October Issue--with Dan and Dave Buck

Discuss general aspects of Genii.

Postby Bill Wheeler » 09/18/03 08:34 PM

My copy arrived today, and it looks like a good issue. The illustrations by Aimee Reich are striking and the Giorgio Letters may provoke a debate on the forum as well.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/18/03 10:08 PM

I want my Genii.... !!!!!
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Postby Alain Roy » 09/19/03 07:39 AM

The article about the twins struck me because the design was so different from the rest of Genii. The sans-serif font, the color illustrations, and the hip layout all combined to give a very different feel. It was an interesting change--thanks.

This morning, I read Mr. Biro's description of FISM. I was struck that he said that the Nocturnal Trio (Burger, Maven, and Lenart) were really good and got raves from many people, while the article from the German magazine said it was rather so-so, and the whole audience didn't really appreciate it. Different reviews aren't surprising, but it sounds like they had different impressions of what large groups of people thought. I guess I'll have to see the show for myself sometime and decide. When are they coming to Madison, Wisconsin?

Overall, a good issue of Genii.

-alain
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/19/03 11:09 AM

The Nocturnal Trio performed their show three times. Not all the shows were identical in audience response. It's possible that Wittus Witt saw a different show than Biro. It's also possible that Wittus Witt just didn't like what he saw ... he doesn't like a lot of what he sees (but you could've figured that out yourself from reading his review of FISM).
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 09/19/03 11:43 AM

Having done my share of reviewing, I was never satisfied with the outcome of my INTERPRETATIVE writing. I did, however, try to guage the audience's responses (plural)and then report on THAT, not my own refractions of what apparently happened. This was difficult. I even polled many people after shows. Nevertheless, one's bias always seem to infiltrate one's supposed objectivity.

Bottom line: Consider the sources.

Onward...
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Postby Guest » 09/19/03 09:57 PM

I have to ask! Why the Bucks on the front cover? The Bucks just seem dimished in recent times by many other "superflourishers" for lack of better term. They are decent magicians and can flourish, but what used to make them sparkle has in my mind faded. I feel that there are many other and much more qualified and respected magicians that I would of loved to have seen on the cover! There are plenty of VERY respectable and amazing magicians that have yet to grace the front of this most respected magazine.

Very dissappointed
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/20/03 07:33 AM

The thing that, to me, differentiates Dan and Dave Buck from the other "superflourishers" (as you put it) is the way the flourishes and juggling (that's not a putdown--there's simply no other word for it) are integrated into some great magic.
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/20/03 09:57 AM

When I talked to Maven about their performance at FISM he did comment on how it didn't go the same every time.

I beleive they had a problem, initially, with the lack of time given to set up and/or rehearse.

Those of you that do get a chance to see the act will see some very clever, creative thinking and different ways to present some very simple tricks.

I loved the trick with the old arrow that changes direction when you turn it over.

As it pointed to Max, he would speak, then Tina turned it over and it pointed to Eugene and he would speak, etc. etc.

Lots of thought and a complete, scripted act, not just a bunch of tricks thrown together.

Hey, I see it through eyes of a Hungarian, Wittus through the eyes of a German.
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 09/20/03 01:25 PM

There are two threads coexisting here...

Let me address the other one...

Re COVER coverage: Of course there are other deserving and respected magicians that warrant covers. There are also other flash-and-filigree flourishers "out there," including some that were doing their fancy stuff before the Buck Twins, Brian Tudor, and the rest; however, the Buck Twins ignited several "flash points" and the applications in the current GENII are dramatically representative. Add Chris Kenner to the project and you get a distinctive, trendy center fold.

Why should this be a disappointment?

Perhaps too this is an opportune time for Forum Participants to voice their desires? Who would you like on future covers?

Onward,

JR
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/20/03 03:56 PM

Me? :whack:
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Postby Carl Mercurio » 09/20/03 07:06 PM

Simon Lovell (I'm biased, he's a pal, but surely deserving...)
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Postby Guest » 09/20/03 10:34 PM

If Simon hasn't already graced the cover, then he should! Simon is the man!

