Copyright

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Guest

Copyright

Postby Guest » September 19th, 2006, 4:45 am

Hi I'm Lennart and I'm from Holland,

I was just wondering, what are the possibilities for getting a copyright or so on a trick, sleight, method, gimmick, idea etc.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 19th, 2006, 5:25 am

Originally posted by Lennart Konst:
Hi I'm Lennart and I'm from Holland,

I was just wondering, what are the possibilities for getting a copyright or so on a trick, sleight, method, gimmick, idea etc.
Prose may be protected by copyright. Also artwork. But not, by original construction, ideas or principles.

Copyright exists to permit assignment of rights to sell copies of a work.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 19th, 2006, 6:16 am

and gimmicks?

can you copyright that so no one can produce the same gimmick, even no variation of it or something.

Like pen through dollar. There are several versions out there but if the original creator copyrighted it, are the other versions allowed on the market?

So ideas or methods cannot be copyrighted, but gimmicks do? or a patent or something? How does that work exactly.

I'm from the Netherlands so excuse me for my English.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 19th, 2006, 10:11 pm

To protect a specific implementation of an idea, you need a patent. Copyrights are pretty easy to obtain but getting a patent can be quite expensive and time consuming. There have been many tricks that have been patented but vast majority are not.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 21st, 2006, 8:00 am

Lennart,

Even patent protection is only as good as the lawyer you are willing to hire to prosecute those who violate it.

Magic is a small business and a small community. The best bet is to be first with something and sell them as fast as you can because no matter what you do, someone will copy it and someone will sell it.

Zig Zag and Origami are good examples for large scale and Matrix should be a sufficient example for close-up.

Frank Tougas

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 21st, 2006, 10:40 am

Lennart,

Instead of worrying about patents, copyright and so on, why not ask yourself if what you have is worth publishing in the first place?

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 21st, 2006, 10:58 am

Notably, the Copper/Silver/Brass coin gaff was patented. Anyone know how much the owner of that patent received from the people who make custom gaffed coins, or from Johnson's Products, or Sterling or Sasco?

A patent is only worth having if you have the time and money to defend it.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 21st, 2006, 12:26 pm

When I was doing research for my latest book, The Mechanics of Marvels, I was amazed at how many common and familiar tricks were patented. Grant's money maker, Merv Taylor's vanishing birdcage, Brema's breakaway fan and card box, P&L vanishing wand and reel, D'Lite, and the list goes on and on.

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Pete Biro
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Re: Copyright

Postby Pete Biro » September 21st, 2006, 1:24 pm

Bill... who owns the patent on C/S/B ???
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 21st, 2006, 2:53 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Bill... who owns the patent on C/S/B ???
From the U.S. Patent Office Database:

Inventors: Guitar; Pressley H. (79 Abilene, TX)
Appl. No.: 05/311,365
Filed: December 1, 1972

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 22nd, 2006, 1:39 am

The patent information is as follows:
Patent number 3,822,879
Issued July 9, 1974

This patent has expired.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 22nd, 2006, 11:27 pm

Sorry Pete, I've been busy and missed your question.

You can view the patent here . As Bill noted, it has since expired. I wonder if he received any payment before it expired?

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 23rd, 2006, 5:54 pm

I know that Pressley got some royalties from Johnson, who, as far as I know, was the only manufacturer other than Pressley before the patent expired.

The way he got paid was really interesting. According to my sources, who are close to him, he went up to them at a convention and asked, "Where are my royalties?"

"What royalties?"

"For my C/S/B trick. You copied my coins."

"No, we didn't. That's just a version of the old 2 copper and 1 silver."

"No, you copied my coins, and I can prove it."

He took his set out of his pocket, and he laid it next to theirs. Then he said, "See, these are identical. And that 'Chinese character there' is a stylized P. This one is a stylized G. Those are my initials. Pay up."

They did.

Or so the tale is told around the campfires at magic conventions in Texas.

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » September 27th, 2006, 4:03 pm

Is it only possible to patent a sort of apparatus or a machinery or could you also patent just an impromptu trick or a gimmick you can make at home. Where lies the border.

So what sort of stuff could all be patented and what does it cost and how does dat work and everything..

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » October 10th, 2007, 9:32 am

Copyrights are very different from patents. We actually avoid patents on many things to avoid publishing how something really works. Yes, there is something wrong with the system.


Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

Guest

Re: Copyright

Postby Guest » October 11th, 2007, 2:14 am

Originally posted by Lennart Konst:
Is it only possible to patent a sort of apparatus or a machinery or could you also patent just an impromptu trick or a gimmick you can make at home. Where lies the border.

So what sort of stuff could all be patented and what does it cost and how does dat work and everything..
If you want to know ALL about patents, you need to sign up for a course at law school.

Here is a rough idea of how this works, though. If it's a graphic design, a photograph, a grouping of words (book, magazine, story, song lyrics), a grouping of sounds (music), or a notatable set of movements (a dance), it can be copyrighted.

If it is a mechanical device, a system or a physical object of a non-artistic nature, it can be patented. Drugs can be patented as can seeds that have been genetically manipulated.

If it is a grouping of designs or words that represent a business or object, this can be trademarked.

The cost varies with the country and/or what kind of protection you are trying to obtain.

