Which came first? The Second or the Bottom?

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Postby Guest » 01/29/07 08:02 PM

I naturally assumed it was the second deal since it seems logical that with a little thought, someone could discover the ability to push over or down the top card and deal the second. But, to use the second, the glimpse or marked cards also had to be invented. So, it could be possible that the bottom deal came about because cheats could cull cards to the bottom when collecting them, then deal them out as needed. (Of course, one presumes the use of a false shuffle as well.) Finally, I found it interesting that Walter Scott's (The phantom at the card table) second deals were in part effective because everyone knew about and was watching for a bottom deal.

Which leads me to a research question. Can anyone cite the first published references to second dealing and bottom dealing, and does one predate the other?

Thanks cheating history buffs!

Mark Phillips
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Postby Guest » 01/30/07 08:38 PM

I don't have any references to offer, but I would think that the bottom deal is older, or at least its use was more widespread at an earlier date. I think the extraordinary thing (at the time) about Walter Scott's deal was that it was a strike second along with the use of "bugs" and edgework, which the New York crowd had not seen before (and it was done exceptionally well). The use of bottom dealing is at least widespread enough to be known by every non-magician I have ever met. Most laymen think of cheating and immediately think of bottom dealing.
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Postby Philippe Billot » 01/31/07 01:49 AM

In Story of My Life, Giacomo Casanova (1725-1798)speaks about the second dealing for the game of Pharaon but the real terme was "filer la carte" (top change)as report by Robert-Houdin in his book
Les tricheries des grecs dvoiles (1863), translate in english by Prof. Hoffmann (Card Sharping Exposed - 1882).
I think the bottom deal was also used only by few gamblers because it was and it's always a difficult sleight.
I think Richard Kaufman will agree because he has written (in Cardmagic, I suppose) :
"Even if my life will be in play, I can't do a good bottom deal".
Philippe Billot
 
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Postby Guest » 01/31/07 02:35 PM

I came across one source that traced the second deal back to an Italian book from around 1520 and the bottom deal to a French book from around 1550. Both were apparently just references without any explanation.
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Postby Guest » 01/31/07 09:24 PM

Thanks for the assistance. I hope others have something to offer. Mr. Corrie, can you tell me the source for the mentions?
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Postby Guest » 02/01/07 01:11 AM

Mark, I'm not sure if I'm at liberty to post details here. I'll PM you.
Guest
 

Postby Philippe Billot » 02/01/07 01:53 AM

You are right Edwin.

The bottom deal is in "Le mespris et contennement de tous jeux de sort", written by Olivier Gouyn de Poitiers in 1550.

There is also the center deal because he writes :
"au lieu de prendre les cartes dessus, il les prendra dessous ou AU MILIEU, ou bien regardera dessous les dites cartes..."
(Instead of dealing the cards from the top, he takes them from the bottom or the CENTER or glimpse the bottom cards...)

There is no explanation of the technique(s)

I haven't find the italian book from 1520 but I know that in 1565, Gerolamo Cardano speaks about gambling in Liber de Ludo Aleae (Livre des jeux de hasard or Book of game of chance.
Philippe Billot
 
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