Tossed-Out Deck

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Postby Guest » 07/29/04 04:43 PM

Looking for conversation on the various permutations of this particular trick.

I perform TOD often, and find that it's absolutely killer. First of all, it's baffling because you don't touch the deck throughout the routine. Secondly, it plays large, because you choose a couple people deep in the audience, and the stage area begins to encompass everyone.

Thirdly, you can briefly and casually fan the cards and show the deck to be normal (even if it isn't quite). Fourthly, if you perform another card trick first and then execute a deck switch, you can make the normalness of the deck implicit rather than ever having to fan the cards. (This is something I discovered last Sunday evening during a show, performing a rising card and then TOD, and a tactic that I will explore further in future performances.)

And fifthly, :D it feels like real mindreading. It's direct, and although requires some fishing, the fishing can with a little finesse be made to look entirely justifiable.

Is there much of a difference between the various versions of this trick? I can't imagine that the version I use can be improved.

Oh, sometimes I run into spectator management problems. Once, an older lady thought that the ace that she peeked was "a face card," and that threw me off and caused me to fail to identify her card.

Another time, a woman said the name of her card out loud immediately after the trick was over, and even though it was in a cabaret situation, the other woman on the other side of the room said, "That's strange. That was my card, too!"

I perform this in either my magic show or my mindreading show. Because it uses cards, it feels like a magic trick. But strictly speaking, it is mindreading.

I'm often tempted to use another stage card trick, Defining the Difference, by Rick Maue, which is delicious and uncommon, in place of TOD. In a way, DTD seems like another version of TOD. If magicians are in the audience, I might use DTD. However, TOD is a little easier and requires one fewer prop.

[TOD or DTD? Or DOT or STD?] :D ;) :)
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Postby Steve Bryant » 07/29/04 08:40 PM

The strongest version of this I have seen is Harry Anderson's "All for One" in his book WISE GUY. There are strong convincers that make four specs think each thought of a different card. To say much more would give it away, but anyone wanting to perform with the Hoy deck should read this book.
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Postby Frank Starsinic » 07/29/04 09:35 PM

Not the same trick but this reminds me of another... The Princess Card Trick.

The book "The Impostress Princess" has many variations and explores some great great presentations. Perhaps checking out that book will give you some presentation ideas for this somewhat similar effect.

One of my favorites is to have a spectator take a packet of cards and without looking, place one card in his pocket. Nobody knows what it is, including the spectator.

After revealing the other cards from all the other spectators, the performer says something like...

"You have one card in your pocket sir?"
"Do you know what it is?"
"Have you ever looked at it?"
"Sir, stand up, reach into your pocket, and show all of us the 8 of Clubs"

He does!
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Postby Glenn Farrington » 07/29/04 09:58 PM

Check out David Ben's take on this in his new book "Tricks",
Comedy's Easy...Dying Sucks.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 07/29/04 10:21 PM

Wayne Dobson in DOBSON'S CHOICE: THE SEQUEL has a very commercial presentation. He noticed that in the standard version (naming three cards and asking those spectators who heard their card named to sit down), the response was polite but muted. Certainly not what he wanted for having just performed the impossible feat of simultaneously reading three strangers' minds! He reframed the presentation to address each spectator in turn, allowing the tension and response to build so that when the final spectator sits down, he is virtually guaranteed an ovation. Very savy showmanship and worth a closer look (there are 12 other commercial tricks in the booklet too, by the way. End of commercial!).
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Postby Guest » 07/29/04 11:27 PM

There's a Version in The Ron Wilson book.
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Postby Jeff Haas » 07/30/04 12:18 AM

Whit Haydn's use of it in his "Killer Epic" routine is excellent.
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Postby Ray Eden » 07/30/04 01:18 AM

David,

Ted Lesley has a version on his DVD series that eliminates the 'fishing' that you mentioned. He simply has the people who select cards stand, then calls out the name of the cards and the spectators are sitted as they hear their card called out.

