Ghost Kings?

Discuss general aspects of Genii.

Postby Charlie Chang » 10/07/04 06:07 AM

I just saw an online demo for something called Ghost Kings.

It is, in fact, Lee Asher's Twist - move for move (except for the obvious lack of skill).

If anyone has seen this thing, I'd love to hear if it even credits Lee.

P.
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Postby Temperance » 10/07/04 06:43 AM

This the latest Magic Makers knock off? Got a link?
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Postby Randy Naviaux » 10/07/04 07:27 AM

http://www.magicmakersinc.com/ghostkings.wmv

I got an email from a fellow in SLC that is a "distributor" of MM products. There is also a 'Healed and Sealed' rip-off available as well.

http://www.magicmakersinc.com/crushedandcured.wmv

A lot of posts were deleted on this topic over at the cafe. Strange to say the least.

Randy
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 07:31 AM

There is also a new loops knockoff with a loops dvd: Unseen Forces, sold by Magic Makers and Penguin Magic.

Not to mention countless other things that have been knocked off.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 10/07/04 08:02 AM

Originally posted by rnaviaux:
A lot of posts were deleted on this topic over at the cafe. Strange to say the least.
And the reason given was that commenting about the ethics surrounding the DVD releases was off topic in a forum specifically for DVD reviews. Steve Brooks' "sticky" topic about what is and is not off topic does, indeed, specify that.

Fine, it's not my bat and ball, not my rules. I won't argue that comments about the ethics of the contents of a DVD are as relevant to the review as are comments about the performer's choice of t-shirt or hardware he has inserted into his eye brow -- mostly because it won't matter to argue them, even though I think my perspective on the matter is accurate.

But I have to admit my head explodes when I see laudatory comments about Rob Stiff and/or Magic Makers in conjunction with a DVD, and those comments cannot be questioned or refuted because they are off topic. Comments about quality, etc. are one thing. But "they're really doing a great service to magic" and other crap like that just... Well, it annoys me.

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Postby Charlie Chang » 10/07/04 08:35 AM

I finally got through to Asher. Naturally, he's not pleased.

I suggest you go to Lee's site and compare his video of the Twist to the Magic Makers rip-off. Not only has he stolen Lee's trick, he's obviously copied the online demo!

Here's the link:

www.leeasher.com/watchmymagic.htm

Now they've taken "Healed And Sealed" too, it seems. Unbelievable!

What really upsets me is that many magicians (especially a large number who inhabit other forums) just don't care that this is happening to our art. Steve Brooks ("Magicians Helping Magicians") even deleted a thread for discussing the issue!

With the people we have in THIS forum, surely we can come up with a practical way to fight this kind of thing. When the unethical businessmen prey on our art, isn't there something we can do to stop them? These latest examples are so blatant I expect to see DVDs of ANYTHING from ANY book and ANY magazine if these people think they can bleed money out of it.

I sincerely hope more of you are as upset about this as I am.

P.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 09:00 AM

First there was Coke then there was Pepsi. Its the nature of the beast.
Dont get me wrong I hate to see artists blatantly ripped off, however unless drastic measures are taken ( lawsuits, boycotts and the like) there is really no way to stop the theft from happening.
Originators of magical methods and effects will no longer choose to release material to the magic community. Our loss. Sad. Very sad.
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Postby John LeBlanc » 10/07/04 09:00 AM

Originally posted by R P Wilson:
I finally got through to Asher. Naturally, he's not pleased.
Lee posted in one of the threads himself. As did Anders Moden about his "Healed & Sealed" being taken to produce the DVD.

There in one spot, where the comments are most relevant, readers had an opportunity to hear it right from the horse's mouth -- no outside opinions, but opinions and thoughts from the originators themselves.

All deleted because the comments were considered "off topic" based on the forum's rules.

I think it's time to revisit the review guidelines and accept the fact that ethics are part of the review process.

