Scripting help

Instead of mentally projecting your mentalism thoughts, type them here.

Postby Brian Marks » 12/04/04 07:36 PM

For the last year or so, I have produced a stand up/imporv show which I host. I have different improv groups and stand up comics. My audience has ranged from 5 to 40 lay people. I often use the show to work out effects and presentations.

1 effect I have been working out is Canasta/Osterlind effect. 2 unknown cards in a spectator's pocket are named. I ask the spectator "which pocket would you like the QH to be in?". Most (75%) of the time, the spectator names the correct pocket. Very strong. Sometime the spectator says the wrong pocket. I correct them, I am shown to be right and the effect is not as strong. What makes the latter situation worse id the spectator feels that they screwed the trick up. NOT MY DESIRED OUTCOME, of course. Now none of you have seen my performance and it would be hard for you to comment on it.

Is there a better approach to this? Is there a way to rephrase the question to get the desired answer or better way to deal with the spectator if they answer incorrectly?
Brian Marks
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Nyack, NY

Postby Pete McCabe » 12/05/04 12:15 AM

Brian,

Can you be a little more specific about the trick itself?


Pete
Pete McCabe
 
Posts: 2083
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Postby Brian Marks » 12/05/04 12:42 AM

A spectator is brought on stage. He's handed a shuffled deck. Spectator cuts the deck behind his back. Puts 2 unknown cards in his right and left trouser pockets. I reveal the identity of the cards and ask the spectator "What pocket is card #1 in?". Its Published in Osterlind's Breakthrough Card Systems and a variation is in Aronson's Try the Impossible credited to Chan Canasta.


If the spectator answers the question correctly, which is most of the time, its a strong effect. If he chooses the wrong pocket, I nicely correct him. The effect is still strong. However,every time the spectator has incorrectly guessed the pocket, they have found me after the show to apologize. I am obviously doing something wrong!
Brian Marks
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Nyack, NY

Postby Guest » 12/05/04 12:01 PM

I might be totally off base here but, it would seem to me if asking which pocket someone wants a card in right or left... you could never be wrong, as if they say the right pocket and you know it to be in there right pocket you have an easy situation. However, if they say "right" and you know the queen for example is in their "left" pocket you simply hold out your right hand and touch there left pocket, quickly saying and we put the other card over here in this pocket... the "right" or "left" could be swithced up to the old "your right or my right" and you'll never be wrong.

Hope this is what you are tlaking about and I hope my answer helps

Ken
Guest
 

Postby Brian Marks » 12/05/04 02:39 PM

yeah something like that. Its the brainstorm I like. Maybee I can come up with something new from your idea.

It would be very simple for me to add your right or my right. Sort of like equivoque. THats a very interesting idea i could play with.
Brian Marks
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Nyack, NY

Postby Guest » 12/05/04 07:09 PM

I was going to agree with Ken. You could place yourself face to face with the spectator and act it out as if you are his mirror image.
When you call out left or right pocket just don't mention "your" say, "Which pocket left or right." If he says the wrong pocket then have him mirror you as you both reach into your pockets, he will now be reaching into the opposite pocket to mirror the action.
Greg
Guest
 

Postby Brian Marks » 12/05/04 07:58 PM

I could rephrase the question. Would you like the (card #1) to be in your right pocket or left pocket and put emphasis the correct pocket. Sort of a verbal force. Try and increase the odds of getting the correct pocket.
Brian Marks
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Nyack, NY

Postby Vraagaard » 12/06/04 01:32 AM

In Osterlinds original "Two cards to pockets" the effect doesn't end with the question "which pocket to you want the queen of hearts to be in?". Osterlind ends it with the following patter. He gets the sepctator to take one card in the right and one in the left pocket and then says "I get a feeling of e.g. 5 of spades and jack of hearts." and then he asks very fast "which card do you think is in which pocket". It's a different question, and it doesn't "hurt" the spectator in the same way if they get it wrong, because you don't ask it in a way that it is their task to figure it out. You just ask it as an ubnbelievable question followed from your unbelieveable statement of the cards. When I perform it, 90% of the times the spectators points to the right pocket for the first mentioned card.

If he points to the left pocket I just say, "let me feel again....Hmmm I get a feeling that it is the other way around. Well. take them out and lets see if it indeed is the two cards 5 of sapdes and jack of hearts". So in a sense I make a non-event out of the spectators "pointing" and get the focus back on the two cards.

Of course when he points to the right pocket I play it big and milk, by saying "if you think the 5 of spades is in the right pocket, then bring it out and lets see it".
Vraagaard
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 04/22/08 04:27 AM

Postby Guest » 12/06/04 10:47 AM

This is where understanding the linguistic disinctions of NLP, Wonder Words or Ericksonian Hypnosis have incredible benefit. Wording and scripting.
Guest
 

Postby Fred Zimmerman » 12/06/04 01:14 PM

"This is where understanding the linguistic disinctions of NLP, Wonder Words or Ericksonian Hypnosis have incredible benefit. Wording and scripting."