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Postby Guest » 07/30/04 11:06 AM

Jack Dean's "Bagatelle" uses Bagagge Tags with various Countries and Cities printed on them instead of a deck of cards but has the same modus operandus.

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Postby Bill McFadden » 07/30/04 12:52 PM

No discussion of this wonderful routine would be complete without consideration of Max Maven's "Tossed-Out Tech." Curiously, this has not been committed to print, but can be found on Vol. 3 of "Max Maven's Video Mind."
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Postby Steve Bryant » 07/30/04 02:03 PM

Regrettably, as satisfying a scam as the tossed out deck is, it's ripe for exposure as soon as the performance is over. This is especially true at the Magic Castle, where the same group of people stands in line for the next show, and they talk to each other. Intelligent laymen can also see through it even during the performance (this has also happened when I've had friends visiting the Castle) unless some additional cleverness is in use, such as the Anderson method mentioned above, and I hope in some of the other methods cited.
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Postby Guest » 07/30/04 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Bill McFadden:
No discussion of this wonderful routine would be complete without consideration of Max Maven's "Tossed-Out Tech." Curiously, this has not been committed to print, but can be found on Vol. 3 of "Max Maven's Video Mind."
I believe TOT has at least one advantage over the original TOD, that is most of the time participants actually DO select different cards. And if it is done properly, it can fool those who know the Hoy method.
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Postby Guest » 07/31/04 08:57 AM

I use Maven's "Tossed-Out Tech," and nobody ever figures it out. Well, unless there's a glitch, as I mentioned in my original post, which are rare.

I can see how the original Hoy method, although clever, could be figured out by the most intelligent 3% of the audience--engineers, geniuses, and other jerkoffs of that sort :D . Are any of the abovementioned routines variations on Hoy's routine, or on Maven's?
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Postby Steve Bryant » 07/31/04 03:23 PM

The original Hoy routine uses a one-way force deck with a different card on the face. There is no fishing. There are some excellent touches in the setup, hence the book was called The Bold and SUBTLE Miracles of Dr. Faust. The Harry Anderson routine mentioned above uses the original Hoy deck. I am not familiar with the other routines mentioned.
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Postby Guest » 08/01/04 07:41 PM

Here's how I reframed mine:

1. Three-way deck, stacked as follows: Indif/A/B/C/A/B/C/etc., with another Indif. on the bottom.
2. Toss out deck as usual, three cards selected by peeking as the deck is tossed from random spec to random spec.
3. Have trouble divining any cards. Ask three specs to concentrate on the visual look of their cards, not the identity of the cards. Tell each spec to share the name of his card with someone near him to increase combined brain power.
4. Hesitantly name the three cards. Ask spectators to raise their hands if their card was named.
5. When all three hands come up, smile broadly, and ask the audience to thank those who assisted the magician by catching the deck and peeking at a card. Applause!

This played very, very well in several performances in front of audiences of 350 each. I am open to suggestions to strengthen the ending, as I don't do mentalism that much, and I know that I could do something better to cue the applause. However, the trick works well this way, and the single identity problem is minimized. I also have a blue 3-way and a red 3-way so that adjacent performances (such as suggested by a previous poster at the Castle) are different values.

Looking forward to your suggestions to strengthen my ending.

Jon
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Postby Guest » 08/02/04 06:02 AM

I also like Max Maven's two person "Tossed-Out Tech" idea best... I have played with the idea of using four cards a 2C 3H 8S 9D now by asking if it was a high card you can easily change the answer for a nine as being high into it as actually being a low card in that you viewed anything lower than a ten, ace, or face card to be a low card. It's pretty simple you first find out if they are thinking or red or black, say they are thinking RED now you say you are thinking of a low card if they answer yes... you know they are thinking of the 3 of hearts if they answer no you know they are thinking of the 9 of diamonds. You simply ask them to think of their card again... you say... I'm getting a diamond... they answer yes... you'll say this is odd... you say it's not a low card yet, I'm not seeing a face or an ace... and i don't see it as a ten... I'm still getting it as a low card something like an eight on nine in fact I'm certain it is a nine of diamonds. I have performed this many many times and only one time has someone felt from the start on their own that a nine was a low card... and the fact that the nine of diamonds is come up with at all is amazing to the audience who feels you are dealing with a full deck

