Card to Box history

Discuss the historical aspects of magic, including memories, or favorite stories.

Postby Jon Allen » 07/17/02 08:49 AM

I'm looking to find out a brief history of the Card to Box. I have a version coming out and I want to be able to chart the history and give credit to the various additions made over the years.

Bruno Henning had the original Card in Box but I do not know in which year or where it was published or produced. Was his idea based on any previous effect or routine?

Fred Kaps popularised it with Scotty York suggesting the addition of a piece of thread to keep the card in place yet appear loose. Again, any idea when this was suggested or where it was first published?

Jami Ian Swiss followed with his addition of other items inside the box.

Are there any other important moments in history for this effect I should be aware of?

Any help is mush appreicated. If any answer appear today (Wednesday) it would be extremely helpful.

Thanks in advance,

Jon
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Postby Guest » 07/17/02 12:25 PM

Sorry, I wrote a reply concerning card to card box. I then remember seeing your version at the IBM convention and realized that wouldnt help you out. Its a great trick though.
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Postby Guest » 07/19/02 03:07 AM

I guess you'll be mentioning the John Kennedy box then?

Paul.
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Postby Jon Allen » 07/19/02 03:53 AM

Paul,

I briefly listed several people who have been associated with the effect or have made a significant contribution to it.
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Postby Pete Biro » 07/22/02 11:09 AM

To my knowledge, Persi Diaconis was the first. He had a piece inside the box to rattle, so the spectator would "hear" the card in the box. I think this was passed on to Fred Kaps in the early stage.
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Postby Guest » 07/18/06 12:12 AM

I would very much enjoy a more complete lineage of this effect.

Could you please mention details such as: Type of box, if the dummy is attached or not and by what means, how the card is folded, the actions by which the cards are switched, etc.

I am aware of innovations like Tommy Wonders "Card in Ring Box" and am interested in other variations.


Best,

Tyler
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Postby Guest » 07/18/06 11:09 AM

More specifically, I am looking for a published version that does not have the dummy attached within the box and uses a pinning action to prevent it from falling during the shuttle pass.

Any help? I am reasonably sure I have seen it somewhere, but I can't remember where.

T
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/18/06 12:03 PM

What's the problem? Just hold the extra piece in place with your thumb as you turn the box over for the fake dump.
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Postby Guest » 07/18/06 08:39 PM

I saw Jamy Ian Swiss lecture in 1983-84 and he

was doing card to a brass apple that opened up

like a box.It had the thread holding the card

loose in it. At that time Jamy was living in DC

and working at the Inn of Magic and I think

Scotty was

also. There was a Jamy Swiss issue of Genii that

came out and I can't remember if it is in there.

Mike
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Postby Guest » 07/18/06 09:28 PM

You reall ought to talk to Scotty York about this, and how it all came about. You might also check his "For Your Eyes Only" notes where he details some of the history.
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Postby Pete Biro » 07/18/06 10:48 PM

I still think it was Persi, but he's out of reach for a year, having left for Nice, France to teach for a year.

It was in a standard USPC card box and I am certain that's where Kaps got it.
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Postby Bill Wells » 07/19/06 01:53 PM

I have sent this page to Scotty and will let you know if he has anything he wishes to add.
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Postby Bill Wells » 07/19/06 08:20 PM

As Curtis has pointed out, a brief history of "the card in the box" appears on pages 34-35 of "For Your Eyes Only", a 1993 manuscript published by Scotty York. The history is part of the write up of The Signed Card in the Watch description written by Jamy Ian Swiss.

I communicated with Scotty regarding the routine today and this is what he and I remember about the first revelation of the move by Fred Kaps and the subsequent modifications. It is as described by Jamy in the FYEO manuscript.

Fred showed the method to Scotty in the early '70s while visiting with Scotty during Fred's lecture at the Washington, DC Ring 50. It was a ring box (not a card box) and Fred clearly said the method had been shown him by Bruno Hennig of Germany (also Fred's source for the floating cork). Hennig had given Fred permission to include the method in his lecture. The folded card was glued to the bottom of the ring box.
Scotty suggested that if the card was attached to inside of the box with a short monofiliment, then the box could be shaken and one could hear the card rattling in the box prior to the card being shown. Once the top was removed, the card would appear to be loose inside the box before being "dumped" into the hand. Fred insisted on Scotty making the modification to his ring box immmediately.
For his own use, Scotty, using a box for zodiac cards which had a top and bottom, (like a box of candy) attached a folded card on monofiliment inside the bottom and placed the deck on top of the folded card. Scotty used this to good effect in his early lectures before the development of the card in the pocket watch routine.

