Old Sharper Books

Discuss the historical aspects of magic, including memories, or favorite stories.

Postby Stepanov » 02/12/05 09:57 PM

I work on oldest Russian book about card sharpers. This book was published on 1807 an became very much popular in my country. Inside you can find Charlier Cut and One Hand Second Deal.
The question is that this book was translation from French. I need names and authors of French books of that period. Who can help me?

Oleg Stepanov. Better answered on e-mail - olegstepanov@mail.ru , because I am not often here.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 02/13/05 08:56 PM

Christian Fechner's 1994 BIBLIOGRAPHIE DE LA PRESTIDITATION FRANCAISE ET DES ARTS ANNEXES (Bibliography of Conjuring and Allied Arts), lists several titles on cheating predating the Russian text. Looking for one in close proximity, a good candidate would be J. F. Tissot's RUSES DES FILOUS DEVOILEES ETC (the title given is much longer!), which Fechner lists in a second edition, published in Paris in 1804, 214 pages. Does anyone on the forum have access to a copy to compare with the Russian text? Interesting that it contains the Charlier cut. Charlier was reportedly French (he had, at least, spent much time there. Robert-Houdin was said to have taken lessons from him!). Hope we can get more information on this. I'll send a private email to Oleg.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 02/13/05 09:18 PM

Incidentally, Oleg's translation of Erdnase into Russian is available free online. Here's how
THE EXPERT AT THE CARD TABLE
S. W. Erdnase
looks in Russian:

Эксперт за Карточным Столом
С. В. Эрднайзе

Here's a link to the table of contents and introductory essay about the book's mysterious author:
Erdnase in Russian
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Postby John Bodine » 02/15/05 02:55 PM

Hmm, for those of us who speak no Russian, would anyone care to translate the comments about the mysterious author into English? Unfortunately, Google Languages doesn't include translation from Russian, perhaps I'll have to find some other service...

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Postby Richard Hatch » 02/15/05 08:40 PM

John, I asked Oleg about this and he said it was a translation of the article on this topic found online here
Ancestry.com Erdnase article
It is a summary of the WALL STREET JOURNAL coverage from a few years back.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/16/05 11:51 AM

Shame on me again !!!
I have seen the book...
I have read the explanation...
IT IS the so-call CHARLIER CUT !!!
Poorly described but there is no doubt.
And do you know that I have done ?
I forgot to note the name of the book and didn't make photocopie.
Nevertheless, I propose two books
Les mistres du pharaon dvoils by anonymous - 1803
and
Les ruses des filous dvoiles by Tissot (Your proposition, Richard) - 1904
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Postby Richard Hatch » 02/16/05 10:15 PM

Philippe, Oleg says the Russian book is only 96 pages, is that closer in size to Les mistres du pharaon dvoils by anonymous - 1803?
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/17/05 12:24 PM

Sorry, Richard.
There is more than one year that I have seen this book.
I don't remember his format.
Perhaps Jacques Voignier or Christian Fechner knows something more about this book.
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Postby Stepanov » 02/18/05 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
IT IS the so-call CHARLIER CUT !!!
Poorly described but there is no doubt.
And do you know that I have done ?
I forgot to note the name of the book and didn't make photocopie.
Uf. Bad boy. History not forgive you. :-))))
Please. If in future you can made photocopie... Do not forget Second Deal by One Hand. Rober-Houdin do not recognise value of this sleight and on his book there are no such things.