As far as pure flourishers go, Jerry Cestkowski and De'vo vom Schattenreich are the best out there! Not to mention how unique they both are and what they have accomplished. They have no equal in what they do.

What about Brian Tudor or TG Murphy for well mixed flourishes and magic? The Buck Twins obviously borrowed many of their moves and influence in "their" style.

Who do you have plans for in the future? Jon R needs to be in more magazines! You are the BEST writer! I love your articles and magic! And put him on the cover every other month.LOL

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Postby Dustin Stinett » 09/20/03 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Carl Mercurio:
Simon Lovell (I'm biased, he's a pal, but surely deserving...)
Your Pal, yes, but have you shared a moment of bondage with him?

I have, and it was one of the best times I've ever had (and that was before the drinks)!

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(Would very much like to see Simon on the cover as well.)
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Postby Alain Roy » 09/21/03 12:15 PM

I don't care who graces the cover as much as I care who has an in-depth story written about them. I guess they're usually the same though.

I enjoyed the article about the Buck Twins, but I enjoyed it less than some of the other in-depth stories I've read. This is not a slam, they simply have some outstanding competition. I think the in-depth stories that I have enjoyed the most are about people that have a lot more to share than just the magic tricks. I got the feeling that there wasn't that much to say about the Buck Twins--other than a brief introduction and a short bio, it was a well-done in-depth Magicana section.

I just glanced at a few of my favorite Genii issues. Each one had an in-depth article about a person (Dai Vernon, Ross Bertram, Thomas Solomon) that presented interesting stories from the person's life, that helped me understand why the person was interesting as a person, and gave me some insight into their magic. These were combined with a selection of moves or effects from the person's repertoire. It is this combination that makes the article interesting for me. I suspect that a well-done article like this also takes considerable time and effort, which I appreciate. I suppose it cannot happen every month.

I don't know which people I should learn more about in magic--if I did, then maybe I would already know enough about them, and not need Genii. But I appreciate the in-depth articles that are not completely slanted towards the magic, nor towards the non-magic, but present an interesting, in-depth combination.

That said, I suspect I would enjoy learning more about Bobo, Tarbell, and Jay Marshall.

-alain
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Postby Steve Bryant » 09/21/03 02:20 PM

Alain,

Try to hit up Richard for the July 1996 issue of Genii. Max Maven wrote a fantastic 13-page cover story on Jay Marshall. Great reading.
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Postby Steve V » 09/21/03 02:54 PM

I will not buy another Genii until Simon has a cover!
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Postby Guest » 09/21/03 11:19 PM

YOU SAID:
As far as pure flourishers go, Jerry Cestkowski and De'vo vom Schattenreich are the best out there! Not to mention how unique they both are and what they have accomplished. They have no equal in what they do.

What about Brian Tudor or TG Murphy for well mixed flourishes and magic? The Buck Twins obviously borrowed many of their moves and influence in "their" style.

I SAY:
I dont do pure flourishes I do Magic!
--------I would have to disagree. Sure Devo and Jerry are great, I admire their work and what they are doing, however. I feel that many people try to compare me with them. How could you, I dont even come close, but I bet if they were my age I would kick their ass, and without breaking a sweat. Jerry and Devo are grown men, who do FLOURISHES (so they say) as a profession Im a freshman college student who does MAGIC as a hobby.

-------Second of all, my flourishes are integrated into my magic. Devo wants nothing to do with the subject; he hates magicians (sometimes I dont blame him). Jerry used to be a cool guy (he might still be). I was once email-friends with him then something happened and BAM the next thing you know the superhandz and handlordz are the most popular thing going. I was banned from the site before it was known. You would have to ask them why. But I think theyre just jealous as they realized theyre competing with a kid. If I were them, Id be pissed too.

Not to mention how unique they both are and what they have accomplished.
--------Thats a pretty bold statement. Do you think you can back it up with proof?
I mean, what have they accomplished thats so great? A website, a few videos, a book (full of outdated card manipulation, that to my knowledge, no one uses). Thats about it. If Im wrong please inform me. No doubt about it though, they both are unique and very creative. But so am I, otherwise I wouldnt be on the cover on Genii Magazine. Also, from the list above, one could easily say the same about me, and lots more. So to fully understand your statement I would like to know what makes them so great and me not?

