Porper Copper Cups and Wand with Hardwood box

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Postby Terry » 05/25/02 06:03 AM

Here you go - as of 5/25/02 9:03AM - $1,009.99

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2104831854

Talk about an investment!
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Postby Bob » 05/25/02 04:53 PM

And the reserve hasn't been met yet!!!!!!!

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Postby Michael Edwards » 05/26/02 01:27 AM

They sold for $350 above the reserve.
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Postby Terry » 05/26/02 05:15 AM

$1800 for a set of cups??? I'm sorry, but that is stupid. I don't care who made them or performed with them. I guess the thought of future profit may cause this madness.

I will say the wand is a thing of beauty though.
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Postby Michael Edwards » 05/26/02 05:33 AM

Terry: What was stupid was getting up at 4am to bid on them :D .

Each of us values things differently. Certainly there is an intrinsic value in most items -- how much do they cost, how much could you sell them for, what other assets could you get in return. There may also an aesthetic value -- its artistic beauty, how it appeals to the senses. Items can also have a personal value. I would pay a fortune for a photograph of my grandfather, though I doubt anyone else would pay more than a few pennies for such a picture. And then there's the factor of simple desire. How much do you want the item? Imagine you've been collecting some set of things for twenty-five years and you are only missing one solitary item to complete the entire set. Wouldn't you be willing to pay more for that final piece than you were for its predecessors?

The final price was indeed a great deal of money. But let me give you an idea of some of the things that other individuals who participate in this Forum have paid as much for in recent weeks: an old magic set, an old magic book, a set of used magic magazines, an autograph of a long deceased magician, a set of shackles that probably were NOT Houdini's, rising card apparatus that no longer works, an old cabinet photo frayed at the corners. Stupid purchases? I'll let others resond to that.

Each of us has to make choices about how we spend our time and money. I was not the successful bidder in this eBay auction. But I can tell you this. Had not my browser unexpectedly quit at 4:18 this morning, the final price would have been even higher!
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Postby Michael Edwards » 05/26/02 06:08 AM

So...anyone got a Porper wand for sale??? :D
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Postby mehtas » 05/26/02 07:51 AM

I agree with T T,

$1,825.00 for those cups are tooo much,
unless they were used by houdini :)
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Postby Jim Riser » 05/26/02 02:42 PM

I'm not so sure that the final price for the Joe Porper collection was too much. If I was interested in obtaining this set, I might have gone higher. It must be understood that the final price was not just for a set of copper cups. Joe Porper is world famous for his beautiful cue sticks. In the future the wand will be a rare example of his work and will most likely appreciate in value much more that you might imagine. As a builder, I understand and respect his work. Whenever I consider buying something of this quality, I ask myself if I could make it as well - or at all. Before commenting on the final bid as being too high, you might want to ask if you could make the collection and what you would want to be paid for it if you did make it. Skilled labor time is not cheap! The equipment to make the items is not cheap and the builder needs a suitable return on investment. This are business not hobby concerns here. In my opinion the bid price was reasonable for what was being sold.
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Postby Frank Yuen » 05/26/02 09:58 PM

As far as the cups go, wasn't there a post some time ago that mentioned Joe Porper was going to start making cups again? If this is true then I would have to say the bidding got a little carried away. Does anyone else remember this mention? Can anyone confirm?

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Postby mehtas » 05/27/02 02:04 AM

it might happen,

just like Pure Effect by Derren Brown.

people said its out of print and bla bla.

and Now....... (no need to say more)
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Postby Terry » 05/27/02 05:10 AM

The Porper cups and Hartman's 'Card Craft' are 2 over-bidded items on EBay. Are people bidding in realization of the value of the material, bidding to charge the price up, or bidding to prove that "You are not going to beat me on this"?

One danger of EBay is that you cannot see the person you are bidding against to estimate/guess their motives. Also I think that ego does get in the way of common sense in the bidding process.

I hope no one misunderstood my first post - I am glad the person who put the cups up for bidding got that price.

Michael, I agree that the value of anything offered for retail is determined by how much we are willing to pay for it. Once the demand is settled, the price will drop - look at VCR's and DVD's, initial demand kept the price high, now the prices are reasonable.
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Postby Michael Edwards » 05/27/02 05:26 AM

Terry:

This was an interesting auction. I know all of the top five bidders and I can assure you they are all rational and knowledgeable individuals. And they each had a different reason for bidding the amount they did.