John LeBlanc
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 10/07/04 09:02 AM

Wow...interesting info here about Crushed and Cured: "An old street magic effect that's been around since the invention of the aluminum can."

Whah?

Not to mention that the demo of the effect is even worse than David Blaine's performance of it.

-Jim
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 10/07/04 09:12 AM

By the way, these threads over at the Cafe are not deleted, but locked and contain posts from Anders:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... &forum=111

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... &forum=109

Those threads seem to be the only ones currently on the Cafe that deal with the effects.

-Jim
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Postby John LeBlanc » 10/07/04 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Jim Maloney:
By the way, these threads over at the Cafe are not deleted, but locked and contain posts from Anders:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... &forum=111
Okay, Anders comments are still there. Yesterday morning all of it was gone.

And Lee's comments on the "Ghost Kings" explained that Magic Makers contacted him to obtain permission to do the thing. Lee did not allow it, Magic Makers did the DVD anyway.

Lee's comments would have gone far to educate Cafe readers who were contemplating buying the DVD, but they have been deleted.

John LeBlanc
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 10/07/04 09:19 AM

One more thing, while perusing the Magic Makers site. Have you seen that they sell Mike Skinner's Ultimate Thre...oh wait, I mean the Million Dollar Monte.

http://www.magicmakersinc.com/MillionDollarMonte.html

Ugh.

-Jim
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Postby Temperance » 10/07/04 09:42 AM

The Simon Lovell Million Dollar Card Magic DVD is also on the dubious side...
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Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » 10/07/04 10:38 AM

Simon asserts that the production of his DVD's went through the proper channels. I trust him.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/sear ... st=3826766

-Jim
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Postby Carl Mercurio » 10/07/04 10:46 AM

As much as I loved Frank Garcia, I wonder how much of the material in the book he put through the proper channels before publishing it...
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Postby Jeff Eline » 10/07/04 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Carl Mercurio:
As much as I loved Frank Garcia, I wonder how much of the material in the book he put through the proper channels before publishing it...
True or not, it still doesn't excuse Magic Makers for ripping off Lee (and countless others). This is despicable! :mad:
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Postby Carl Mercurio » 10/07/04 10:55 AM

Very true...Carl
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Postby Randy Naviaux » 10/07/04 10:57 AM

I know it is only a drop in the bucket but I refuse to frequent the Cafe' anymore. Not a big loss for the site, I know.

I know how I would feel if someone pirated something that I developed. So I can't in good faith support those that in whatever way help this to occur.

Sincerely,

Randy
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Postby Temperance » 10/07/04 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Jim Maloney:
Simon asserts that the production of his DVD's went through the proper channels. I trust him.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/sear ... st=3826766

-Jim
He doesn't really.

"I was asked to do this project early this year. To the best of my knowledge everything was out of copyright and these DVD's were to be an homage, a tribute, to Frank's books. I have been assurred that everything was to be credited correctly but I have not seen the DVD's yet so don't know."
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Postby Jim Riser » 10/07/04 11:12 AM

Originally posted by nola:
<snip> Originators of magical methods and effects will no longer choose to release material to the magic community. Our loss. Sad. Very sad.
Unknown to the crowd at the Magic Cafe, this is already happening. I remain in contact with several other designers/builders. More and more of our time is being spent on "top secret" items that the majority of magic customers (note that I did not say magicians) will never see nor even know about. The average magic customer apparently does not care about the originators, the expenses involved in development, nor ethics. Price is their only concern. Magic Makers and Penguin will continue to thrive as long as the masses wanting cheap magic (regardless of quality or ethics issues) continue to buy from them. Unfortunately, many dealers are also supporting these guys too.

