Tamariz - Sonata

Your doorway to those rare collectibles that everyone is searching for: books, props, posters, cards, and paper ephemera are all here for you to buy and sell.

Postby Guest » 09/05/05 09:34 PM

I am very interested in buying this book. Does anyone have this?

[Matthew:I edited out part of your request that is, in fact, illegal. Good luck in your search for the book. Dustin]
Guest
 

Postby Dustin Stinett » 09/06/05 05:56 PM

Hi Matthew,

One more thing: Once is enough around here; we have a real good group that doesn't miss much. These types of posts we want to keep here in the Marketplace. As such, I deleted your other posts requesting this book.

Anything by Tamariz that's out of print is going to be tough to find. You might want to try your luck on eBay.

Thanks,
Dustin
User avatar
Dustin Stinett
 
Posts: 6015
Joined: 07/22/01 12:00 PM
Location: Southern California

Postby Steve Bryant » 09/06/05 07:28 PM

Dustin,

I am convinced that you were incorrect in your reason for editing the above post, and I think that a request for a xerox of a single trick from a large book of tricks IS legal. Virtually every library in the country and, the last time I looked, the Magic Castle, makes photocopy machines available for similar purposes. What makes it legal is fair use guidelines, especially the Brevity clause spelled out below. (I say this at risk of similar queries suddenly exploding, and would therefore consider it a good idea for Richard to outlaw such requests, legal or not. Nevertheless...)

(This from a university library.)

COPYRIGHT GUIDELINES
The U.S. Copyright Act serves as the legal basis for protection of intellectual property, and the U.S. Copyright Office is the governmental agency responsible for oversight of the copyright process. MTSU's Walker Library adheres to the "Fair Use" provision allowed by the United States Copyright Act (Title 17 U.S. Code) and works within standard educational guidelines to maintain consistent adherence to Title 17.


"FAIR USE"
Under the Fair Use Provision (Title 17 U.S. Code Sec. 107), it is not an infringement of U.S. Copyright law to photocopy copyrighted works for purposes of teaching, scholarship, or research. However, the fair use exemption does not support indiscriminate photocopying of copyrighted materials for "educational purposes." The four factors for determining fair use are:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes,
the nature of the copyrighted work,
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole,
the effect of the use upon the potential market for, or the value of, the copyrighted work.
It is necessary to apply all four factors when determining fair use for photocopying materials for "educational purposes."

GUIDELINES

U.S. House Report #94-1476 (Guidelines on Multiple Copying for Classroom Use) provides standards for educational fair use. Walker Library has established guidelines reflecting these standards. These guidelines are not law, but represent quantitative safe harbor photocopying, permitted under the fair use criteria. Usage beyond these guidelines will require copyright clearance. The following guidelines are utilized:

1. BREVITY

A chapter from a book, or 10% of a non print unit.
An article from a periodical or newspaper, or no more than 30 seconds of a unit of music.
A short story, short essay, short poem, or 2500 fields or cells of a database.
A chart, diagram, cartoon, drawing, or picture from a book, periodical, newspaper or 10% of a unit of photographs and illustrations.
2. SPONTANEITY
The copying is at the instance and inspiration of the individual teacher.
The decision to use a photocopy of the work and the moment of its use for maximum teaching effectiveness are too close in time for copyright clearance permission.
3. CUMULATIVE EFFECT
The copying of the material is for only one course.
Allowance of only one unit of work from the same intellectual property holder; one short poem, article, story, essay or excerpt may be copied from the same author or from the work of a creative individual.
Only three units copied from the same collective work; three short poems, articles, stories, essays or excerpts of creative work.
There may be only nine instances of such multiple copying for one course during one class term.
User avatar
Steve Bryant
 
Posts: 1680
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Bloomington IN

Postby Guest » 09/06/05 08:00 PM

So you are actually claiming to want photocopies of certain effects from Sonata for the purposes of teaching? Where will you be teaching card magic?
Guest
 