To answer your other question regarding Tudor and Murphy. Yes, I was very much influenced by Brian Tudor. In my eye he was the first to really get this flourish movement up and going. As for TG Murphy No, he did NOT influence me, Ive never even meet the guy, I hope someday I do though. I got into his material later on, when I had already developed my own style. Sure I use his stuff, but isnt that the point of a magic book to learn and perform and be influenced by. Besides even if I did evolve from TG, whats wrong with that? After all his book is called IMAGICATION which, if you own a copy, will know that it means the synthesis of applied imagination in correlation to the art of magic and thats exactly what I and every other magician has done and are doing.

In no way do I mean to be a smart ass. Im not saying Im better in any way, I have a style and they have a style were two different species.

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Postby Guest » 09/22/03 11:38 AM

We are getting off track, the only manipulation I care about is manipulating Mr. Kaufman into putting Simon on the cover and running an extended article on his facinating life.

As for the card manip guys I have a nitrogen purge cabnet at work should De'vo (come on dude, we know your real name is Norman) tire of doing underwater nonsense. As for the Bucks, they seemed like nice young men when I ran into them at A1 a couple years ago and ol' JB likes 'em.
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Postby Carl Mercurio » 09/22/03 02:15 PM

Dustin,

Haven't done the "bondage" thing yet with Simon. But I'll see him tonight at Monday Night Magic, so perhaps after a few drinks....
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Postby Temperance » 09/22/03 03:12 PM

How about a Roy Walton issue?

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Postby Dave Shepherd » 09/22/03 05:01 PM

I'm not much of a "flourish monkey" myself, but I found the Bucks' material quite nice. It is a tad "flippier" than I normally do, but I began working on the Ace production and the Tivo Transpo right away. Very visual stuff.

Let me second Alain Roy's vote for either J.B. Bobo or Harlan Tarbell as a cover subject--two very important 20th century magical generalists, best known for their very important books.
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Postby Guest » 09/22/03 05:03 PM

LOL, well there the Bucks go showing their immaturity. It's obvious that they feel threatend by the Superhandz/Handlordz guys, and they should. Ever since they hit the scene, they have become extremely popular and the Bucks with a couple of others seemed to fade into the background. It is ok to be upset at their popularity, and the fact that you don't get as much attention anymore. I think it is perfectly natural to lash out at those better than you. And I really don't think they are worried about you in the least.lol. I have read about some of their large projects they are currently working on...They have larger and more important things on their mind.

Age doesn't matter, De'vo's 7 and 10 year old sons has created more flourishes than the Buck Twins or other teen magicians and is putting out a fairly large book on their creations in the near future.

I think the problem is that the Buck Twins aren't even recognized by the pro-flourishers because of their lack of creativity and their constant "borrowing" of other people's material. This upsets the Buck twins (looking back at the immature post) and they lash out.

As far as dissing Jerry Cestkowski's Encyclopedia of Playing Card Flourishes, that is ashame. The book has TONS of NEW and unique flourishes within it's walls even recognized by Jon R. Jealousy doesn't accomplish anything.

I hope I represented the other party correctly, as they would never come on a magic forum.

But with all that said: Funny your latched on to De'vo and Jerry, and completely missed everything else. I think that their are more deserving people to grace the cover... I still think Simon L. is the MAN! Doesn't matter if you scream and holler, I will still stick with Simon!

Also BOBO should definately be on a cover! His book of modern coin magic has touched so many people over the years. I still read this book from time to time. GREAT call!

Mark
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Postby Dave Egleston » 09/22/03 05:09 PM

Thanks Mr Kaufman,

This magazine will go right in between issue
9 and issue 11 coming out next month.