A good boycott would put these rip off producers out of business within a few months. There are those of us who care about such things and the majority of magic purchasers who are ignorant of the facts or too cheap to let such matters influence their buying decisions. The vast number of purchasers will continue to buy from these unethical guys because they are convinced this is the only place they can get whatever at a cheap price. The few who know what is happening know that it is very possible to live without any products from the likes of Magic Makers and Penguin. Until the masses of magic purchasers realize this, I see no change in their buying patterns. The "editing" policy at the Magic Cafe certainly supports the rip off producers - especially if they buy ad banner space. BTW - I have turned off such banners and never even see any of them (so much for that being a viable advertising medium).

The immediate changes in magic being offered to others will be seen from the originators. There will be fewer new releases to the whole magic fraternity. These releases will come with strings attached - such as nondisclosure agreements etc. Prices will go up due to sales lost to the rip off versions. I personally have several items that I have held off releasing due to such concerns. On a couple items, I have waiting lists much longer than the number of the desired items that I will be producing. I am still deciding on how I will eliminate potential purchasers without merely raising prices (probably an application for purchase coupled with a nondisclosure agreement). Due to the actions of Magic Makers and Penguin, many magic performers will be disappointed over the long haul. This is all coming about in response to the unethical behavior of Magic Makers and Penguin. The entire magic community will suffer the consequences of the marketing and purchasing patterns of others. This is sad; but the way things are going.

It really boils down to "put these guys out of business or suffer the consequences". Magic Makers and Penguin know well what they are doing. They are currently laughing all the way to the bank as ignorant, noncaring, unethical magic purchasers continue to buy their crappy products.

In addition to the issue of unethical magic producers, another thing to consider is whether the magic community "needs" the magic purchasers who keep such ilk in business. I certainly do not.
Jim
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 11:23 AM

Hi Paul,

The Magic Cafe' is deleting more than just the recent posts that point out that Magic Makers (Rob Stiff) has blatantly ripped-off Lee Asher (http://www.LeeAsher.com) and many others.

I wrote to the manager's section of Magic Cafe' asking what I could do to keep these threads open. I thought that "I" had committed some breach of etiquette, perhaps.

My post was deleted. So, I reposted. Again deleted.

A "wise man" (OK, it was Lee Asher) told me not to expect any fair treatment, since I don't feed The Cafe with advertising dollars.

I guess that's undestandable. The Cafe' is protecting its advertisers, even if the advertiser happens to be a mass of 'mucilaginous goo.'

BTW -- Here's the letter that I tried to post in the manager's section. This is the request that was deleted TWICE:


[To the manager of The Magic Cafe']

I am a little confused.... (some say a lot),

I tend to post at The Caf, when someone has hurt someone else by outright stealing original material.

I never post, unless this can be proven 100%.

So far, I am listed as having posted only once. All the threads where I join in and support the true artist seem to be deleted.

Could you help me figure out how to "stick" on the Magic Caf?

I think it was Ashleigh Montegue who said 'not to judge a person (group) by what they say, but rather by their actions.'

The Cafe's 'action' is to delete threads.

Is the Caf closing these threads, because:

1. I use euphemisms instead of the real name -- for example, if somoene's name were "The Magic Giant," I might change it to "The Magic Midget." I would do this if this person did something very 'small and distasteful.'

Is this why the threads shut down? Should I just use the proper name? No sarcasm allowed?

2. Are they shut down, because the topic is too scary for that particular moderator to handle?

3. Does Magic Caf have some link to the companies that are ripping people off? And I just don't know who is sleeping with whom? (I could be criticizing a moderator's best friend and not know.)

4. Do the moderators like the image that magicians promulgate when they rip off others' material?


I think I am looking for guidelines on how I can accomplish my goal, whch is to raise magic as an art form, quickly shut down sleazy rip-off artists, and teach the public that we aren't all bad, and out to fleece anyone who will buy anything.

I am not joking -- I want guidelines on how to keep these topics open -- even if it means posting a warning that the thread is drifting into dangerous territory.

Please help me to understand why the posts that end up supporting the true artist get squelched.