Nevertheless, I propose two books
Les mistres du pharaon dvoils by anonymous - 1803
Wery much close. I did not translate name, but it was realy about Faro game - Bank like it calls on Russian.
For me this is very much important book. On many reasons. There are first time use word "volte" - "the pass" on English. Looks like from this book historically we have problems with word "pass" on Russian. Standard translation "volte" has only sharpers meaning. We have no tharslation for "pass" on cups and balls aspect, like on linking rings. We have only sharpers card meaning. When on 1877 was translated Hoffman's "Modern Magic" for card pass was used "volte" and this deep cheating term became normal word for children. But on book what I search there are one chapter which translated on Russian "Volte or Perevertysh (Reversing)". I want to see on original - how it was written. If something like "sauter la coupe" or "passe la coupe" it means on Russia Volte was known before this book and translator give the name of thing what he know before, but... if on original used word "volte" it means we first hear about this thing from this book and Volte was cheaters name of sauter la coup in French.
Very much thanks for this information.
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Postby Stepanov » 02/18/05 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Richard Hatch:
Charlier was reportedly French (he had, at least, spent much time there. Robert-Houdin was said to have taken lessons from him!).
I am very much apologize. Looks like you mean not Robert-Houdin, but Professor Hoffmann. On translating of "Les Secrets de la Prestidigitation et de la Magie" he two times mean about Charlier. But... Do not forget - it was words of "Professor Hoffmann" not Lewis Angelo. :-))) After book "Modern Magic" some of peoples was surprized why someone German teach magic if all information taken from French books. For this reason appearance of French Charlier who was "teacher" of Hoffman was at necessary time. Klimax hapend on "More Magic", where all new sleights was "invented" by Professor Charlier (Yes, Hoffmann calls him Professor on "The Secrets of Conjuring and Magic"). But... If we watch more closely on that time and recall that some years before "More Magic" Edwin Sachs wrote "Sleight of hand" where explain Charlier Cut on 3 diagrams and this book was so popular than Lewis put a lot of information to his "More Magic"... If we recall that on same time, when was popular Hermann first five chapters of Modern Magic was published like "Hermann's Card Magic"... if we recall thar Lewis wrote books for children... if we recall thar on "More Magic" he give idea that Charlier was M.Ledoyen from children book "Conjuror Dick"... if we recall that Great Charlier newer appeared on next books... someone can get conclusion that on Lewis time not many seriously magician suppose Charlier was real man... :-)))
Of course this is only supposition... :-) But, like mathematician say "This is strange, but I did not see prowing this is not correct."

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Apologise for bad English.
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Postby Richard Hatch » 02/18/05 10:16 PM

Charlier, who may have been Russian, but seems to have come to England by way of France, definitely existed, and did give lessons to Hoffmann and Charles Bertram, among others. But Charlier also claimed to have tutored Robert-Houdin in card sleights. Robert-Houdin does talk about someone like Charlier in his CARD SHARPING book, though that may be a coincidence.
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Postby Stepanov » 02/22/05 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Richard Hatch:
Charlier, who may have been Russian, but seems to have come to England by way of France, definitely exhisted, and did give lessons to Hoffmann and Charles Bertram, among others. But Charlier also claimed to have tutored Robert-Houdin in card sleights. Robert-Houdin does talk about someone like Charlier in his CARD SHARPING book, though that may be a coincidence.
Apologize. Do you mean German Elias Hausheer? Or "gambler Raymond" who was invented by Robert-Houdin, finished his life rich in Marais,looks like on 15 years older than Robert-Houdin (A GREEK TAKEN IN THE FACT: Houdin - 25, Raumon - 40), was supposedly 100 years old on 1890, when was published "More magic"? Or you means someone who was friend of Raymond and newer "meet" with Robert-Houdin?
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Postby Richard Hatch » 02/23/05 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Stepanov Oleg:
Do you mean German Elias Hausheer? Or "gambler Raymond" who was invented by Robert-Houdin, finished his life rich in Marais,looks like on 15 years older than Robert-Houdin (A GREEK TAKEN IN THE FACT: Houdin - 25, Raumon - 40), was supposedly 100 years old on 1890, when was published "More magic"?
Hausheer is a possibility, though I expect he would also have been older than Charlier. Robert-Houdin describes him as "German" and Charlier told his friend and student Marion Spielmann that he was "positively" Alsatian, which is, of course, a German speaking region (now part of France). However, part of Charlier's mystique is his mysterious background: Hoffman described him as "Polish" and another Charlier student, Samuel Heilbut, said that he was "undoubtedly" Russian and, indeed, the illegitimate son of Czar Nicholas! Both Spielmann (in a manuscript on card magic) and Hoffmann (in a footnote to his translation of Robert-Houdin's SECRETS OF CONJURING AND MAGIC) say that Charlier "claims to have numbered the great Robert-Houdin himself among his pupils." After recounting the exposode of his visit to Hausheer, Robert-Houdin says he "employed a collector, so to speak, of card-sharping tricks. A young man, who had been recommended to me for that purpose, and who, though himself honest enough, spent the greater part of his time in taverns and low-gaming houses, undertook to obtain information for me..." I wonder if that might not have been Charlier?
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Postby Marco Pusterla » 02/23/05 02:06 AM

