who are the men in this old photo???

Discuss the historical aspects of magic, including memories, or favorite stories.
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Tabman
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who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Tabman » December 5th, 2003, 10:32 am

recently i found an old photo i had in my okito collection (when i had a collection)that i couldnt bring myself to part with. ive sent copies of the photo out to several folks and so far we've not been able to identify two of the folks. richard hatch and pete biro have come up with the best answers so far and richard is pretty sure that its from the 1947 S.A.M. convention in chicago. if you are historically inclined i invite you to take a look at the photo by clicking the link below and see who you recognize. also what do you think these gents are looking at we wonder???? click here to see the photo
-=tabman=-

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Guest » December 5th, 2003, 10:43 am

I think I see Harlan Tarbell, Bert Allerton, Jack Gywnne, and maybe Walter B. Gibson, in the group.

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Kevin Connolly
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Kevin Connolly » December 5th, 2003, 11:02 am

Maybe Hugard and Tannen?
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Matthew Field
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Matthew Field » December 5th, 2003, 11:52 am

I agree with Diego. From the left,

1. Bert Allerton
2. Jean Hugard
4. Walter Gibson
8. Lou Tannen (? not sure)
9. Harlan Tarbell


Matt Field

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Kevin Connolly
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Kevin Connolly » December 5th, 2003, 12:38 pm

Boy! If Bert Allerton doesn't look like a bank auditor, no one does. :D
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Max Maven
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Max Maven » December 5th, 2003, 1:16 pm

1. Bert Allerton
2. Jean Hugard
3. John Braun
4. ?
5. Walter Gibson
6. Theo Bamberg
7. Jack Gwynne
8. Arthur Buckley
9. Harlan Tarbell
10. might be Edgar Bergen

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Guest » December 5th, 2003, 4:00 pm

#4 is Sid Lorraine

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Matthew Field
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Matthew Field » December 5th, 2003, 5:54 pm

Ya gotta love Max Maven. Wotta guy.

Good work, John Arledge!

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Guest » December 5th, 2003, 8:07 pm

Looks as if all have been identified except #10. It is not Edgar Bergen, but have no idea who it is. Who is still living from that era and would know ?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 5th, 2003, 8:17 pm

I don't know why Tabby didn't mention this, but before he posted the link here, not only did I identify all the same guys as Max, but I also noted that it was probably in Chicago, and probably in the 1940s.
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Tabman
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Tabman » December 5th, 2003, 8:53 pm

richard kaufman is of course one of the authorities that i regularly consult when i have burning questions like this and of course he knew the answers along with hatch, biro and maven. now john has supplied us with one of the two missing links at number 4. now, i never want to steal anyones thunder so i hesitate to say this but since mr hatch is staying quiet ill tell you that he has arranged through his confidential sources to run a copy of the photo under the one and only mr. jay marshall's nose tomorrow. he if doesnt know who the guy on the right is then nobody living does. ill leave it to richard hatch to tell the story of the lighting fixture!!!!
-=tabman

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Pete Biro
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Pete Biro » December 5th, 2003, 10:32 pm

Tabmeister, thanky for crediting us sleuths... I gotta bo back and look at that last guy on the right end. :confused:
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Pete Biro » December 5th, 2003, 10:36 pm

Looking at the photo again, we all missed that one eyeball in the back row... could be Chick Schokie (sp?) or Jack Chanin. No. 4 may be a young Sid Lorraine. What do you think Max? I do not think the last guy on the right is Bergen, too tall.
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Richard Hatch » December 5th, 2003, 10:49 pm

Pete, you're right. It sure looks like Max's eyebrow to me peeking over John Braun's shoulder! How'd you do that Max? You weren't even born!

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Kevin Connolly
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Kevin Connolly » December 6th, 2003, 8:19 am

The guy with the eye was Dr. Ben Dover. He was a proctologist that liked magic. He is credited with inventing the thumb tip. :eek:
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Pete Biro » December 6th, 2003, 9:03 am

The real Ben Dover was (maybe still is) a juggler. :D
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » December 6th, 2003, 9:28 am

Took the pic to a shadowy friend who claims to know more about the JFK assassination than Oliver Stone, who is a CIA-type guy and photo expert. He did the blow-up analysis, plus enhancement, to check out the name tags. There are five in view. The logo suggests SAM (not IBM) convention. The wallpaper and decor are in keeping with the Morrison Hotel in Chicago. Checking the relative age-appearance of guys like John Braun, who was born in 1896, and judging by other photos snapped during his lifetime, he looks to be early 50s. Same applies to Sid Lorraine, who was born in 1905.Therefore, this pic was probably snapped somewhere between 1952-56. This is also in keeping with the eye-glasses and necktie styles.