BTW we also made the decks with 2D 3C 8S 9H and 2C 3D 8H 9S the idea was to have reds on the outside and black cards on the inside or visa versa this was done for memory, but nothing was as easy to remember as CHaSeD

Hope this helps

Ken
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Postby Guest » 08/02/04 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Jon A. Hand:
...Hesitantly name the three cards. Ask spectators to raise their hands if their card was named. When all three hands come up, smile broadly, and ask the audience to thank those who assisted the magician by catching the deck and peeking at a card. Applause!....I am open to suggestions to strengthen the ending, as I don't do mentalism that much, and I know that I could do something better to cue the applause.
Max Maven's work on this works well as an applause cue. Having the spectators raise their hands doesn't work as well as having them stand, and if you're right, they sit down.

Then again, it might even work better if you told them to stand if you got it right. That way, the person standing might naturally start applauding, and the rest of the audience might follow their lead.
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Postby John Pezzullo » 08/03/04 02:10 PM

Sean Taylor, a local professional and owner of Taylor's Magic Shop, teaches an excellent version in his 'East West' lecture.

Sean's version is called 'Triple Tossed' and it's a very well constructed routine that plays strongly.
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Postby JFox » 08/06/04 11:12 AM

I like using a 3-way "Telomatic Deck": Deck can be openly shown to have all different faces and riffle-shuffled Face-Up repeatedly. Yet, the 3 (or more)specs will peek at any one of 3 force cards after the deck is tossed to them. Very clean.
These decks are also available in 1-way and 2-way decks.
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Postby Guest » 08/08/04 03:12 PM

The Rashomon principle as T.A.Waters termed it is one of the most incredible principle in mentalism.
Something that can goes even forther the TOD effect!
Check out the works of Ted Karmilovich and Al Mann among others if you are interested in exploring this principle.
Not only you can use it to create propless effects...you can even use it when performing one on one!
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/08/04 05:21 PM

Does anyone know what year T.A. Waters first dubbed it "The Rashomon Principle"?
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Postby Bob Farmer » 08/08/04 05:28 PM

No earlier than 1950 (the year RASHOMON was released).
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Postby Guest » 08/08/04 05:33 PM

1983 as far as I know.
At least,he first mentioned it in Psychl that was published in 1983.I'm sure Max Maven will know the exact year T.A.Waters came up with that term....
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Postby Guest » 08/09/04 12:15 AM

Is The Rashomon Principle mentioned in MIND, MYTH, AND MAGICK? And where?
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Postby Max Maven » 08/09/04 03:34 PM

Memo to Bob Farmer: The movie may have been released in 1950, but the original Ryunosuke Akutagawa story was published in 1915.

I used the "Rashomon" title for a routine I had in the October 1979 Linking Ring Parade.

Thomas liked the reference, and a year or so later began using it as a succinct way of referencing the ambiguity principle found in such effects as "Everywhere and Nowhere," "Smith's Myth," "The Tossed-Out Deck," etc.
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Postby Vraagaard » 08/11/04 02:23 AM

Is it just me, or is there to much revelation of the actual method in this thread. Even a person from outside would now have no problem figuring this effect out. SO I wonder if it should be deleted. Having said that, here is my version.

I actually do prefer the fishing/pumping part of this effect. I do not like the Ted Lesley approach just naming six cards and all six sits down. Think of it, its totally impossible to mind read 6 cards out of 52, and to play it that easy,, well then you should also be able to read anything I choose to think of. This in my opinion has to be played difficult - by pumping or faking a pump.

This is an impossible effect, so I'm in favour of making it impossible. That means to include the pumping.