Kip Pascal, a caring magician

PS It could really help the Caf's image if folks truly believed that The Magic Caf had a high moral standard and didn't support the thieves. Show support by leaving threads that identify the true rip-off artists, but be quick to close the threads that are just plain attacks without any 'empirical data.'


.
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/07/04 11:36 AM

Kip, I'm not sure why you're spending so much time being concerned with the Magic Cafe. Many people have noted it's bias. For a biased example of such notation of bias you can check out the Magic Circle Jerk blog. It's always offensive, sometimes funny, and from what I can tell, most often correct in it's criticisms of the Cafe policies.

I could see if the Cafe provided some sigificant, useful information. But in my opinion it just mirrors the corrupt, feel good, Political Correctness of America at large. Since it's a privately funded board of course, no one can really say it's unrasonable for the owner to do what he wants with it; just don't expect the results to mirror the goody two shoes image which the board tries to project.
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Postby Jeff Haas » 10/07/04 12:10 PM

I'll be happy to sign NDAs for exclusive material. And I don't mind going through some sort of "vetting" process.

Jeff
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 10/07/04 12:10 PM

Cribbing and Nicking Galore: Just for the Tattered Record, even the title "Ghost Kings" has been used before. Check out MAGIE DUVIVIER (1996), p. 131. Same title; different trick.

Still trying to get a life,
Onward...

JR
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Postby Charlie Chang » 10/07/04 12:36 PM

I finally got through to Asher. Naturally, he's not pleased.

I suggest you go to Lee's site and compare his video of the Twist to the Magic Makers rip-off. Not only has he stolen Lee's trick, he's obviously copied the online demo!

Here's the link:

www.leeasher.com/watchmymagic.htm

Now they've taken "Healed And Sealed" too, it seems. Unbelievable!

What really upsets me is that many magicians (especially a large number who inhabit other forums) just don't care that this is happening to our art. Steve Brooks ("Magicians Helping Magicians") even deleted a thread for discussing the issue!

With the people we have in THIS forum, surely we can come up with a practical way to fight this kind of thing. When the unethical businessmen prey on our art, isn't there something we can do to stop them? These latest examples are so blatant I expect to see DVDs of ANYTHING from ANY book and ANY magazine if these people think they can bleed money out of it.

I sincerely hope more of you are as upset about this as I am.

P.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 12:49 PM

Robert,

Thanks for the information.

My only reason for posting at "Cafe' Crud" (See, I can't help it with my slightly sarcastic euphemisms), was to support original, creative genius.

You're right -- I had no idea that "The Magic Coffee Hut" was other than the clean image portrayed on their Web Site.

Now, I know better.

BTW-- I complained to my folks about Rob Stiff's actions. They know Lee Asher (http://www.LeeAsher.com).

My parents' response what, "What do you expect? Stiff's a magician. It's the nature of the beast to deceive people."

I want to change this image. There are many of us who detest the slimy ilk of the world.

It will be hard to change this 'image' (magician = dishonest), given the practices and the attitudes our youth are learning on the Internet:

* They want it cheap or free

* They don't care one bit about "intellectual property"

* They approve of "Kazaa-Like" sites, where bootlegging runs rampant.

* And THEY BUY FROM MAGIC MAKERS and PENGUIN.


The idea of a boycott has crossed my mind, too.

Circulate posters through all of the shops with all of the creative artists signing the boycott against the aforementioned companies.

Reward magic shops that refuse to do business with rip-off artists. Give them posters to hang. Provide them with direct, honest suppliers to the 'real magic.'

Show the world how slimy certain companies are -- show them that slime can rub off. Make it so distasteful to do business with the creeps of the industry, that any who still buy from the losers are totally embarrassed.

Thoughts?