The pen in Tarbell's left breast pocket is an Easterbrook. The cigarette in Okito's left hand is unfiltered and an "L" shows on the cigarette paper (though very faint), suggesting that he was smoking a Camel.

The fourth figure between Braun and Lorraine was not there when the pic was snapped. This is a doctored pic because the textures and other details do not match. The position of his right eye is not focussed on the camera man.

Oddly enough, in candid shots like this, Allerton always had a furtive look, as though he was being arraigned.

My expert pointed out that none of the posers were looking at the camera man. The shadow of the chandelier cues the direction the pic was shot.

The resolution of the camera also suggested that this was done with a quality, press-type camera.

The mystery-man to the far right, the tallest man of the group, was not part of the primary group.

Otherwise everyone else is identified.

Who "doctored" this pic is the real mystery.

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Bob L » December 6th, 2003, 9:31 am

I think the presence of the shadowy figure in the background just proves that -- as many of us have suspected over the years -- Phil Goldstein is MUCH older than Max Maven.

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Guest » December 6th, 2003, 11:53 am

I happened to save this picture as soon as it was posted. The photograph I have saved to my hard drive has no "mystery man." It has only ten men, no "one-eyeballed man." This means that someone with access to the server uploaded an edited picture between December 5 and last night (December 6, when Pete mentioned the presence of the eleventh person).

The photograph that was there when the link was originally posted has now been uploaded to my website. Here's the link:

http://www.obsolite.com/okitopic.jpg

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Matthew Field
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Matthew Field » December 6th, 2003, 12:07 pm

Excellent detectiv work, RoatC.

I can narrow down the time when the doctored picture was posted.

In my response, at 11:52 AM "Genii time," I identified #4 as Walter Gibson. When Max Maven posted his list at 1:16 PM, he listed Gibson as #5. So the doctored photo was posted in that 84 minute period.

Both photos were on Tabman's server, not Genii's.

What say, Tabby?

Matt Field

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Guest » December 6th, 2003, 12:12 pm

I'm not sure the Tabmeister is to blame for this, folks. My money's on Rose Mary Woods.

Guest

Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Guest » December 6th, 2003, 12:52 pm

Someone's fooling with us, because the mystery man is now gone, but the tall one on the right is wearing a pair of sunglasses, and David Blaine has sneaked in between Arthur Buckley and Harlan Tarbell.

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Tabman
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Tabman » December 6th, 2003, 1:40 pm

you guys are the greatest. thats why i love magic so much, its the people. after my son left i have been depressed for a few years and digging out my magic memories and finding the genii bbs has put a smile on my face and its been awhile. thanks so much to everyone. i wasnt "fooling" with anyone of course and max maven certainly knows how i feel about him. ive been having a heck of a time matching the skin tones in this old photo though. ill put the original back up tonight sometime. its a great photo. maybe jay marshall will know who the mystery man in shades is. best to everyone with love and respect!!!
-=tabman

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John Smetana
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby John Smetana » December 6th, 2003, 4:16 pm

That was fun Tabman..very refreshing. Sometimes I think we get a little too serious anyway. Remember-It's not important to be serious..just be serious about important things.

Best thoughts,
John Smetana

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Tabman
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Tabman » December 6th, 2003, 7:08 pm

thank you mr. smetana, im glad you enjoyed it. it was designed to be fun and to be interesting as well as mystereous. i have restored the original photo on my server as well as the one with max maven looking over john braun's shoulder (mr racherbaumer's comments - excellent!!!) and the one with the mystery man wearing a pair of cool sunglasses. never has there been one with david blaine involved as i do not know mr blaine!! here are links to the three pictures.

click here for the original photo
click here for the one with max
click here for pic with mystery man in sunglasses

Steve's comment about rose mary woods - very funny!!! gotta love it when you can get a laugh!!! truly there are a lot of great folks involved here. thank you so much!!!