Did these cups, wand and case fetch more than what would seem reasonable? Indeed. Just a few days earlier a brass set of Porper cups with case but no wand went for $760. My expectation was the this particular set would bring about $1200 on the open market. Was I surprised that they exceeded $1800? Yes. Do I think the winning bidder was foolish, misinformed, or made a mistake? No. Do I expect that if another set like this were put on the market today it would realize the same amount? Probably not. The world has changed. First, the high bidder now has his set. He bid very aggressively for that one and set the tone for the auction. He will no longer be in the market. We know how much the second and third bidders were willing to pay -- less. And there is, after all, a limited universe of buyers. Second, the auction has brought more Porper cups out into the marketplace. As you suggest, once demand is settled and supply increases prices may well drop. In this instance, there was intense -- but very limited -- demand. This is not unusual in the arena of collectibles. The more cups on the market, the less competition to obtain them, the less they will fetch. Moreover, rarity itself is a factor in price...not just in terms of supply and demand but in terms of desirability. If you believe something to be unique, as a collector you might be willing to pay more for it than if you thought it was one of many. If more sets emerge, some of the allure may fade. On the other hand, all this discussion about the quality and desirability of Joe Porper-made apparatus could create even greater demand. Another set could go for even more!

It's been suggested that Joe may again make cups and that this could reduce the value of his past efforts. Perhaps...and perhaps not. If Joe Porper were to make cups that were identical to his past offerings and they were readily available, I would guess that could lessen the demand for his previous products. But what if he makes only a dozen highly prized sets of a different design...sets that retail for over $1000. That could well make his old sets even more collectible.

Of course, auctions are volatile environments. They can have a life of their own. And unfathomably high prices at auction (not just on eBay) are not uncommon. In the final analysis, an object's ultimate value is what someone is willing to pay for it -- no more, no less.

Inflated prices? Want to buy a copy of Cards as Weapons? :D
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 05/27/02 08:58 AM

Members of this forum have the right to express their opinions, and we want them to do that. Their opinions are not, however, facts.
An item's value is based entirely upon what a person is willing to pay for it. No forum member can make statements like, "That was not worth it." That forum member is stating his opinion as if it is a fact. But it is NOT a fact--the real fact is that someone paid X amount for the item, and so that is now its established value.
So, let's refrain from insulting collectors who are paying what they want to (remember, no one is forcing them pay these amounts) for certain items that are of great value to them.
If, on the other hand, someone puts an item on eBay with a ridiculously high first bid or reserve price, and it is NOT met, then educated collectors who understand what the true value of the item might be will chortle among themselves--and on the forum. If the items sells, well, there's no chortling about a succesful auction. Either you've got the money or you don't.
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Postby Michael Edwards » 05/27/02 09:32 AM

Indeed, Richard. In fact, I would suggest that in this instance, the bidders were eminently qualified to assess the value of this item. The five top bidders are all serious and knowledgeable collectors, two of them are noted professional magicians, one is the owner of a magic shop. I have a simple suggestion for those who think an auction item is overpriced: don't bid. ;)
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Postby Jim Riser » 05/27/02 06:22 PM

Auctions are a wonderful place to learn about humanity. It is very interesting to watch the dynamics of an auction in progress (even on ebay). The reasons for bidding and the willingness to pay high dollar amounts are so varied. Some people want to complete a collection. Some want to actually use the item being sold. Some want to have an example of superior craftsmanship. Some want an item because they had one as a kid. The reasons are varied and all valid - and extremely human. Warning: If I see something I want or "need" at an auction, you will have to pay dearly to outbid me :D
As with all bidders, I have my own personal reasons for wanting certain items. You might be surprised to see what I will pay for a piece of machinery - for making magic, of course :eek:
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Postby mehtas » 05/28/02 11:13 AM

I just bought a year old car for less than the price of porper cups ;)
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Postby Pete Biro » 05/28/02 06:09 PM

Yah but the steering wheel is on the wrong side. :eek:
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Postby Terry » 05/29/02 04:58 AM

Yah but the steering wheel is on the wrong side.
It's okay when you drive on the wrong side. :D
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Postby Guest » 05/29/02 02:33 PM

In the summer I tend to drive in the shade.Hey I pay road tax for both sides Im going to use both sides :p
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Postby Guest » 05/29/02 02:34 PM

Topsy see my earlier post. I guess you are just plain extravagent :(
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Postby Guest » 06/09/02 01:06 AM

It seems like a good time to let the cat out of the bag...

I've consumated a deal to exclusively carry Joe Porper's
complete line of magic. The line will only be available on my new web site, www.bobkohlermagic.com.

The line will include both old items and new Porper originals. The Porper cups will once again be released.
They will be available in copper, brass and stainless steel. They will be exactly as before...we thought long and hard trying to improve them, but they are already perfect.

One major change is Joe is not going to make the wands. He only wants the best available and we both agree that Thomas Wayne's wands far surpass anything else we've seen. Thomas is one of the top three custom pool cue artists in the world. Not many of his wands are out there, but his complete line will also be exclusively sold on my site in the near future.

The designs will range from simple and elegant to the most impossible inlay work imaginable. They all screw together like a pool cue with invisible seams.

Our apologies to recent purchasers of Joe's products on e-bay, we didn't know about the bidding until it was over. But it does show the quality of Joe's products.

For further details, pricing, more surprises and availability check out the web site in the coming weeks.

Bob Kohler
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 06/09/02 05:49 PM

Bob, poor Denny is going to be very unhappy! He was making some good bucks selling Porper's card clips! But, I think everyone would rather buy Porper Cups from you rather than on eBay. :)
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