Kip -- still a caring magician
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Postby Robert Allen » 10/07/04 01:00 PM

Kip, magic is just a cross section of society unfortunately.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 01:29 PM

Lee,
I hate to say this but you deserve to be ripped off. Your ideas are too creative. Your methods are to useful. You are threat to the people who have zero creative ability. On more than one occasion you have invented a routine that is so good, people hate to admit it's not thiers. Infact, I would really appreciate it if you Pm me with further ideas before releasing them to the public. That way I can take them, not even change them slightly, and sell them as my own. I think you owe it to the magic community. I could be wrong.
-DS
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 02:04 PM

They have a new one now it's called Million Dollar Monte. This is Michael Skinner's Monte.

Just amazing... :mad:
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Postby Brad Henderson » 10/07/04 02:34 PM

This may clutter this issue, but it may not.

I have been having many discussions with a lawyer friend of mine who is also a musician. Specifically, he arranges pieces originally intended for orchestra for band. As a lawyer, he is fastidious about the copyright law.

I am wondering if the law regarding "arrangements" can apply to marketed tricks. Basically, if a composer holds a piece of music under copyright - a series of notations instructing someone to perform certain actions in order to produce a work of performance art - then no one is allow to take that idea and offer a copy as their own OR change it in any way (for a different media) without the copyright holder's permission.

In fact, we had a long argument about the concept of change. In magic, we encourage people to take our published works and personalize them. His contention was that, unless someone received permission from the copyright holder, one cannot legally change a piece of music (or play). (Note, I am referring to pieces still under copyright, not Shakespeare.)That in effect this becomes an "Arrangement" and therefore would be in violation of the law.

Does this not in some way apply to what we do?

Could we not start releasing our "tricks" as mini-plays or "performance art pieces?" Then if someone offers the same "play" they are in violation, no?

While this cannot keep someone from knocking off a set of cups or a prop, it could address issues such as Ghost Kings/Asher Twist.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 03:13 PM

Dave S.,

I think what you are really trying to say is that if Rob Stiff and Oz Pearlman stopped producing their rip-offs, then the world would be a better place.

If Lee Asher stopped producing his original effects, then the world would hurt ... and Oz and Rob would have to move on to someone else, to copy.

I bet Rob and Oz check out http://www.LeeAsher.com daily, to see what they can rip off next.

Kip

PS I had a random thought -- not only could we boycott the magic shops who do business with Penguin and 'Magic Fakers,' but we could boycott anyone who does their tricks.

Can you imagine some poor beginner at the magic club. He starts to perform an original Lee Asher effect. The magicians are intrigued.

Then the trick changes into the rip-off by Oz.

All of a sudden, the other magicians are uncomfortable. No applause is forthcoming.

The beginner feels hurt. So, one of the veteran magicians, out of the goodness of his heart, takes the poor, young soul aside and explains his BIG mistake.

"Sorry son," says the older magician. "You performed a Penguin magic effect. It's going to take a long time for folks to forget the boo-boo you just made."

At another meeting, in another town, some kid receives a similar lecture when he announces that he is about to perform "Ghost Kings."

No trick from either company would be welcome in the company of 'real' magicians.

It could happen with a concerted effort.

Well, I can imagine and dream, can't I?
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/07/04 03:17 PM

Simpler still...

Go to Lybrary and buy some old books, read them... and see what they inspire you to do.

Then do what you find interesting.
Mundus vult decipi
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 03:46 PM

Thank you to Mr. Riser and Kip, (among others).

As a young man and a deadly serious student of the Art, I must stress that I have no desire to become a hermit too early in my career. However, continually I am discouraged by the vast body of my peers, (but then teenagers have been dreadful since time immemorial), however, I am much more greatly disturbed by the low levels of Ethical principles and quite frankly, Artistic capability amongst my ELDERS .

With that in mind, it is good to see more and more elders speaking their minds and doing so in a way that indicates there is indeed some honour left in this community.