We don't remember Percy being mentioned by Fred nor was Fred using a card box. It was definitely a ring box.
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Postby Guest » 07/20/06 10:59 AM

I know of no association between this effect and Persi Diaconis.

I have provided several historical references concerning this trick in the course of my writings. One error that I apparently contributed and have since corrected is the name of Bruno Hennig, the creator of the Dancing & Floating Cork, and a close associate of Fred Kaps. At one time I had heard (and reported) that Hennig deserved the original credit, and had given the trick to Kaps. In Europe in 1991, a claimed colleague of Hennig's told me this was not the case, and I attempted to correct the record and remove his name from the history. However, I have since been informed by my friend and colleague Roberto Giobbi that he can assure me, on the basis of firsthand knowledge, that in fact I was right in the first place, and that Bruno Hennig created the original idea as Kaps used it. This is the credit that Roberto provides in his own trick using the principle in Volume 5 of Card College.

My own small role in this is the contribution (that has been credited by many) of adding additional loose objects to the container, which fall out into the other hand as the shuttle pass is made.
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Postby Guest » 07/20/06 11:05 AM

I see that Jon is asking for dates. Hennig never published the trick, to the best of my knowledge. I believe that Kaps first made the trick public in a lecture at the Ramsay Reunion gathering, but I do not think there were printed materials provided. Scotty York was the first to publish in the U.S., to the best of my knowledge, with the permission of Kaps. The trick was "The Astrology Deck," which appeared in Scotty's notes, "Decennial Prelection." I am not certain that was the first set of notes the trick was included in, and they are not dated. I believe these come later than the "Greenfield Notes" which are dated 1977, and which do not include the trick. Bill, do you have a date for "Greenfield?"
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Postby Pete Biro » 07/20/06 11:56 AM

I swear Persi told me about the use of a card case and the card attached via a thread was his.

I could be wrong, and unfortunately Persi is not reachable now having gone to France for a year on hiatus from Stanford.
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Postby Bill Wells » 07/20/06 12:57 PM

Jamy -

Sorry, I should have reread your write up of the actual instructions to the "Signed Card in the Watch" which postdated "FYEO", however, you have taken care of the Hennig situation with your Giobbi update.

The Greenville Lecture refresher notes are dated August 20, 1977. As you have already pointed out, there is no date on the Decennial Prelection notes however Scotty came up with the screwy name because the notes marked the end of his first decade in magic which I think would make it sometime in the late '70s. I have asked the illusive Mr. York to take a moment from his golf game and attempt to give us a date. I will pass it on as soon as I hear from him.

Pete - your brain is degenerating ... this is absolutely the first time I have ever heard anyone associate Perci's name with this trick.
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Postby Guest » 07/20/06 01:08 PM

Thanks, Bill. Yes, that's right, I updated the history in those instructions, circa 1993 -- but that was at the point where I had met the guy in Europe who told me Hennig was saying it wasn't his. However, based on the testimony of Roberto Giobbi, I now believe that Hennig does in fact deserve credit. Let me know if Scotty dates Decennial Prelection for you, I've always wondered about that, but yes, I agree it's like very late '70s.
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Postby Guest » 07/20/06 07:47 PM

It should be noted that Jamy's addition not only allows the "contents" of the container to fall out, but in his application of the idea it also allows a spectator to look inside the "card-less" container, and even remove an object.

Mike Close, kicked the concept up yet another notch by making the object that is emptied from the container a suprise to the performer, thereby adding justification to the performer handling the folded "card".

The amount of brilliant thinking around this plot simply amazes me, from it's original conception, to the current state...
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Postby Guest » 07/20/06 08:02 PM

Anyone taken Roth's approach as per his planet routine?

Come to think of it...that would permit a card, a coin and a key to all go. Hmmm :cool:
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Postby Bill Wells » 07/21/06 10:03 AM

Pete -

Scotty wonders if you may be thinking about another idea that was most likely Persi's, which has nothing to do with the folded card in ring box. This is an idea which Scotty hasn't followed or used, wherein an object such as a coin or ring appears inside a card box.

Scotty remembers that originally, a ring was vanished and the box was picked up with one hand and shaken so you heard something inside the box. The card box flap was opened and the ring was apparently dumped out.

(I don't feel it would be appropriate to discuss Perci's actual method here - suffice to say it has similarity to the method under discussion).

Later, someone "improved" it by gimmicking the card box permitting the load in of the actual ring (totally unnecessary) This version may have actually been manufactured and sold probably without any credit to Perci, but Scotty's memory on this point is pretty vague as he never used or played with the idea. Scotty says Perci could well have first mentioned this to him years ago, but long after Fred showed him the ring box with folded card, which is very different and Fred did credit Bruno Hennig when he originally showed this to us (Scotty and me).

