Derren Brown & NLP

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Postby Guest » 05/29/03 01:59 AM

I scanned a trick that Derren Brown has written up using NLP to figure out whether a person is thinking of a memory that's audio or visual, or whether they're visualizing something that never happened. In that multiple-choice way, he says, you can read a person's mind.

That seems fascinating, but I wonder if it works in the real world. Has anybody experimented with this stuff? Is it just a pipe dream? Are the tricks from Brown's book strong? I was quite put off by the egotistical rants that were quoted in the reviews....
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Postby AMCabral » 05/29/03 06:53 AM

Hi.

I'll start off with the caveat that I'm not a mentalist; I'm a cardman.

Now that you've stopped reading this post, I would strongly suggest that you explore Derrin Brown's writings and suggestions. The psychological techniques are very powerful; I myself have had some frightening success with his "Invisible Deal" techniques and similar ideas.
It's not easy. This stuff is hardcore "you need to get a feel/read for it, trial and error" work. There are books on NLP available in any good bookstore if you want to get a feel for the type of stuff he's applying to magic. I believe Docc Hilford and Kenton Knepper explore similar territories.
As for the "egoistical rants", he's got some strong points worth listening to. He's made some hard decisions about improving his magic. Don't get mad because he questions the sort of thing that, as Burger would say, "all the other monkeys are doing." Hey, I'm a cardman, and Derrin _gave up_ his card magic because it doesn't achieve what he wants...and his stuff's killer!

Just a thought,
Tony
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Postby Guest » 05/29/03 02:16 PM

Originally posted by AntonioMCabral:
As for the "egoistical rants", he's got some strong points worth listening to. He's made some hard decisions about improving his magic. Don't get mad because he questions the sort of thing that, as Burger would say, "all the other monkeys are doing." Hey
That's not what I'm referring to as "egotistical rants." I'm referring to the scatalogical venom that he spits out on his opening page. Not that a venomous juvenile can't be a genius; it's just that it's less likely.

I'll have to buy the book rather than just standing up and scanning it in Hollywood Magic.
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Postby Stefan Sprenger » 05/30/03 01:21 AM

Hi there,

i just did a show for a few people and all of them were Psychologiest.
And since it was only close-up we also did a lot of talking and i asked them about NLP!

They said esspeacially that eyemovment thing is realy not relayable, supposedly someone did a study with about 10.000 People and the only thing that did work for a certain percentage is that people do look away when they are thinking about a feeling! But otherwise they could not find a real pattern!

But NLP people will tell you it works like a charm!?? I still do have my doubts!

Cheers,

Stefan
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Postby Guest » 05/30/03 07:58 AM

Originally posted by Stefan Sprenger:
Hi there,

i just did a show for a few people and all of them were Psychologiest.
And since it was only close-up we also did a lot of talking and i asked them about NLP!

They said esspeacially that eyemovment thing is realy not relayable, supposedly someone did a study with about 10.000 People and the only thing that did work for a certain percentage is that people do look away when they are thinking about a feeling! But otherwise they could not find a real pattern!

But NLP people will tell you it works like a charm!?? I still do have my doubts!

Cheers,

Stefan
Stephan,

The study you mention might have been Dr. J. Adrian Williams', Ed.D (Counselling psychology) doctoral dissertation. He did a study similar to the one you describe and showed that the eye tracking material from Bandler and Grinder's original work was seriously flawed.

On a more positive note, Dr. Williams noted that their descriptions of what some of the therapeutic magicians (people who can get radical and lasting positive changes from a patient in one or two sessions) was ground-breaking work.

Some of the follow up work by people like Steven Lankton, gives much more detail on this process.

Hope this helps!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
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Postby AMCabral » 05/30/03 08:43 AM

Originally posted by David Groves:
That's not what I'm referring to as "egotistical rants." I'm referring to the scatalogical venom that he spits out on his opening page.
Forgive me; are we taking about the book "Pure Effect"? If so, I don't think I know the scatalogical venom to which you refer. Could you be more specific?
-Tony
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Postby Guest » 05/30/03 09:19 AM

In the context of reading people's expressions, I wanted to share the work of Paul Ekman, a psychologist who along with W.V. Friesen "developed the Facial Action Coding System in the 1970s by determining how the contraction of each facial muscle (singly and in combination with other muscles) changes the appearance of the face.

"They examined videotapes of facial behavior to identify the specific changes that occurred with muscular contractions and how best to differentiate one from another. They associated the appearance changes with the action of muscles that produced them by studying anatomy, reproducing the appearances, and palpating their faces. Their goal was to create a reliable means for skilled human scorers to determine the category or categories in which to fit each facial behavior." (These quotes are from the website for ordering the new version of this book, FACS .) Additionally, the Ekman site contains all manner of articles, photos, publications, and research tools.

Ekman has a new book out, called Emotions Revealed: Recognizing Faces And Feelings To Improve Communication And Emotional Life. Ekman describes how facial expressions work, purporting to differentiate between a fake and a real smile by mapping the muscle movements of both. He is a fascinating interview, and a recent interview appears on Terri Gross's Fresh Air .

It seems the information researched by Ekman, et. al. should be of interest and use to many magicians and mentalists.

--Randy Campbell
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Postby Guest » 05/30/03 01:09 PM

Antonio: I must be mistaken about the location of the vitriolic quote, but it was widely quoted in the reviews, including in one by Mr. Swiss in GENII.

Originally posted by Randy Campbell:
In the context of reading people's expressions, I wanted to share the work of Paul Ekman, a psychologist....
Yes, I've read Dr. Ekman's previous book, TELLING LIES, and it was illuminating.

Do you know where to get a copy of his FACS system? It's a map of hundreds of facial expressions. I find it useful in one of my tricks, and suspect it may be useful in others, not in direct mindreading, but in auxiliary and unexpected ways.

Along with NLP, I suspect these two tools might be useful for magicians.
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Postby IanB » 06/02/03 07:13 AM

David,

The piece of scatalogical vitriol you refer to is reserved for the Final Thoughts section - long after Mr Brown has seduced you into an appreciation of his unusual literary style. And if that has failed, his nice assistants, with outdated clipboards in hand, will beat into you a definition of the phrase "tongue ever so slightly in cheek"

Rgds,

Ian
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Postby Guest » 06/11/03 03:08 AM

Originally posted by Ian Brodie:
The piece of scatalogical vitriol you refer to is reserved for the Final Thoughts section - long after Mr Brown has seduced you into an appreciation of his unusual literary style.
I am not seduced by bile.
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