Hi, everybody!
I'm away from my library at the moment, but a very interesting chapter on Charlier, based on Charles Bertam's recollections and on further research, is in Edwin Dawes' book on Charles Bertram ("Charles Bertam: The Court Conjurer") published by Richard Kaufman some years back.

At the moment, I cannot remember what nationality prof. Dawes attributes to Charlier, perhaps somebody close to the book may investivate :(

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Postby magicam » 02/23/05 02:27 AM

Hi Marco! Try this link for some discussion of Charlier in the context of Erdnase. All the best, Clay

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ ... p=7#000246
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Postby Richard Hatch » 02/23/05 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Marco Pusterla:
At the moment, I cannot remember what nationality prof. Dawes attributes to Charlier, perhaps somebody close to the book may investivate .
Dr. Dawes gives the Russian and Alsatian references above. His chapter on Charlier is excellent, as is the more extensive one by Bert Pratt added to the Miracle Factory edition of S. W. Clarke's ANNALS OF CONJURING.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/23/05 11:16 AM

In 1911, in The Magic Wand, there are articles about Charlier. Here is a reproduction of a letter send by Charlier

HONNORD SIR,

Please examin attentively the 32 cards. A pack of a most consumated combination precision in the preparation.
I will provaidet some stamp as I includ the specimen of the pack of cards of Robert de Diable. I offer you one genuine French pack of cards manufacturet 1840 in the reign of Louis Phillipe roi, this pack is all ready with the punktuation, etc

The humble maker
trust to your generosity
I am with profound respect,
CHARLIER,

(Necromancier labor pacciencia (sic) omnium vincet.)

Feb. 16th 1882

As said Charles Bertram in his book Isn't It Wonderful ? Charlier used some french expressions when he spoke, like carte instead of card, fais le jeu, eh bien, tour instead of trick.
It's not a proof that he was french as french language was the diplomatic language in his century.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 02/23/05 01:55 PM

re: "Volte"

"Volte" is the term used by Hofzinser and Conradi for "pass", although it seems like a odd word to use because etymologically it means "turning over" (like the Russian "perevertysh" mentioned above) and doesn't really describe the action. The French "sauter la coupe" is strangely similar to the gambling term "hopping the cut" (sauter = to jump).

re: Charlier

There's an interesting section on Charlier in Will Dexter's "Secrets of the Conjurer's Craft" (1950s?), where he's named one of the "Four Aces of Card Magic" along with Hofzinser, Ralph Hull and Hugard. It's several pages long so I can't repeat it all, and maybe the book is well known anyway, but Dexter mentions things such as:
- Herbert Pratt's research
- Charlier's acquaintance with Prof. Hoffmann and Charles Bertram
- a drawing of Charlier
- that he was very skilful with cards and may have been a professional gambler/cheat
- theories that he was French, Polish, Russian, Greek, Turkish, Italian, German or Jewish and spoke 9 or 10 languages
- possible real name Arelier (French), Ahasuerus (Jewish) or St. Jean ("that mysterious conjurer who turned up in San Francisco")

Incidentally - nothing to do with Charlier -Dexter also says that Hofzinser invented the "Hofzinser Pass", with no mention of Herrmann.

For a book written for the general public, it's got some surprising information in it.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/23/05 02:23 PM

The Drauwing of Charlier is in the Magic Wand.

I would like to put it here but I don't know how to do.

Any tip ?
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Postby Marco Pusterla » 02/24/05 08:51 AM

Ok, it seems the thread is drifting away from the original post and moving toward Charlier, so.....