I must however, look at one quibble. It has been said that Mr. Asher is quite angry at having been ripped off, and rightly so. What I find scary however, is that the problems that we face are multi-leveled. Deeper. There aren't just the creators and the thieves. For Mr. Asher, in his recent variant of the Visual Coins Across plot, done with poker chips, fails to even mention the originator, (let alone, god forbid, give him a phone call). And to boot, in a recent thread on the magic cafe where the issue was being discussed in some length, failed to even adress the originator, who was posting on the same thread.

He simply ignored the originator.

Which brings me back to something that I've said before.

HOW HARD IS IT FOLKS? ESPECIALLY for people who are creators themselves, and feel the pain of theft, how hard is it for them to do some research, to properly credit their tricks? I say we should be more afraid of not crediting someone who deserves it, than crediting someone with more than is their due. And yet it seems magician's disagree.

And more than crediting, HOW HARD IS IT FOLKS, in this information age, to speak with creators, and ask their permission on things? I live in a small dusty town on the Southern Tip of the Republic of Panama. My internet connection is at 16kbps. And somehow, I manage to get in touch with pretty much, anybody I like in the magic community.

And lasty, HOW HARD IS IT FOLKS, if permission is not granted, or is out of your price range, HOW HARD IS IT, to simply NOT PERFORM, or TEACH and effect? I will not say that they are just magic tricks, and would not advise anyone to utter that statement in my presence. However, as Artists we should be able to invent our own material to fill our performance needs, or at worst seek others from whom we can obtain/purchase material. There is an enormous volume of material out there, and so much left to be discovered.

Thats what it comes down to. You require permission to perform/teach effects from the creators. To cite/describe the effect without permission is accetable, to my knowledge.

If these rules are not followed, then yes, the winter which Mr. Riser is predicting, and of which awareness has been growing, will most definately arrive. Hopefully companies like Magic Makers won't last long, or many magicians are going to be cold for a long while.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 04:00 PM

Stuart,

I'm guessing you haven't read Lee's booklet, because if you did, you'd notice Jonathan's name at the top of the list of credits.

I'm not sure asking the creators is always the answer. When I publish anything, I expect people to use it, and even come up with their own variations, and publish them if there is sufficient improvement.

This is what has happened in the scientific community, information has become freely exchanged, a tradition that dates back to 1665 with the Royal Society's publication of Philosophical Transactions. Science has surely advanced much more than magic has, and I wouldn't doubt if the system of free exchange had a significant impact upon it. Imagine scientists keeping all their discoveries to themselves until they got old and decided to publish a book with all of their work. Pretty ridiculous.

I fear that if we were always required to ask the permission of creators, the egos of some creators would not want us to impinge upon their work with improvements, thus stifling the progression of the art. This is also a very grey area. When is someone expected to ask someone and when is someone allowed to publish freely. Are we expected to contact Vernon and Doc Daley's estate everytime we want to publish a version of the slow motion aces? When does something become public domain and why? This is an issue people are struggling with in the literary world. Check out: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,128 ... page_next1

Having to ask the permission of creators all the time I don't think is the answer, it has the potential to stiffle progression. The answer, in my opinion, is for the consumers to become educated.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 04:30 PM

My full apologies then. I was told by what I believed to be reliable sources that such was not the case.

The permission issue is still lacking, but Mr. Chosse has a point about crediting. (other threads)

Again, my apologies to Mr. Asher. Slips like that endanger my "serious student" approach. :(

I hope this does not negate the bulk of my post.

Ah you edited. Yes, there are grey areas. But your fears about asking permission of creators are basically irrelevant. It is after all, THEIR PROPERTY we are discussing.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 05:05 PM

Stuart,

I hope I may speak for Lee Asher on the crediting of the originators of Coins Across (with hands held high). If you read the trick Three Stylin', you'll see my name (Kip) appears underneath Lee's on the title page.

I didn't invent the trick (or contribute any moves) -- just helped with the explanation and the writing.

As far as originators, did you mean Townsend or Chris Kenner?

Of course Lee credited Chris Kenner. And the first credit went to Jonathan Townsend, even though his routine was (and still is??) unpublished, after all of these years.

