specific implementation of an idea, you need a patent. Copyrights are pretty easy to obtain but getting a patent can be quite expensive and time consuming. There have been many tricks that have been patented but vast majority are not.
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Postby Guest » 09/21/06 08:00 AM

Lennart,

Even patent protection is only as good as the lawyer you are willing to hire to prosecute those who violate it.

Magic is a small business and a small community. The best bet is to be first with something and sell them as fast as you can because no matter what you do, someone will copy it and someone will sell it.

Zig Zag and Origami are good examples for large scale and Matrix should be a sufficient example for close-up.

Frank Tougas
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Postby Guest » 09/21/06 10:40 AM

Lennart,

Instead of worrying about patents, copyright and so on, why not ask yourself if what you have is worth publishing in the first place?
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Postby Guest » 09/21/06 10:58 AM

Notably, the Copper/Silver/Brass coin gaff was patented. Anyone know how much the owner of that patent received from the people who make custom gaffed coins, or from Johnson's Products, or Sterling or Sasco?

A patent is only worth having if you have the time and money to defend it.
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Postby Guest » 09/21/06 12:26 PM

When I was doing research for my latest book, The Mechanics of Marvels, I was amazed at how many common and familiar tricks were patented. Grant's money maker, Merv Taylor's vanishing birdcage, Brema's breakaway fan and card box, P&L vanishing wand and reel, D'Lite, and the list goes on and on.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/21/06 01:24 PM

Bill... who owns the patent on C/S/B ???
Stay tooned.
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Postby Guest » 09/21/06 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Bill... who owns the patent on C/S/B ???
From the U.S. Patent Office Database:

Inventors: Guitar; Pressley H. (79 Abilene, TX)
Appl. No.: 05/311,365
Filed: December 1, 1972
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Postby Guest » 09/22/06 01:39 AM

The patent information is as follows:
Patent number 3,822,879
Issued July 9, 1974

This patent has expired.
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Postby Guest » 09/22/06 11:27 PM

Sorry Pete, I've been busy and missed your question.

You can view the patent here . As Bill noted, it has since expired. I wonder if he received any payment before it expired?
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Postby Guest » 09/23/06 05:54 PM

I know that Pressley got some royalties from Johnson, who, as far as I know, was the only manufacturer other than Pressley before the patent expired.

The way he got paid was really interesting. According to my sources, who are close to him, he went up to them at a convention and asked, "Where are my royalties?"

"What royalties?"

"For my C/S/B trick. You copied my coins."

"No, we didn't. That's just a version of the old 2 copper and 1 silver."

"No, you copied my coins, and I can prove it."

He took his set out of his pocket, and he laid it next to theirs. Then he said, "See, these are identical. And that 'Chinese character there' is a stylized P. This one is a stylized G. Those are my initials. Pay up."

They did.

Or so the tale is told around the campfires at magic conventions in Texas.
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Postby Guest » 09/27/06 04:03 PM

Is it only possible to patent a sort of apparatus or a machinery or could you also patent just an impromptu trick or a gimmick you can make at home. Where lies the border.

So what sort of stuff could all be patented and what does it cost and how does dat work and everything..
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Postby Guest » 10/10/07 09:32 AM

Copyrights are very different from patents. We actually avoid patents on many things to avoid publishing how something really works. Yes, there is something wrong with the system.


Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
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Postby Guest » 10/11/07 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Lennart Konst:
Is it only possible to patent a sort of apparatus or a machinery or could you also patent just an impromptu trick or a gimmick you can make at home. Where lies the border.

So what sort of stuff could all be patented and what does it cost and how does dat work and everything..
If you want to know ALL about patents, you need to sign up for a course at law school.

Here is a rough idea of how this works, though. If it's a graphic design, a photograph, a grouping of words (book, magazine, story, song lyrics), a grouping of sounds (music), or a notatable set of movements (a dance), it can be copyrighted.

If it is a mechanical device, a system or a physical object of a non-artistic nature, it can be patented. Drugs can be patented as can seeds that have been genetically manipulated.

If it is a grouping of designs or words that represent a business or object, this can be trademarked.

The cost varies with the country and/or what kind of protection you are trying to obtain.

In some countries, a patent needs to have some kind of new scientific discovery behind it. That's not the case in the US. It doesn't really matter where you can make it. If it's original, you can (hypothetically) get it patented.