These concepts are greatly over-refrenced these days and have been given a greatly inflated reputation. Please don't confuse using language clearly, concisely, and dare I say it ... correctly--especially to promote double meaning--with these concepts that have dubious, or at best marginal, relevance to commercial performance.

Fred Zimmerman
Fred Zimmerman
 
Posts: 102
Joined: 02/02/08 01:00 PM
Location: Chicago

Postby Richard Kaufman » 12/06/04 05:59 PM

Fred's right on the money.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 20823
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Curtis Kam » 12/07/04 02:54 PM

Brian,

I think this is a question of attitude more than anything else. Frankly, it's a mystery to me why anyone in the spectator's position would feel responsible for the fact that the card's in the wrong pocket. I mean, you're Mr. Mindreader, not him. This whole trick was your idea, and you did ask him what pocket he'd "like the QH to be in." With that wording, I would assume that any failure would be percieved as your fault.

So, either you are setting this up through attitude and expectation in such a way that you're thrusting responsibility for the outcome on them, OR

you're coming across as such a likeable guy that they feel they've let you down, somehow.

Having met you before, I tend to suspect the latter, however, this is all set in a NYC comedy club, so who knows?

The moral is, when they've guessed wrongly, don't "correct" them, step up to the plate and assume responsibility for the moment. This can be handled with varying degrees of grace and/or comedy. Perhaps:

"...the left? And you want the 5 Spades on you Right? Fine. Dramatically slide your hands into your pockets, and without looking at them, slide the cards out, up, towards eachother, across your stomach, and then down into the opposite pockets."

or some other bit that implies that it's your responsibility to make things work out, not theirs.
Curtis Kam
 
Posts: 455
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Waikiki

Postby Steve Bryant » 12/07/04 02:58 PM

Yes! Why add a spectator 50-50 proposition to diminish your powers? I don't have access to the Osterland effect so perhaps that explains the situation. With the Simon Aronson version (very good, by the way), you never miss.
User avatar
Steve Bryant
 
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Bloomington IN

Postby Guest » 12/07/04 04:56 PM

These are some great suggestions and I agree with everyone on this matter, I also believe strongly that Curtis is right here; this is all attitude; if I were to ask which side right or left, I wouldnt mention the word POCKET this way if it is in their LEFT POCKET I can use that, if it has to be my LEFT HAND putting it in their RIGHT pocket then that is how it will be, this mirror image will work for you if you are not to specific to start in fact when I was an interrogator I used to hold up both hands while facing an individual this would often times force them to stop talking (the real trick to having them stop talking was to not only hold up two hands, but also to turn your head slightly breaking eye contact- this always shut them, I tried to explain this to my boss, weeks later we were talking, he held up his hands while I was talking, then he looked away, I stopped talking he laughed and said, and give me their complete attention, it is an almost magical looking gesture that yields an almost magical response, it works even on the guy that came up with it cool anyway in this case if once the cards were put into the volunteers pockets and you knew a four was in their RIGHT pocket followed by a seven in their LEFT pocket, you could hold both hands up about shoulder distance apart this will get their attention now ask RIGHT or LEFT, which side do you want to take care of your SEVEN (stress should be put on the word right but only slightly) if they say RIGHT, have them reach into their right pocket and remove the SEVEN, if the say LEFT lower your RIGHT HAND keeping your LEFT HAND up and say, OK at your request, well have just one hand my LEFT HAND take care of that SEVEN, reaching straight across ( you should be standing face-to-face ) touch their RIGHT POCKET ( dont mention RIGHT or LEFT POCKET in fact the word POCKET wont be used unless they say RIGHT and you know the seven is in their right pocket, in which case you can say, OK you want it to be in your right pocket thats were well send it )

Im sorry if I was misunderstood in my first post, I dont know Mr. Osterlands version or what his effect is for that matter. I was only trying to help out with the RIGHT or LEFT question, as I believe it is a case of Heads I Win ~ Tails You Lose, you cant be wrong (NOTE I said YOU cant be wrong I would never suggest a spectator/volunteer ever to be wrong or made to look as if they were wrong) My suggestion was away that YOU would never be wrong. Again, I was simply saying with a card in each of a spectators front pockets, you should easily be able to make it look as if you controlled which pocket the card ended up in because of a request by the audience member it seemed like it could have been an interesting idea playing with the RIGHT or LEFT question not so much with this effect, but just the RIGHT or LEFT then realizing there is no wrong answer, if you dont tell them upfront whether it was your RIGHT / LEFT or their RIGHT / LEFT again Im not real thrilled with this particular routine, but the RIGHT or LEFT question could be fun

Take Care

Ken
Guest
 

Postby Brian Marks » 12/07/04 11:25 PM

This thread is giving exactly what I need. When I started doing this effect a year ago, I got a nice reaction and would occasionally mess up. I once told a spectator to cut as much as they want. She shuffled the deck. Over time I have refined the instructions and presentation. I have done some other strightfoward effects with trick decks but this is the only effect audience members have asked for the deck. This is pretty much the last thing to be worked out in terms of the presentation.
Brian Marks
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Nyack, NY

Postby Pete McCabe » 12/08/04 02:38 AM

One possible way to soften the blow is to phrase the question this way "If I were to ask you which pocket the QS (or whatever) is in, what would you say?" The spectator can not answer this question incorrectly -- any answer they give is by definition correct. This can then be played up if correct, etc.