In The Magic Circle's museum, in the "Inner Sanctum" area (only accessible to members and bona-fide magicians), there is a deck of marked cards which belonged to Charlier. I think the deck arrived in The Magic Circle's collection via the C. Bertram's estate, but don't shot if I'm wrong.

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Postby Stepanov » 02/25/05 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Richard Hatch:
Both Spielmann (in a manuscript on card magic) and Hoffmann (in a footnote to his translation of Robert-Houdin's SECRETS OF CONJURING AND MAGIC) say that Charlier "claims to have numbered the great Robert-Houdin himself among his pupils."
Brrr. Strange, how I miss it... Thanks. I read this many times but... I still not complete translate this book...


After recounting the exposode of his visit to Hausheer, Robert-Houdin says he "employed a collector, so to speak, of card-sharping tricks. A young man, who had been recommended to me for that purpose, and who, though himself honest enough, spent the greater part of his time in taverns and low-gaming houses, undertook to obtain information for me..." I wonder if that might not have been Charlier?
I use another translation.
"I employed, as my agent, a young man whom I knew to be respectable enough, though much of his time was passed in "estaminets" and gaming-houses, and I paid handsomely for each new trick that he brought me."
I wonder what was really written on French book. Any case for me this is not proving. Robert-Houdin was gentleman. How gentleman can explain his knowledge if he want close information that all was on previous French books, and information about visit of gaming-houses not good for him? He should write somebody help him. Probably this is only one idea of appearing young man on book.
Only probably!!! Just idea. Can be million of such ideas. Your idea very good too.
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Postby Stepanov » 02/25/05 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Edwin Corrie:
re: "Volte"
"Volte" is the term used by Hofzinser and Conradi for "pass", although it seems like a odd word to use because etymologically it means "turning over" (like the Russian "perevertysh" mentioned above) and doesn't really describe the action. The French "sauter la coupe" is strangely similar to the gambling term "hopping the cut" (sauter = to jump).
Thanks. I hear on German used volte. Any case Russian book of 1807 was before Hofzinser and Conradi.
But what about etymology? We suppose this is Italian word. And means something rolling... Is not it?
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Postby Stepanov » 02/25/05 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
The Drauwing of Charlier is in the Magic Wand.
Is it same picture?
http://users.lk.net/~stepanov/magic/kartash1/004.html
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/25/05 11:19 PM

Yes, it is.

The term "sauter la coupe" comes from gambling !

In this case, the verb "sauter" means "Nullify"
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 02/26/05 05:58 AM

Originally posted by Stepanov Oleg:
Originally posted by Edwin Corrie:
[b] re: "Volte"
"Volte" is the term used by Hofzinser and Conradi for "pass", although it seems like a odd word to use because etymologically it means "turning over" (like the Russian "perevertysh" mentioned above) and doesn't really describe the action. The French "sauter la coupe" is strangely similar to the gambling term "hopping the cut" (sauter = to jump).
Thanks. I hear on German used volte. Any case Russian book of 1807 was before Hofzinser and Conradi.
But what about etymology? We suppose this is Italian word. And means something rolling... Is not it?
Oleg Stepanov [/b]
"Voltare" (also "volgere") is Italian for "turn", from the Latin "volutare" for "roll around", which is the frequentative form of "to turn". The action of the Pass is in fact more like that of one half "rolling around" the other than actually turning over.

According to Gaultier's "Magic without Apparatus" the two-handed pass and one-handed pass ("with the thumb on the side" - as in the Charlier cut) were described in Decremps' "Testament de Jrme Sharp" around 1790.