Postby Steve Bryant » 09/06/05 08:25 PM

No, ONE photocopy, for learning. It's the students who do the xeroxing, for educational purposes, in any field of study, including magic. Every public library has copying machines, and they are there for fair use copying. I know this is going to push the hot button of many out there. Magicians especially are so fond of secrets that they could turn red and pop over this. Me, I consider it both legal and ethical under the restrictions listed above. If you don't, don't do it. Or call your attorney if you are conflicted. But no one is going to jail for doing what was originally requested here. Or, for that matter, to hell.
User avatar
Steve Bryant
 
Posts: 1680
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Bloomington IN

Postby Bill Mullins » 09/06/05 08:56 PM

Be careful offering legal advice, or accepting it from someone without a legal shingle. The only definition of "fair use" that can be considered reliable is:

"Fair use" is what you get a judge and jury to agree is, in fact, fair use.

It may depend on the four factors laid out in copyright law; it may depend on how the jury perceives your actions (are they offensive?); it may depend on how good your lawyer is. If you don't get caught, or if you do get caught but don't get sued, it is pretty much legally equivalent to fair use.

Note also that libraries are given specific and special exemptions in copyright law, that do not apply to individuals. So while the standards from "MTSU's Walker Library" may imply that their making a copy of an article is okay, they do not mean that it is okay for an individual to do so (and the gist of the exemption for libraries is that they may not, in some cases, be held liable if an individual makes or requests a copy that is not "fair use".)

I am NOT saying that the original request (which is now gone) would be wrong (or okay, for that matter). If the request was for a copy of an effect, or other small portion, from an out-of-print and otherwise expensive book (and these two factors can be considered and may be mitigating factors when judging "fair use"), and I thought the request was made in good faith, I personally would have no problem making the copy.

I agree with Steve that minor instances of copying won't send anyone to jail or hell. I think that the rules of secrecy within magic need to be tempered with good sense and reasonableness.

I don't blame RK or Dustin for being squeaky clean with respect to what gets put on the Genii Forum -- Richard's house, Richard's rules. If lawsuits should start to fly (probability very small), he'll surely get hit with some of the debris.

I'm just saying that "Fair Use" is a complicated issue, and if you are depending on a post from an internet board (from either a doofus like myself, or someone who has written and thought more about magic than I'll ever do, like Steve Bryant) to keep you out of trouble with Juan Tamariz or the publishers of Sonata (or even the general approbation of the magic community, if you care about that sort of thing), you are taking something of a risk. Your mileage may vary.
Bill Mullins
 
Posts: 3074
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Huntsville, AL

Postby Steve Bryant » 09/06/05 09:42 PM

It's also of interest to point out that, if you are already in the library (including the Magic Castle library), and are holding the book in your hands, you already KNOW the secrets. Your fair use photocopying of a small portion just makes it easier for you to take some details home to study.

I did that once, 40 years ago at the University of Illinois, copying out a small portion of Greater Magic (not secrets so much, but the Prolegomenon, which I loved), as I couldn't obtain a copy of the book until Richard finally published his terrific version.

Whatever the legalities, I wouldn't want to see the internet used as a means of rampant swapping of info, nor, of course, for the Genii forum to become the Napster of magic.
User avatar
Steve Bryant
 
Posts: 1680
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Bloomington IN

Postby Larry Horowitz » 09/06/05 10:05 PM

Not a lawyer, just a question.

I see no mention of the issue of copying the item for profit or being charged for the copy.

I assume that would make a difference.
Larry Horowitz
 
Posts: 400
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: L.A.

Postby Bill Mullins » 09/06/05 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Larry Horowitz:
I see no mention of the issue of copying the item for profit or being charged for the copy.

I assume that would make a difference.
Actually, it doesn't. The only way money comes into play is if the copy you make deprives the copyright owner of income, or undermines a potential market.

For example, with respect to the Tamariz books. Supposing that the book in question is out of print -- that would tend to say that making a copy of a chapter wouldn't deprive the author or publisher of any income. EXCEPT that, with potentially new editions coming out from Stephen Minch, copying now could be seen to deprive him of a legal, licensed sale.