Actually I'm working with a setup of 6 cards 2 blacks and 4 reds (2 spades: one high and one low, 3 hearts one low, one middle and one high (King), 1 Diamonds high(Jack)).

Then with 3 persons the possibility of 2 having chosen a RED card will be highest so I would start by saying "The chance of me getting 3 cards right out of 52 is almost impossible, but if we put our minds together I have a felling we can make it. Would you please help me getting started. I'm getting a strong impression of red. Has at least 2 of you picked a red card?). They will answer by raising their hand. "Now please stand up all three of you"

My next pump would be Think high, Think low and reading their faces. Then I should know how many has red/black, and how many has high or low (and then also if someone has neither high or low).

Red Middle card is Hearts
Black low and high is given since there are only two blacks
Red High could be either Diamonds and Hearts

Red high could then give me a miscall if I read their face wrong when I propose the next pump. "I get a feeling its a picture card, meaning it is not an ace. Now please Think of jack, queen or King if you have such card. Disregard if its a heart or a diamond, now think Jack, Queen or King". King would be hearts, Jack would be Diamonds.

Thats my version, but I play it as Maven, Handing out the deck, getting it thrown back but never catching it.
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Postby Guest » 08/11/04 05:29 AM

Not only is the original Hoy method less convincing, but it's also much less interesting for the performer. Personally, I like to keep my mind busy; it's one of the joys of my life.

It sounds like Vraagard's routine is a whole lot of fun. I love to look for the brief and subtle reaction on people's faces when I say:

"It's a high card."

The two choices are:

1. It's an undeniably high card (which elicits an immediate "Yes!") and
2. It's a middle card (which elicits a slight hesitation before they say "Yes"). Reading facial expressions is thrilling, to be sure.

The pumping also allows you to creep up on the selection, and to have true concentration on your face as you decipher their choice rather than having to fake it.

However, do you gain anything by having three spectators stand rather than two? Well, perhaps you'd benefit from the rule of three....
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Postby Vraagaard » 08/11/04 06:26 AM

Originally posted by David Groves:

However, do you gain anything by having three spectators stand rather than two? Well, perhaps you'd benefit from the rule of three....
Yeah, thats a good question. I think I came from the original TOD with 6 people, going through Osterlinds Radar Deck with 4 people, thinking Mavens with 2 people was to little and decided on 3. But it could play with 2, and then you could even eliminate the one high red card, making it easier to get the right reading. Maybe I'll check up on Mavens stack tonight. I don't remember how many cards he uses.

I feel like 3, but I will put it to the test and see if 2 get's the same reactions.
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Postby Guest » 08/19/04 03:51 AM

Originally posted by Vraagaard:
Think of it, its totally impossible to mind read 6 cards out of 52
I thought it was totally impossible to read minds full stop? ;) .

Does anone know of a method where you can have someone up on stage and you can show them the deck, no quick flashing or hurrying through the deck. A method so you can show all the cards different?

I ask this because i have come up with a method (if i can call it that) to do that.

Thanks,
Steve.
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Postby Vraagaard » 08/19/04 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Steve-o:
Originally posted by Vraagaard:
[b] Think of it, its totally impossible to mind read 6 cards out of 52
I thought it was totally impossible to read minds full stop? ;) .

Does anone know of a method where you can have someone up on stage and you can show them the deck, no quick flashing or hurrying through the deck. A method so you can show all the cards different?

I ask this because i have come up with a method (if i can call it that) to do that.

Thanks,
Steve. [/b]
Well, If you use the Cassandra Deck by Doc Hilford then you can show the deck and do The Tossed Out Deck. But then you need to pump to get the revelations.
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Postby Doug Dyment » 08/19/04 09:50 AM

Steve-o asked:
Does anone know of a method where you can have someone up on stage and you can show them the deck, no quick flashing or hurrying through the deck. A method so you can show all the cards different?
You can do this with Psi-Deck, available from Bruce Bernstein .

... Doug
... Doug :: Proprietor of The Deceptionary
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