Thanks Philippe - I didn't know about "nullify" as a meaning for "sauter".
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/26/05 07:37 AM

Sorry, but Gaultier write page 17 (2nd edition, 1980, Lee Jacobs Productions), number 11 : to make the pass with both hands and to make the pass with one hand. This regarding Nouvelles Rcrations Mathmatiques et Physiques (1740) by Guyot. Therefore before Decremps.
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Postby Stepanov » 02/26/05 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
This regarding Nouvelles Rcrations Mathmatiques et Physiques (1740) by Guyot. Therefore before Decremps.
Apologize. Sure Guyot was before Decremps. But year...
On "The Invisible Pass" 1946 Hugard and Braue wtitten 1799 for Guyot, and mr. Richard Kaufman repeated it on his "On The Pass". But on "The Royal Road to Card Magic" - 1769.
At http://cnum.cnam.fr/CGI/fpage.cgi?8SAR1 ... 399/29/372 we can see front page of Guot 1799. NOUVELLE EDITION. So 1799 really not first date, but what real? I remember how find on Internet link where was written about sold of first edition by 1769... What sure about 1740?
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Postby Philippe Billot » 02/27/05 12:45 AM

Hi, Stepanov

I know that you think !

You think it's the same story like Ozanam.
Ozanam wrote his book Rcrations Mathmatiques et Physiques in 1693 end it's only in 1720 that Grandin added "Les Tours de Gibecires".

BUT even Gaultier (who didn't quote this story)
wrote page 14, speaking about Ozanam, "There are hardly a dozen tricks which he (Carlo Antonio) did not glean from Ozanam and we find nearly all of these in Guyot (FROM WHOM ANTONIO ALSO BORROWED)..."

And Carlo Antonio wrote his book The Treasury of Games in 1759.

Therefore, Guyot included Sleight of hand and tricks in his first edition. 1799 IS JUST THE LAST EDITION.

Personally, it's this edition I possess but my friend Philippe Saint Laurent, an historian of magic in France, have an earlier edition and Fanch Guillemin, another historian of magic, have ANOTHER edition which is not exactly the same, but both have the same magic.

Also, don't forget that Guyot died in 1786, the same year Decremps edited Testament de Jerome Sharp.
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Postby Bill Palmer » 02/27/05 02:36 AM

In looking for German words for the pass, I have found the following: Volte is used by Fischer in das Wunderbuch der Zauberkunst, Zmeck in Handbuch der Magie and Wedler in Wrterbuch der Zauberkunst. However, Fischer also offers the term "Kartenumschlag" (sudden card change) as an alternate, while Wedler offers the term "Pass" or "Pa" as an alternate.

This may be a reflection of the times. Fischer's book was written in 1929, at a time when the French may not have been quite as popular in Vienna as in other times. Zmeck was writing from East Germany, where any trace of American or British influence might have drawn more than just a raised eyebrow. Wedler was writing from West Germany in 1990. By then, a very large percentage of German magicians had learned to read English simply to have the wide range of material published in that language available to them.
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Postby Guest » 02/27/05 04:05 AM

Bill, *Volte* is the correct word ever since many years.
The one you mentioned, *Kartenumschlag* actually is one I once did read of, but that goes back to VERY old literature!
Even back to the days before Conradi-Horster!

Somehow I suppose, it is a bad *try* to convert the word *pass* to a suitable german meaning, but I also think, it is many, many years back this word was invented and certainly NEVER is used these days..

I assure you, *Volte* is what each and every magician does aknowledge and understands..it goes MANY years back..
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Postby Stepanov » 02/28/05 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
Hi, Stepanov
I know that you think !
Dear Mr. Philippe Billot.
Thanks for your supposing about my high intellect and high informing. Looks like I understand what you means. Sorry. I do not know who was Ozanam. :-) My question more easy.
I see on mr. Christoph Wasshuber site information about first book where was mentioned pass. I see date not 1769. But on Internet I find page where was writen "1769 - first edition". I send this information to him and he change date. Now I read you write 1740. I am very very much apologize. On Internet I usualy find not correct dates. For me this is very much strange. I only ask - are you sure about 1740? Or you wrote something like "near from 1740"? If you sure I should write to mr. Wasshuber, inform him and apologize about not correct information.
Apologize again. You wrote about your friends who are historician of magic in France. Just now I translate Robert-Houdin books (first time for Russia!!!). But from English sources. Can I ask some of questions from your friends or from you? Questions so technician I afraide it will be not interesting here. Can I send private e-mails?
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Postby Marco Pusterla » 03/01/05 02:31 AM

Hi!
a short bibliographycal note about various editions of Ozanam's "Recreations Matematiques et Physiques" may be of interest. I compiled this thanks to the help of Mr. Gianni Pasqua, from Turin, Italy, perhaps one the greatest experts in ancient magic books.