In some countries, a patent needs to have some kind of new scientific discovery behind it. That's not the case in the US. It doesn't really matter where you can make it. If it's original, you can (hypothetically) get it patented.

Patents are not cheap, they have certain restrictions. You must be able to provide a working model, and it must be practical.

You cannot copyright or patent an idea or a concept. You can only copyright or patent manifestations of ideas or concepts.

000
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Re: Copyright

Postby 000 » May 20th, 2008, 1:48 pm

Any idea of where one could find a list of patented effects?

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Dave V
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Re: Copyright

Postby Dave V » May 21st, 2008, 12:11 pm

That's a pretty tall order as the list is HUGE. Here, look for yourself: www.uspto.gov
"I still play with a full deck, I just shuffle slower"

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mai-ling
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Re: Copyright

Postby mai-ling » May 23rd, 2008, 8:35 pm

This link:
http://www.copyright.gov/resces.html

Will also guide you where you might also want to go also.

Especially if you need to learn about Intellectual Property
outside the US.
you will remember my name
http://www.mai-ling.net
world's youngest illusionista


000
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Re: Copyright

Postby 000 » May 26th, 2008, 6:49 am

I tried, but as technophobe no luck
If someone could post a link.....would be great.

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Bob Cunningham
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Re: Copyright

Postby Bob Cunningham » May 26th, 2008, 7:51 am

000 wrote:I tried, but as technophobe no luck
If someone could post a link.....would be great.


There is no simple way that I know of.

But if you go to this link and try terms like: magic, magician, trick, illusion, etc., you should have some luck.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html

000
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Re: Copyright

Postby 000 » May 30th, 2008, 1:29 am

If anyone ever comes across a compiled list let us know.

Its interesting stuff...I read Joe Karson patented the Zombie in 1940....did that prevent the vultures from ripping him of?

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Re: Copyright

Postby Bill Palmer » May 31st, 2008, 10:44 pm

000 wrote:If anyone ever comes across a compiled list let us know.

Its interesting stuff...I read Joe Karson patented the Zombie in 1940....did that prevent the vultures from ripping him of?


The "vulture" that ripped Joe Karson off more than anyone was Joe Karson, himself. He had a habit of "licensing" production of the Zombie to everyone who offered him a few bucks. So you see Zombies made by Abbott's, Tannen's and lots of other people.

Once his patent expired, anyone who wanted to was free to make it.
Bill Palmer, MIMC

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Re: Copyright

Postby Richard Hatch » May 31st, 2008, 11:02 pm

000 wrote:I read Joe Karson patented the Zombie in 1940...

Here's a link to the patent, dated October 4, 1946:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=pepWAA ... 40#PPP2,M1

I find the google patent search engine easier to use than the one government one:
www.google.com/patents

000
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Re: Copyright

Postby 000 » June 1st, 2008, 4:23 am

Interesting info I didnt know Bill. And thanks for the link Richard. Patents lapse after 20 yrs I understand...are they then renewable?
Im also interested in hearing which performers have enforced their patents over the years.

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Re: Copyright

Postby condemagnum » June 3rd, 2008, 2:30 pm

Even if you decide NOT to patent your gimmick, you should BRAND IT with your name, like Finn Jon's loops, Bob Kine's copenetro, etc

It can still be pirated, but usually the community frowns on copycats.
Conde Magnum
Mexico City

000
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Re: Copyright

Postby 000 » June 21st, 2008, 3:43 pm

Anonymous, When is your books Mechanics of Marvel coming out/if not already?

000

Richard Hatch
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Re: Copyright

Postby Richard Hatch » June 21st, 2008, 3:53 pm

000 wrote:Anonymous, When is your books Mechanics of Marvel coming out/if not already?

000

Chuck Romano's book, THE MECHANICS OF MARVELS was published in a limited edition of 250 copies in 2006, with a foreword by Jim Steinmeyer. Priced at $115 each, it quickly sold out. We have a pristine copy (#217) that we are likely to offer on eBay soon.

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Re: Copyright

Postby Bill Palmer » June 27th, 2008, 7:35 pm

A lot of these questions are answered on the USPTO web site. WWW.USPTO.GOV .

Am I the only one here who thinks that asking a roomful of magicians to discuss IP law is about as sensible as asking a roomful of magicians to discuss brain surgery?
Bill Palmer, MIMC

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Re: Copyright

Postby Matt R » August 6th, 2008, 10:26 am

MagicGizmo has a great categorized list of magic patents and you never need to go to the USPTO web site, see this thread:

http://www.geniimagazine.com/forums/ubb ... Post171611

Also there is an article on Magic Patents that answers some of the earlier questions on protecting magic:

http://magicgizmo.com/home/index.php?op ... &Itemid=63

000
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Re: Copyright

Postby 000 » August 8th, 2008, 4:54 am

Im sure its a great list.....pity it has to be paid for.

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Re: Copyright

Postby Matt R » August 9th, 2008, 10:29 am

The Magicgizmo site is completely free although you do need to register (which is free). The upgrade (it doesn't cost anything) that is needed is designed to weed out the non-magicians since it does then give one access to magic secrets in various areas of the site.

000
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Re: Copyright

Postby 000 » August 11th, 2008, 2:14 am

Appreciated,and thank you.


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