Patents are not cheap, they have certain restrictions. You must be able to provide a working model, and it must be practical.

You cannot copyright or patent an idea or a concept. You can only copyright or patent manifestations of ideas or concepts.
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Postby 000 » 05/20/08 01:48 PM

Any idea of where one could find a list of patented effects?
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Postby Dave V » 05/21/08 12:11 PM

That's a pretty tall order as the list is HUGE. Here, look for yourself: www.uspto.gov
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Postby mai-ling » 05/23/08 08:35 PM

This link:
http://www.copyright.gov/resces.html

Will also guide you where you might also want to go also.

Especially if you need to learn about Intellectual Property
outside the US.
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Postby 000 » 05/26/08 06:49 AM

I tried, but as technophobe no luck
If someone could post a link.....would be great.
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Postby Bob Cunningham » 05/26/08 07:51 AM

000 wrote:I tried, but as technophobe no luck
If someone could post a link.....would be great.


There is no simple way that I know of.

But if you go to this link and try terms like: magic, magician, trick, illusion, etc., you should have some luck.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
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Postby 000 » 05/30/08 01:29 AM

If anyone ever comes across a compiled list let us know.

Its interesting stuff...I read Joe Karson patented the Zombie in 1940....did that prevent the vultures from ripping him of?
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Postby Bill Palmer » 05/31/08 10:44 PM

000 wrote:If anyone ever comes across a compiled list let us know.

Its interesting stuff...I read Joe Karson patented the Zombie in 1940....did that prevent the vultures from ripping him of?


The "vulture" that ripped Joe Karson off more than anyone was Joe Karson, himself. He had a habit of "licensing" production of the Zombie to everyone who offered him a few bucks. So you see Zombies made by Abbott's, Tannen's and lots of other people.

Once his patent expired, anyone who wanted to was free to make it.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 05/31/08 11:02 PM

000 wrote:I read Joe Karson patented the Zombie in 1940...

Here's a link to the patent, dated October 4, 1946:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=pepWAA ... 40#PPP2,M1

I find the google patent search engine easier to use than the one government one:
www.google.com/patents
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Postby 000 » 06/01/08 04:23 AM

Interesting info I didnt know Bill. And thanks for the link Richard. Patents lapse after 20 yrs I understand...are they then renewable?
Im also interested in hearing which performers have enforced their patents over the years.
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Postby condemagnum » 06/03/08 02:30 PM

Even if you decide NOT to patent your gimmick, you should BRAND IT with your name, like Finn Jon's loops, Bob Kine's copenetro, etc

It can still be pirated, but usually the community frowns on copycats.
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Postby 000 » 06/21/08 03:43 PM

Anonymous, When is your books Mechanics of Marvel coming out/if not already?

000
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Postby Richard Hatch » 06/21/08 03:53 PM

000 wrote:Anonymous, When is your books Mechanics of Marvel coming out/if not already?

000

Chuck Romano's book, THE MECHANICS OF MARVELS was published in a limited edition of 250 copies in 2006, with a foreword by Jim Steinmeyer. Priced at $115 each, it quickly sold out. We have a pristine copy (#217) that we are likely to offer on eBay soon.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 06/27/08 07:35 PM

A lot of these questions are answered on the USPTO web site. WWW.USPTO.GOV .

Am I the only one here who thinks that asking a roomful of magicians to discuss IP law is about as sensible as asking a roomful of magicians to discuss brain surgery?
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Postby Matt R » 08/06/08 10:26 AM

MagicGizmo has a great categorized list of magic patents and you never need to go to the USPTO web site, see this thread:

http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... Post171611

Also there is an article on Magic Patents that answers some of the earlier questions on protecting magic:

http://magicgizmo.com/home/index.php?op ... &Itemid=63
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Postby 000 » 08/08/08 04:54 AM

Im sure its a great list.....pity it has to be paid for.
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Postby Matt R » 08/09/08 10:29 AM

The Magicgizmo site is completely free although you do need to register (which is free). The upgrade (it doesn't cost anything) that is needed is designed to weed out the non-magicians since it does then give one access to magic secrets in various areas of the site.
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Postby 000 » 08/11/08 02:14 AM

Appreciated,and thank you.
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