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/22/03 08:14 PM

Dave, I don't understand your post. Do I want to?
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Postby Steve V » 09/22/03 08:51 PM

Well, Oct. is the 10th month so the September issue would be issue #9 of 2003 and the November will be issue #11. Thus when one places their magazines in a holder, what I call a cardboard box, then the #10 would be placed between the #9 and #10.
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Postby Guest » 09/22/03 10:32 PM

A message for Mr. Leeman

Our recent posts seem to be getting more personal then what this board is designed for, therefore if you have issues with me that you feel you must resolve please feel free to contact me at danielmbuck@aol.com and not on this board. In other words I don't think it would be appropriate and or considerate to the members of this board to listen to us bag each other, as it seems that's what you like doing.

Also, someone mentioned the lack of irresponsibility regarding the "gaylordz" comment. For that I'm sorry, I shouldnt have said that, but hey, after all I'm a kid and we do tend to say things we don't mean.

With that I leave you with a quote, which I think sums things up pretty well.

Here I am noble; I am boyar. The common people know me, and I am master. But a stranger in a strange land, he is no one; men know him not and to know not is to care not for.

-Bram Stokers DRACULA

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Postby Pete McCabe » 09/22/03 10:55 PM

Why don't we get Bobo on the cover, and have Magicana filled with current magicians' updates (variations, etc.) of tricks from MCM. Speaking Volumes can contain a trick somebody uses from the book, and we can make MCM the forum book of the month.

I also think it would be fascinating to hear Jamy Ian Swiss do a review of MCM as though it were a new book. This could make a great addition to his column; every month include a review of a classic of magic. If nothing else it would provide a measuring stick against which we can compare the current crop.
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Postby Dustin Stinett » 09/22/03 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:
...and we can make MCM the forum book of the month.
What's this "we" stuff?!?
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Postby Brad Henderson » 09/23/03 12:11 AM

There is such a thing as a professional flourishman?

What kind of venue would one work and exactly how would the show differ from that of a juggler, save for the objects manipulated?

Honest questions. This is an area new to me.
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Postby Guest » 09/23/03 03:54 AM

Everyone should chill a little, I think this article is not just about Dan and Dave it is also about the youth in magic and how it is changing. And unless I am crazy change is a good thing. I was hoping that people would see their article as a fun colorful stylish piece that could do justice to what they are doing for magic. Putting some fun back into it!

By the way all of you that are calling them flourish guys most likely don't know Dan and Dave or have spent no real time watching them. These are some very talented and extremely knowledgable guys. Do not underestimate them. I have seen them on many occasions fool some of the best minds in magic with their effects, not their flourishes.

Chris Kenner

As for Dan and Dave being on the cover, Richard is no fool, just because they are young or not icons in magic just yet does not mean they should not get a chance to showcase their work.
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Postby Randy DiMarco » 09/23/03 05:49 AM

There is such a thing as a professional flourishman?

What kind of venue would one work and exactly how would the show differ from that of a juggler, save for the objects manipulated?
The venue for a professional flourishman seems to be internet movies.
-----
Re: the Buck Twins - In my opinion they do flourishy magic, but to them the magic is more important than the flourish.
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Postby Yves Tourigny » 09/23/03 07:26 AM

I thought I might get more responses if I post this here.
_________________________________________________

Taking Jon's comment as a cue, I will say that, among many others, one person I would like to see on the cover as well as in the Magicana section is Bill Goodwin. We know precious little about this man and he is fascinating to me ( I am sure I am not alone) . There was a small article about him in the Magic a couple of years ago and it was not very satisfying.
Many others are on my personnal list for a cover ( hey I have a right to dream lol): Goeff Latta, Jon Townsend, Kostya Kimlat ( I met him at the last Tannens Jubilee and he was fantastic), Paul Cummins, Chris Kenner and so many others. I can certainly guide you Richard in that way. ;)
_________________________________________________

Regarding the Buck brothers. I do not understand what is this feud about.( hope I use the word "feud" in the right way). Why does it have to be this " I am holier then thou" attitude toward the Buck Bros from the De'vo fans? This is beyond me...
As of me I have read and watch much of their materials and while we can recognize most of their influences, what I like is their combinations of known and not so well known stuff which is original and fresh. Seing them in action reminds me of a show of fireworks. It has that kind of appeal to me. What I have seen so far from De'vo and Jerry is very original and appealling too. I am sure there is a place for all of them in our small universe.