stay tooned!!!(tm - biro)

-=tabman

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Steve V » December 6th, 2003, 8:09 pm

Is it true that Max Maven was able to determine the names of the men w/out looking at the photo?
Steve V
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Keith Raygor
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Keith Raygor » December 6th, 2003, 9:22 pm

Tabman,
Thanks for the history.
Also, the transcripts of MAGIC! BBS are a delight to read through. Is there a chance you'll ever put up the next few batches that may take us into '92 or '93?
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby CHRIS » December 7th, 2003, 1:33 am

This might be a long long shot. I looked through all the Who is Who of the Sphinx which show a little portrait of each listed. I tried to find a photo that resembles the mystery man. I didn't find anything that was a clear match but somehow the photo of Cecil Kennedy Browning bears some resemblance.

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Matthew Field
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Matthew Field » December 7th, 2003, 5:27 am

Tabman -- what a hoot! I've got 2 feet of snow outside and your post made me laugh out loud. What a treat. Many thanks.

Matt Field

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Guest » December 7th, 2003, 7:10 am

Now... what's the deal with the lighting fixture??? --Asrah

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby gfajuri » December 8th, 2003, 7:50 am

And now, to answer the mystery of mysteries:

The mystery man on the far right side of the picture is none other than Dave Coleman of Terre Haute, Indiana. Coleman toured the US (mostly working club dates) with his wife Pauline. The act was billed as "Coleman's Oddities," and in addition to magic, Dave presented a medicine pitch as "Doc Hokum" (not necessarily as part of the Oddities act). The feature of the Coleman act was setting an anvil on Pauline's bare midriff and breaking a concrete block on top of the anvil with a sledgehammer. To add an element of danger to the effect (as if it already wansn't bad enough), the anvil had around 100 metal spiked welded to it. The spikes were what rested against Pauline's bare stomach!

An audience volunteer would be enlisted to wield the sledgehammer and break the concrete block. I've seen a picture somewhere (the Sphinx?) of Milbourne Christopher doing the honors at a magic convention. I have a great photo of the act (with sledgehammer in mid-swing) at a 1936(!) Abbott's Get-Together, in the middle of the street on a raised platform.

Gabe Fajuri

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Tabman
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Tabman » December 8th, 2003, 6:14 pm

"The mystery man on the far right side of the picture is none other than Dave Coleman of Terre Haute, Indiana." thats great gabe!!!! im not familiar with coleman. how did you figure this out??? is there any chance you might share that photo of coleman with us???
congratulations!!!
-=tabman

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby gfajuri » December 9th, 2003, 6:48 am

Tabman,

I'll have to dig out the photo. If/when I do, I'll post it.

Coleman was a very active magician in the 1940's and 1950's, and I've run across his name and picture in a variety of places. He spent a lot of time in the road corresponding with friends, and a few years back I had a chance to read hundreds of letters he exchanged with Doc Mahendra.

Best,

Gabe

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Richard Hatch » December 11th, 2003, 5:18 pm

Hold everything... How confident are we about Sid Lorraine being the 4th guy? According to Jay Marshall it is Sam Berman (not Berland)... He didn't ID Coleman, but thought that Nick Tomei would know who it was...
This information courtesy of David Meyer who met with Jay and showed him the photo...
So, Lorraine or Berman? I'm voting with the Dean myself...

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Pete Biro » December 11th, 2003, 7:43 pm

Hey, Jay only has ONE EYE... would you believe him???

Altho it may well be Berman... looks a little to fat-jawed to be Sid, creator of the Slop Shuffle.
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby CHRIS » December 12th, 2003, 5:52 am

I found 3 photos of Dave Coleman in The Sphinx on pages v45 n8 p242, v46 n9 p279. There are no photos of Sam Berman only two trick entries. There are photos of Sid Lorraine.

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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby Pete Biro » December 12th, 2003, 9:24 am

So you found pix of Coleman, do they look like the guy in question?
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Re: who are the men in this old photo???

Postby CHRIS » December 12th, 2003, 10:33 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
So you found pix of Coleman, do they look like the guy in question?
I am not 100% sure but I would say that Gabe is most likely correct. The problem is that they are all from different angles and one is with beard. If I find the time this weekend I will upload the images and link to them so you can draw your own conclusions.

Chris Wasshuber
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