Jacques Ozanam (1640 - 3 Apr. 1717) had "Recreations Matematiques et Physiques" published in the following years:
- 1693
- 1694
- 1696
- 1697

After his death, the book continued to be published, and these editions are all available, either at collectors', museums or for sale:
- 1720
- 1723
- 1725
- 1735
- 1736

What interest magicians are the editions in four volumes contains the "Tours de Gibiciere" (excuse my accents), added perhaps by M. Grandin, the curator of that edition. These were published in
- 1741
- 1749 (perhaps. Could not find a copy)
- 1750

After the 1750's edition, the book underwent a major rewrite by Jean Etienne Montucla (5 Sept. 1725 - 18 Dec. 1799), who removed the chapter on magic and re-arranged the contents. French editions with Mountucla's hand were published in
- 1770
- 1778
- 1790

The first English tranlation of the book had been done in 1756 for an Irish edition. A further Irish edition was published in 1790. Charles Hutton translated the book for the first edition published in England, but this was Montucla edition's translation. Publication dates were:
- 1780
- 1803
- 1814
- 1840
- 1844

As you can see, this is a book that has gone through a fair number of printings (and I may have missed some editions...) but the editions of interest to magicians are not many :(

I hope this information may be of interest to some of you and please note that before you republish it somewhere, I would appreciate to be contacted...

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Postby Edwin Corrie » 03/01/05 03:42 AM

Here are some more dates:

http://themagicfiles.com/low/contents.php?id=1525
(from Stephen Minch's book "From Witchcraft to Card Tricks")

I don't have this (yet), but it seems to be still available from Magic Books by Post ( http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/magicbooks/ . There is also a French edition ( http://www.magix.fr/accueil/cadre_accueil.htm or http://www.magies.com/catalogpro.php?id=14712&lg=fr ).

I've been looking at the link which Mr. Stepanov provided to the facsimile of Guyot's book (what a superb find!!). The one-handed pass sounds a bit different from the Charlier Pass/Cut, although the description is not very detailed so it is hard to say. Gaultier says that the first desription of the one-handed pass "at the fingertips" is in Ponsin.

I see that Guyot also uses the term "passer la coupe", as well as "sauter la coupe". Conradi says "Volte" but also uses the verb "umschlagen".
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Postby Philippe Billot » 03/01/05 11:13 AM

Stepanov, you can e-mail me.
If I can help you, I'll do, but don't forget that actually the most qualified regarding Robert-Houdin is Christian Fechner.

Regarding the first publication of Nouvelles Rcrations by Guyot, there is a problem. In fact, I have three dates !!!

1740 Camille Gaultier & Bart Waley
1749 Rmy Ceillier
1769 Christian Fechner

BUT As Gaultier (I repeat myself) said that Carlo Antonio borrowed Guyot's work in his book Trsor des Jeux (The Treasury of Games)published in 1759, I retain 1740 and 1749.


Edwin, the One Hand Pass described by Guyot is not the Charlier Cut, you can see a short description in Modern Magic by Hoffmann, page 18, Fourth method.

As I have said, the verb "sauter" or "passer" means nullify for a gambler.


Marco, thanks you for your list.
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Postby Jason England » 03/02/05 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Edwin Corrie:
"Volte" is the term used by Hofzinser and Conradi for "pass", although it seems like a odd word to use because etymologically it means "turning over" (like the Russian "perevertysh" mentioned above) and doesn't really describe the action.
Considering Hofzinser is generally given credit these days for what is more commonly known as the Herrmann pass, is it not possible that "volte" is etymologically accurate, and that it is the Herrmann pass (with its turning action) that Hofzinser was referring to?

Just a thought.