BTW -- Isn't it true that Townsend only brought his hands up for one move? Still Lee was polite enough to give credit.

Stuart, I applaud your effort to find honor in the art as well.

We need to clarify what's going on:

The Asher Twist: Rob Stiff hasn't changed one iota of the routine. Every move is the same. Someone should teach this 'stiff wretch' a legal lesson.

Thunderbird: Oz Pearlman stole this routine and changed some of the moves, because the others were too difficult for Oz to master. Let's be clear about this. He plugged in inferior moves, and in a sense, destroyed the effect.

Should Oz be sued for ripping off most of the effect? Maybe. Out of principle yes, since he has been accused of stealing other material as well. But maybe we should just offer pity for making the wrong choice and linking up with the scum of magic companies.

Three Stylin': This is Lee's variation. First of all, he gives credit where credit is due. But he has made some very, and I do mean extremely, important changes to the routine.

He has cleaned up coins across for everyone. He also added color, without suffering directness of movement.

It's a different routine -- stronger.

Now, here's the true test:

Ask the creators. If you ask Lee whether or not Stiff and Pearlman have stolen, I am sure we can all guess his answer.

If you ask Kenner, Kranzo, Wilson, Ammar, and Latta (the creators credited) if Lee's routine is an original and they'll all say yes.

Stuart, these are just a few thoughts. I applaud that we have someone young, like you, who will carry on the art with high morals.

Kip
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 10/07/04 05:44 PM

You can never be sure of what anyone will say when asked a question.
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Postby Jonathan Townsend » 10/07/04 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
You can never be sure of what anyone will say when asked a question.
re:" BTW -- Isn't it true that Townsend only brought his hands up for one move? Still Lee was polite enough to give credit."

Sorry folks, was tried all three that way back in 1977.

If he had bothered to ask, I would have told him I had experimented with poker chips for most of my coin work... and likely had NOT tried his particular approach to the trick.

As you may recall, I don't go for overt fussing/handling of the props in general, and this trick in particular was originally designed to appear moveless.

I'll leave the dig implied by the word "polite" alone.

Reed McClintock discussed some of his ideas and I was happy to endorse them. It's great to hear from someone that they like an idea and have their own personal vision.
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Postby Pete Biro » 10/07/04 06:32 PM

JOe Porper and I have come out with two major items of late, and have a few more on the drawing board that will be out soon.

My total income, now, is from creating and selling magic. If I get ripped by these scumbags it will seriously hurt my ability to pay the rent.

I hope they keep things like this in mind.

It isn't that hard to find and hire some creative people that can produce new magic, just put the price right and the material will come.

We need a lot of discussion, like this, to keep everyone informed.
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Postby Guest » 10/07/04 06:54 PM

No offense intended to Townsend. It's just that I see a lot more credit needing to head to people like Chris Kenner (humble opinion only after comparing what I know about both routines).

Jonathan, this is absolutely not meant as a cut:

I am an author by trade. For me, "published" work for crediting is of paramount importance. I apologize ahead of time if you have published your work, and I missed it. But if your work is not yet published, then it is "very polite" of Lee to credit you, wouldn't you agree?

As for using poker chips in lieu of coins -- ahem, haven't we all?
Look at what Lee has done with the routine. I am absolutely sure that you appreciate genius when you see it.

I prefer not to comment on R.Mc. -- no need to question his practices of lifting material and not crediting, in this thread.
He's small potatoes.

I would hope folks choose to go after the big offenders -- like Magic Makers and Penguin.

Anyway Jonathan, I apologize if you felt offended. I think Lee did a good job of giving you the first credit in the resource section -- an honor.

Kip

PS For me, the topic at hand is dealing with the rip off companies, not having a symposium over the origins of coins across. I didn't mean to shift the focus of the thread -- let's get back to brainstorming how to take care of the thieves out there.
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