Scotty goes on to add that with the ring in card box you never see the ring inside, you just hear it inside. He does not recall a folded card being used inside the "rattling card box," but supposes one could.

So maybe your brain is only partially degenerated. ;)

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Postby Richard Kaufman » 07/21/06 10:21 AM

Peter Kane has a ring to cardcase in his book "Kane."
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Postby Pete Biro » 07/21/06 10:48 AM

Sir Wells... keeper of the dogs... YES, that was it, Persi used a CARD BOX with a RING. One Ringy Dingy... whew, must be the heat affecting mine gray matter.

Gotta head to the Magic Castle and sit at table 29 (right under a ceiling fan)! Later.
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Postby Jon Allen » 07/21/06 04:36 PM

Jamy,

Yours is hardly a "small role" in the history of the effect. I remember seeing your 'Kiss of the Big Apple' in Davenports some years ago. What year was the routine first published?

As well as Jamy's addition, Mike Close's 'Big Surprise' also influenced my thinking on this effect. The piece in Workers 3 on his reasoning and construciton of the routine is quite eye opening.

Also, along a similar thread was Scotty York's Ring in Nest of Globes. I think it was on a Stevens tape but I can't be sure.

Both Jamy, Mike & Scotty were instrumental in me creating The Destination Box.
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Postby Guest » 07/21/06 04:59 PM

For the record, I like Jon Allen's Destination Box and think it's yet another interesting and valuable variant on this theme.

With all due respect, I really think that in public discussions of the historical record, one could stand to be a bit more circumspect before making statements like "I swear Persi told me about the use of a card case and the card attached via a thread was his." No flame wars desired or intended, but a statement I think worthy of mention. Caution is a benefit to ALL parties concerned -- the spoken of, the spoken to, and the speaking.

In other matters ... ah, yes, the late Peter Kane's Card in Ring Box -- which incorporates a very deceptive idea. (I saw Bruce Cervon perform this very effectively, ages ago at the Castle.) I recall first reading this idea years ago in one of his "Card Session" manuscripts. Gary Plants makes a cleverly gaffed version that allows you to show both sides of the box (whether this is a necessity is arguable, but the gaff is superbly made, as with all Gary's work): http://home.houston.rr.com/mylist/index.html
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Postby Guest » 07/21/06 05:04 PM

Ah, I guess from Bill's post that what Diaconis would be claiming here is the idea of the noisemaker. I have no firsthand knowledge if that was Kane's inspirational source, but I would comment that since the box is already gaffed -- i.e., with the noisemaker -- why not gaff all the way and get that very clean revelation of the ring falling from the box? That does not seem like overkill to me. Whereas some might suggest that showing both sides of the box might well be an example of violating Al Baker's dictum of "Don't run when nobody is chasing you."
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Postby Guest » 07/21/06 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Peter Kane has a ring to cardcase in his book "Kane."
Would that be the same version that's in Another Card Session with Peter Kane?

That version has metal rattle attachment inside the card box...
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Postby Guest » 08/03/06 04:10 AM

Bruno Henning's grandson wrote about that card-to-box, see

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ ... 6;t=000561

... and wrote that Bruno Hennig told that the idea with thread Fred Kaps got from Scotty York.
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Postby kammagic » 10/06/06 12:18 AM

Hello,

Would like to mention my newly released effect ToiBox. Its a card to mint tin effect that I believe is almost perfect when it comes to card to box effects.

ToiBox is a manuscript of techniques and routines for using a particular size mint tin. The latest routine that has been added to the book is the routine that I feel is as close to the perfect card to box effect as you can get.

The effect:
The mint tin is shown and examined by the audience. It is a regular mint tin so there is nothing for them to find. A card is freely selected and signed by the spectator and lost in the deck. Before the effect happens you explain to the audience exactly what is going to take place. "Their card is going to end up in the mint tin with out them seeing it happen." You give the mint tin which you clearly show empty to a spectator and they hold onto the tin for the rest of the effect. You then make their signed selection dissappear from the deck and end up in the tin they are holding. You do not come near the tin. The spectator opens their hand, then opens the tin, they remove the card and unfold it to find that it is their signed selection. No Gimmicks! everything can be examined before and after the effect. I have recently eliminated the need for the Mercury Fold. The entire routine can be done with 3 simple sleights that any novice would know. The technique for doing the routine without the Mercury Fold is the way I do the routine now but I haven't put it in the book yet so expect it in the future. It doesn't change the strength or appearance of the effect. Feel free to eMail me any questions you might have.
Jonathan
, Jonathan
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Postby Brian Marks » 10/06/06 11:45 AM

card to box started as soon as there were cards and boxes.
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