This issue isn't controlling the determination of "fair use" in and of itself, but is one of several factors to be considered.
Bill Mullins
 
Posts: 3074
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Huntsville, AL

Postby Richard Hatch » 09/07/05 04:37 AM

Originally posted by Larry Horowitz:
I see no mention of the issue of copying the item for profit or being charged for the copy.
The original post's offer to pay for a photocopy of a specific trick in the book has been edited out. That reference is what has led to the subsequent discussion of copyright issues.
User avatar
Richard Hatch
 
Posts: 1594
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Logan, Utah

Postby Guest » 09/07/05 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Steve Bryant:
No, ONE photocopy, for learning. It's the students who do the xeroxing, for educational purposes, in any field of study, including magic. Every public library has copying machines, and they are there for fair use copying. I know this is going to push the hot button of many out there. Magicians especially are so fond of secrets that they could turn red and pop over this. Me, I consider it both legal and ethical under the restrictions listed above.
As a composer and teacher I am quite familiar with the fair use provision, which clearly applies to "teaching" and "research." These concepts have been court tested and do NOT apply willy nilly to any ol' thing you'd merely want to "learn." Are you saying, then, that you are writing an academic paper on Tamariz? If so, when and where will you be giving it? Many of us might be interested in that and would be more likely to help you with your "research."

No, sorry. Your desire to learn how a Tamariz effect works does not fall under anybody's definition of academic research. And if there is any gray issue in the legal aspect of your request, there certainly is none on ethical grounds. At least when the copy is in the library, they have bought the copy and aren't depriving the publishers and creators of income. Is filesharing also ethical in your view?

In any case, you can be comforted that Stephen Minch is planning to re-release the Tamariz books over the next couple of years. So you don't have to pay the $100+ these books are fetching on ebay, if you are willing to wait.
Guest
 

Postby Guest » 09/07/05 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Steve Bryant:
It's also of interest to point out that, if you are already in the library (including the Magic Castle library), and are holding the book in your hands, you already KNOW the secrets. Your fair use photocopying of a small portion just makes it easier for you to take some details home to study.
Yes, but as you sit there at your computer screen, you don't "KNOW" the secrets in the Tamariz book, do you?

And is there a photocopier in the Magic Castle library? I've never been there, but it would surprise me if there was one available to copy things unrestricted. There is a different standard for the access to information in the field of magic than in auto mechanics or gardening.
Guest
 

Postby Steve Bryant » 09/07/05 08:36 AM

No.
Yes.
Not legally.
And why did your mother name you scorch?

Look -- to get back to serious -- I see that you are angry with this, and I understand. I don't make the rules. Nor can I interpret them for anyone else.
User avatar
Steve Bryant
 
Posts: 1680
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Bloomington IN

Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/07/05 10:10 AM

It's against the law to make a copy of ANYTHING and give it to someone else because it may damage the ability of the copyright owner to sell that item in the future. It doesn't matter if it's in print or out of print.
The only person you can legally make a copy for is YOURSELF.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine
User avatar
Richard Kaufman
 
Posts: 21021
Joined: 07/18/01 12:00 PM
Location: Washington DC

Postby Guest » 09/10/05 08:04 AM

Hi, sorry for causing such a ruckus. I didn't realize that would be such a problem. It won't happen again.
Matt
Guest
 

Postby Frank Starsinic » 09/22/05 11:05 PM

I have an autographed copy of Sonata. $125. If you're interested, email me.
Frank Starsinic
 
Posts: 331
Joined: 01/23/08 01:00 PM
Location: Davis,CA

Postby Richard Hatch » 09/25/05 03:51 PM

Matt, if you're still looking for a copy of SONATA, we just posted one on eBay, starting bid of just 99 cents, no reserve. Please note that it does have two noted blemishes that will likely impact the price somewhat (4 loose pages, previous owner a smoker). The last copy of this edition (paperback) that we had sold on eBay for $137.50, so Frank's autographed copy(above)--if still available--is a bargain! Here's a link to our auction:
Tamariz SONATA on eBay
User avatar
Richard Hatch
 
Posts: 1594
Joined: 01/17/08 01:00 PM
Location: Logan, Utah


Return to Collector's Marketplace