As I said, I have to defer the Three Fly complete history to others. I have even heard that there have been panel discussions on the subject in the past.
So, it's probably not going to be settled here, by me (the three-fly novice "out of my league"), Stuart (the young snot), or Townsend (the man who hasn't published "it").
But since Stuart is getting a little snooty, let's clear up a few things:
Lee's routine is clean and direct. I find fault with so many magicians who gum up the works with a lot of the unnecessary ... like " the close-up waist level work, chest level work, ungaffed work, gaffed work, using Steve Dusheck's shell, and a variety of other things." (Quoting Stuart's previous post.)
I haven't seen Townsend's routine, because, remember, it hasn't been published, which is still a big deal with me -- it's hard to credit a source, when there is no published source. (As a writer, everyone I know is going to publish their "book," as soon as it's finished. And as a magician, every magician I know is going to publish his trick, someday. Human nature says otherwise.)
According to Stuart, Mr. Townsend's routine is gaffed, ungaffed, waist level, chest level, etc. The way Stuart describes the routine makes it sound indirect and convoluted. It sounds like a messy routine.
Again, apologies to Jonathan -- I am going by Stuart's description only. It can't be as bad as he's making it sound, right?
Lee's routine is direct.
Jonathan, in a sense, has played it very smart by not publishing his work...
Right after I published my first book on 'Wrist Locks,' a man told me that he had been working on the very same book for 12 years. (I could see the jealousy in his eyes.)
I thought this very interesting, since many of the locks and sequences came straight out of my head. Others came from the many years that I have taught martial arts. And I used some locks (with credit, of course) from Kali, Escrima, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Chin na, and the other locking martial arts.
That this man could have taken locks from all those styles, been privy to the ones I invented, and had real JKD (Bruce Lee's style) training to make them practical is highly unlikely.
But guess what.
Since he had never pubished his "book," he could claim that it contained everything, incudng the kitchen sink ... and of course, his book contained my proprietary routines, which I had never shared with anyone. HIghly doubtful.
As I said Mr. Townsend is smart. By not publishing, he can claim that his routine is everything and that all have copied and stolen.
By Townsend's disciple's (Stuart's) own admission, Townsend's routine emcompasses all. In other words -- it's a weak routine. Try to please everyone, and you end up entertaining nobody.
Remember, the messy nature of the routine is only an educated guess. I have not seen J.T.'s coin routine.
So, historically, let's say J.T.'s is the routine that is the grand-daddy of them all. That doesn't make it any less weak, since it might contain all that Stuart claims.
Well, I have seen the Kenner routine. It doesn't have all that Stuart claims Townsend's has -- it seems Chris must have improved the routine when he cleaned it up, and eliminated some of the extraneous.
To be honest (or to continue in my original vein), I like Lee Asher's routine. There are parts of the 'original' Three Fly that bother me, personally (sorry Chris).
Lee did a great job cleaning up many of the 'perceived' problems.
If the claim is that Kenner's routine "is" similar to (or based on) Townsend's, then I am sure that the Townsend's routine is replete with the unnecessary and the suspicious "too."
We really need to thank Lee Asher for providing a clean, direct routine.
So, that is what I know and can extrapolate from the information provided.
I would love to have been able to sit down and compare Townsend's routine to Kenner's, move by move, but unfortunately Townsend never published it. And as I already mentioned some expert (not "Other Agenda Stuart") should be the one to address that issue.
Whether or not Chris stole from Townsend -- I wasn't there (nor were you). I know Lee Asher respects Chris highly, and I know how painstaking Lee is in his efforts to figure out whom to include in his credits. He is a stickler for being proper, and if someone isn't included, there is a reason.
As Stuart points out (He) and I are out of our league. So, neither of us should be makin ghtese comments.
Unfortunately, Stuart probably won't let us get back to the Magic Makers discussion. And yes, it would be funny to have Stuart liken Magic Makers to Chris Kenner in front of Chris.
This is all sad, but funny. (oxymoronic statement, sorry.)
Just think, we waivered off the true topic, because Stuart complained that Lee didn't credit Townsend. Then, it was immediately pointed out that Jonathan Townsend did receive the first credit.
In a court of law, if you find error in somoene's testimony, you are instructed to disregard the rest of their statements. Hmmm.
I admit exactly what I do and don't know about this subject. A lot of what I say is conjecture, and not meant to offend Mr. Townsend.
For example, I did not discuss the "whys" of J.T.'s lack of publication. As an author, folks tell me all of the time about 'the book' they are working on. These books rarely get completed and/or published. Everybody is writing a book, it seems.
We aren't here to discuss the motivation or lack thereof behind not publishing a trick.
In fact, we weren't here to discuss Three Fly at all. Oops, on my part, too.
PS Mr. Townsend sounds like a nice guy, based on the little I know about him, and the private letter I received this morning from him, off thread.
Chris Kenner was the perfect host.
Lee Asher is one my favorite people on this earth.
Stuart is a little brash, and needs a "time out," in the corner, without cookies and milk.
And I Kip Pascal, apologize for having to affect this occasionally condescending attitide. The only excuse I can offer is that I was a high school teacher for over a dozen years, before turning to writing full time.
Again, sorry for the attitude in this post.
Keith Pascal has authored (and published) over 500 articles on the martial arts.
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