Jason
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 03/02/05 08:48 AM

Interesting idea. Maybe others who are more familiar with the old sources can comment, although from what I've seen the early descriptions of the pass seem to explain the Classic Pass in which it is the top half that is moved - and in his post above Herr Seitz says that "Volte" was used long before Conradi, who was late 19th century. Maybe the notion of "rolling around", which could also describe the classic pass, is closer to the sense of "Volte".

Philippe:
Yes, in fact Guyot's one-handed pass actually sounds more like some of the modern (?) one-handed flourish cuts.
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Postby Stepanov » 03/22/05 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
Regarding the first publication of Nouvelles Rcrations by Guyot, there is a problem. In fact, I have three dates !!!

1740 Camille Gaultier & Bart Waley
1749 Rmy Ceillier
1769 Christian Fechner

BUT As Gaultier (I repeat myself) said that Carlo Antonio borrowed Guyot's work in his book Trsor des Jeux (The Treasury of Games)published in 1759, I retain 1740 and 1749.
So. Here
http://www.abebooks.fr/servlet/BookDeta ... =167612344
Guyot, firt edition, 1769. Is it possible connecting with library and look frontal page?
Oleg Stepanov
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Postby Philippe Billot » 03/22/05 02:46 PM

Thanks, Stepanov.

Me too, I have made searches and found in
BIOGRAPHIE UNIVERSELLE ANCIENNE ET MODERNE by Michaud (1857) the same date, 1769 !!!

Now, I have to solve a mystery:

Why Camille Gaultier et Thodore Ruegg (author of BIBLIOGRAPHIE DE LA PRESTIDIGITATION FRANCAISE ANCIENNE ET MODERNE) quote 1740.
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Postby Stepanov » 03/23/05 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:
Now, I have to solve a mystery:
Why Camille Gaultier et Thodore Ruegg (author of BIBLIOGRAPHIE DE LA PRESTIDIGITATION FRANCAISE ANCIENNE ET MODERNE) quote 1740.
I check Remi Ceillier. On Manuel Pratique D'Ellusionnisme et de Prestidigitation, page 29, he mention book of Ruegg. So, if we suppose first error was on Ruegg book, 1749 by Ceillier was error after error. Also will be interesting watch books what was before Ruegg - Sydney Clarke, 1920 and Burlingame "Tricks and Magic" vol. III, 1895-98.

BTW. Thanks for "Les mistres du pharaon dvoils by anonymous - 1803". Bingo. I find facsimile of Robert-Houdin book "Les Tricheries des Grecs Devoilees" 1879. On page 334 there are note:
On lit aussi dans un ouvrage ayant pour titre: les Mystres du pharaon, Leipzig, 1810, que quatre Grecs, ayant accapar tous les jeux de la ville de F......, les marqurent, et parvinrent ensuite les faire acheter par les directeurs des jeux, dont ils firent sauter la banque.
I find it on my Russian book 1807. So, I find sourse. Now I need only get original. :-))))

Oleg Stepanov.
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Postby Edwin Corrie » 03/23/05 04:03 PM

You've probably already tried this, but I did a search on Google for

Guyot "Nouvelles Rcrations"

and got nearly 100 hits. Many refer to later editions, but several give 1769 as the date of the first edition. For example:

Edm Gilles Guyot (1769). Nouvelles Rcrations Physiques et Mathmatiques Chez Gueffier, Paris, 1769-70 (4 vols); vol.2 pp.230-242 (recreation 60) and plate 2 (de Moivre's tour). Also Paris, 1786 (3 vols), 177275, 1786, 1798, 1799, 180001. (Translations: German Neue physikalische und mathematische belustigungen 1772; Giuoci Fisici e matematici 1818).
http://www.ktn.freeuk.com/ca.htm and
http://www.ktn.freeuk.com/cx.htm

Other hits include several bookshops offering copies for sale (quite expensive), a couple of mentions on our very own Genii forum, and even a Russian site ( http://math.nsc.ru/library/HTML/katalogs/rkn/pG.html ).

But I'm sure you've found all this yourselves already...
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