Sincerely,

Yves :p
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Postby Lisa Cousins » 09/23/03 09:45 AM

Hi, Dan,

It was nice meeting you at SAM. Congratulations to you and Dave on your Genii cover.

Some of what you are getting here is the "Boy Bands Suck" reaction that people will have when very young persons reach high levels in life. People assume that there must have been "handlers" and so forth to move them along the path, as youths lack the experience to successfully navigate professional mazes. This renders their accomplishment less "real" to some minds. But young girls need heart-throbs, and magic needs "young turks," so - whatever it takes to make those things happen, happens.

Reaching such a high accolade as the cover of Genii Magazine at age 18 also puts you at risk for the "standing too soon" phenomenon. What if a year from now you and Dave some do some great deed that enriches magic forever? You've collected your applause before the fruit was really ripe.

And sadly, any type of success, at any age, will without fail draw envy. Are you familiar with the Uncle Remus story about the tar-baby, where Brer Rabbit is goaded into fighting with an "adversary" made out of tar, and he ends up stuck to the thing? (For further details, please ride Splash Mountain.) Envy is a tar-baby, and if you take a swing at it, you're just gonna get that stuff all over you. Ignore the roar, focus on what's next, and do that thing.

With all good wishes for your continued success,

Lisa Cousins
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Postby Pete Biro » 09/23/03 11:50 AM

Best thing all this fuss has created...

A MESSAGE FROM KENNER...

Nobody has congratulated Kenner on a great article and what amazingly, wonderful, fantastic photos he made for the story.

Keep swingin' dood... :whack:

And don't tip the last coin... EVER :p
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Postby John Bodine » 09/23/03 12:07 PM

I'll just add that I found the design and layout of the Dan and Dave article excellent and refreshing. The illustrations were marvelous, and the descriptions well written, detailed yet not too wordy.

Congratulations Dan and Dave, you should be proud.

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Postby Guest » 09/23/03 12:16 PM

John, they deleted my post where I said you were a good guy and that the Bucks were nice kids when I ran into them a few years ago. I won't be seeing the article since I'm not reading Genii again until Simon has a cover, or I get a cover, which ever comes first.
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Postby Guest » 09/23/03 12:54 PM

I second the raevs for the graphic design and photos. Who figured that Richard would allow such a thing?
Keep up the great work.

And Mr. Buck: You are 18 years old. You cannot use the "I'm just a kid" excuse for too much longer.

HR
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Postby Guest » 09/23/03 01:35 PM

This Type of slander makes me sick! The magic Family is a fraternity of Men and Women that support help and further advance the Art of Magic.

Kenner put it best "And unless I am crazy change is a good thing."
What is magic without change? Well I will tell you....It is a dieing Art.
Sadly, People would rather go see a movie full of special effects, rather than support live performance art. Now you have to extremely creative and clever Guys who make magic Fun, Visual and Amazing; and all people can do is attack them.

It's bad enough that Laymen associate magicians with there Uncle Vern who did the "21 Card Trick"! But unleash these two guys on some laymen and who knows, you might just have a few people who will look at Magic and "Magicians" in a new way.

I have met Dan and Dave on a few occasions and they were Pleasant and eager to show there chops to anyone, I admire that.

To sum it all up:
"Creativity is inventing, experimenting, growing, taking risks, breaking rules, making mistakes, and having fun."- Mary Lou Cook

So to Dan and Dave I say this:
"Thank you, for furthering our art, it is people like you that continue to help magic grow, evolve and entertain!"

-Rick Castro

www.made2amaze.com
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Postby Kendrix » 09/23/03 01:47 PM

Richard: What was the thought process for "Cutting" their heads off on the cover? Does that imply what I think it does?
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Postby Josh Mandel » 09/23/03 01:59 PM

I'm surprised more mention wasn't made of the Buck twins' apparent forays into mentalism.

After all, they listed "The Matrix Trilogy" among their favorite films, and as far as I know, there have only been two Matrix films released. Either they're precognitive and somehow already KNOW that the third movie is one of the best they've ever seen, or they got an advance showing.

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