Of course, everything depends on your attitude. But this is already true of all magic.

But, perhaps because I've not seen this trick, I'm not sure why the question comes up in the first place. After identifying two cards randomly chosen from a shuffled deck, isn't guessing which pocket each is in anticlimactic? I assume I'm missing something here, but this seems like something that even if if succeeds will not represent the strongest arc for the action.

I guess what I'm asking is, why does it matter which pocket the cards are in?
Pete McCabe
 
Posts: 2083
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Postby Rafael Benatar » 12/08/04 04:20 AM

No matter what you do, the right-left ambiguity doesn't fly as described. If you had a row of 4 cards and asked for a number from 1 to 4, then started counting from your left or have the facing spectator count from his left, and if this were only a step toward an effect which is not centered on that, OK. But the right pocket is the right pocket and the left pocket is the left pocket, as much as your right hand is your right hand and your left ear is your left ear, no matter how many mirror concepts you conjure up.

As to the 50/50 guess, even if the spectator guesses correctly, as Pete points out, it would be anticlimactic. There is no effect there. There are, however, some cases in which a 50% proposition could have an effect:

- When repeated several times, which is not 50% anymore.

- When those odds are hidden (as with a 2-way forcing deck, if used correctly) or unknown, or appear very diferent from what they are, as in proposition bets.

- When you show such an assurance in the outcome as to smash, with a decided blow of your open hand, the paper bag (ouf of two) that doesn't contain the sharp knife pointing up. Even without going to that extent, if you convey total assurance on the outcome, the effect is greater than that of a mere 50/50 guess. For example, in the first case above, your first guess is already a litttle puzzling ,but probably not due to the guess itself (which, after all half the people would make) but to the fact that you have made the spectators think that you wouldn't be trying it if you weren't sure.
Rafael Benatar
 
Posts: 223
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Madrid, Spain

Postby Brian Marks » 12/08/04 07:43 AM

Curtis I think your right on about how I come off as a little too nice. You met me once without seeing ther performance and your dam close if not exact.

Pete & Rafael, I suppose it might unnessesary to ask them what pocket. I could just tell them which card is in which pocket and it would definately be strong effect. I have never tried the trick without asking. This is something I can do this Friday. When the spectator answers correctly which happens most of the time, this strengthens the effect or so I believe.
Brian Marks
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Nyack, NY

Postby Guest » 12/08/04 01:02 PM

Rafael,

I agree with 100% that is why I said you wouldn't use the word pocket, or hand.. in fact I said I didn't understand why anyone would do the effect as described, but that if worded correctly right or left is meaningless, what you describe is exactly what I was saying, four items in a row works better to describe my meaning, you count or have them count... and in the end right or left means nothing as long as you dont give it a meaning too early, my right or your right... heads I win tails you loose.... so while you might have misunderstood me and thought we were on different sides of the fence; actually we are making the same point, so again I agree with you/me here 100% keep up the good thoughts

Ken
Guest
 

Postby Rafael Benatar » 12/08/04 01:36 PM

Never thought I was disagreeing with you, Ken, but simply making a similar point in a different way.
Rafael Benatar
 
Posts: 223
Joined: 01/18/08 01:00 PM
Location: Madrid, Spain

Postby Guest » 12/08/04 03:55 PM

I am glad to hear that ;)

Ken
Guest
 

Postby Brian Marks » 12/12/04 01:26 AM

I performed this Friday. I had a nice audience 17 people. Not bad for a small show. Anyway I did this effect. Instead I asked the spectator after revealing both cards "Would you like the AC to be in your right pocket? They answered yes. I believe this would be a better question and may solve my problem.
Brian Marks
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 01/30/08 01:00 PM
Location: Nyack, NY

Postby Guest » 12/12/04 01:14 PM

That is good news and it sounds like the answer to your question will more often than not be "yes" good work; congrats

Ken
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 12/21/04 10:03 PM

I posted this elsewhere on the board and wanted make sure everyone had a chance to join... I'l repost it here -
___________________________________________
Join my board at www.magic-me.ipbhost.com and I'll do what I can to teach you what I know about NLP... once you join email or PM me so we can get started, I have never been taught in NLP. However I was trained in interview/interrogation and Statement Analysis, I was considered to be one of the best interrogators in my department, before breaking my back and leaving them, I was also considered by Avinoam Sapir to be one of the best on the east coast at Statement Analysis, though never trained in NLP those that I taught what I know to, have said it is similar, so perhaps there is something there for you, my board is a magic/mentalism board and my training will be FREE so you have nothing to loose

Ken
____________________________________

Hopefully those that join will also take part by posting partial scripts, or asking questions, I think this will be a case where those that do not participate either on the board, or through email/PM will be removed from that portion of the board - The board is now set to provide only certain members with access to the language portion of the board remember after registering pm or email me to let me know you joined and you want the linguistic portion
Guest
 


Return to Mentalism & Mental Magic