Lorayne

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.

Postby Bill Mullins » 08/24/01 06:12 PM

I read here that there will be a Harry Lorayne feature coming soon. After reading the introductions in the Richard's Almanac book, I'm a little surprised. Is this strictly a business decision? Are Richard and Harry on "good" terms now? Will past injustices be addressed in the article?

This seems like a good "gossip and rumors" thread to start.
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 08/24/01 10:57 PM

The sum and substance of any man's life cannot be derived from controversies that he sparks, deflects, or participates in...

Over the years I've directly and indirectly criticized Harry Lorayne, either through and by satire or other polemical means. However, on a PERSONAL level I've ALWAYS enjoyed his company, delighted in our occasional sessions, and found much to admire and respect. I really, truly, sincerely like the guy, always being mindful of the pros and cons--the good, bad, and ugly. Of course the same thing could be said about all of us.

Since I have written the article about Harry to soon appear in GENII, let me assure readers that the article is about the MAN and his amazing life rather than about rumors, gossip, or other "virtual tremors" in the alternate worlds we often visit.

Stay tuned...
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/25/01 12:24 AM

Everything I wrote in Richard's Almanac is true. My personal opinion, however, is sometimes outweighed by other factors. In the case of Doug Henning, for example ... I was not a fan of his work, however his death deserved the full issues' worth of coverage we gave it.
Harry Lorayne has been a major figure in our field for over 40 years and he deserves the indepth cover story that will appear in Genii in November, particularly since his new book Personal Collection (which may actually be his last book since he's now 75 years old), is coming out the same month (it's 650 pages!!!!).
I've enjoyed the other articles he's written for Genii recently, including the pieces on FFFF and The Too Perfect Theory. He has another piece in the October issue on Steve Cohen. Hope everyone on the forum lets me know what they think of the pieces he's writing for Genii!
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Postby Guest » 08/30/01 04:50 PM

Wow! 650 pages. I'm looking forward to this book, but I'm even more interested in seeing a reveiw of the book in Genii. (Preferrably by Mr. J.I.S) I understand that the book will only be available from Harry Lorayne. Is this true?
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 08/30/01 06:23 PM

Mike,
Yes, it's true: the book will ONLY be available directly from Harry. It's $150 plus $6 p&h, total $156. There are only 750 copies being printed, and all of them are signed and come in a slipcase. If you think it's going to sell out, order one now from Harry at the same old address on Jane St.
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Postby Brian Marks » 08/30/01 08:32 PM

The story on Steven Cohen is somethin I cant wait to read. Ive performed several killer tricks for a lay audience only to have Steve floor them 10 fold to what I did. He doesnt like to be the center of attention in the magic community with good reason
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Postby Andy Hurst » 08/30/01 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Harry Lorayne has been a major figure in our field for over 40 years and he deserves the indepth cover story that will appear in Genii in November, particularly since his new book Personal Collection (which may actually be his last book since he's now 75 years old), is coming out the same month (it's 650 pages!!!!).


Yeah, and I expect 5 of those pages have original material, and half dozen of the other 645 pages give proper credit.

I guess only releasing 750 copies reduces the chance of a copy right law suit though :-)

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Postby Jamie Badman » 08/31/01 02:56 PM

I intend to order Personal Collection from Harry right now! But... I'm in the UK and don't know how much he'll charge for airmail. Does anyone happen to know ? Or know how I can contact Harry in order to find out ?

Please email me (JamieBadman@carrotmail.com) if you do!

thanks,

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Postby Guest » 08/31/01 04:47 PM

All I have, Jamie, is Harry's snail mail address. You can find it on any issue of Apocalypse, but I still don't feel right posting it here so I will email it too you. On the post card he sent me it says that the Foreign postage for the Bound Apocalypse Vol 3, which is actually a larger book, will be $11 surface and $26 air. ($32 to Australia, Japan, etc.) I would assume that the shipping costs would be similar for the new book. Personal Best is not ready for shipping yet. You could send him your $150 to reserve the book and send the shipping charge anytime before the book comes out.

[ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Heitkamper ]

[ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Heitkamper ]
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Postby Jamie Badman » 08/31/01 05:08 PM

Thanks Mike; good idea. I'm going to send Harry $175. Should do the trick!

Cheers to everyone who emailed.

Jamie.
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Postby Guest » 09/06/01 12:35 AM

as for me, i can not WAIT for harry's new book, or his genii issue for that matter. andy, i thought your comment was a bit harsh, but your certainly entitled to state your opinion. but do you REALLY feel that way? and please, enlighten us...WHY? anyway, richard, you're publishing several of the tricks from his new book, can you tell us a bit about them? and, richard, given the fact that it is an expensive, limited edition, available only from harry, what do you predict insofar as sales go? i think it will sell out rather quickly. i love harry lorayne, and i love his books. i haven't looked so forward to a new book EVER in my magical life. it is the only one i can think of that i would buy site unseen, and no matter the price.
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Postby Steve Cohen » 09/06/01 05:00 PM

Harry showed me many of the items from his new book, and they are really fantastic. The last chapter of the book contains what *could* be an entire act! In this effect, Harry apparently memorized an entire deck that I shuffled, and could tell what card lied at what position. This is just one of many effects that compose this "act". Although the cardman in me could follow some of what was going on, I couldn't fathom the exact method. This one is worth the price of the book. Another effect that is included was co-developed by Harvey Cohen (no relation to me, aside from being an excellent cardhandler and a close friend) and Harry Lorayne. I have been using this effect in my professional shows and have been flooring people. Truly closer material.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/06/01 09:55 PM

I think the last item in Harry's new book is something he's been holding back (no bull about this) for decades. He has a routine that combines memory, estimation, and key card work (nail nicks?) in a way that no one has done before. It's the thing he does when he really wants to fry people BADLY.
As far as how many he will sell ... I don't think he'll be able to sell all 750 directly himself. Too many people want to see a book first in the magic shop, particularly before spending $150 on a card book! Yikes!
The tricks we have for Genii in November are all good, one very good, and typical of the type of material Lorayne has been publishing for 20 years.
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Postby Guest » 09/06/01 11:43 PM

steve,
harry shpwed me that routine more than once and i still can't backtrack it enough to know how he sets for the ending! part of me thinks that for the opening, he's using a lot of legit memory work. the other part of me thinks he's making us THINK he's using a lot of legit memory work. i agree with your enthusiasm for this M-E-S routine, and would have paid $150 for the work on it alone. indeed harry intended to leave it written up, to be publisehd by his son, after harry got hit by a bus. i'm so happy we don't have to wait til then..and it probably would have been ANDY driving the bus! steve, tell us more about this effect you use...
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Postby Andy Hurst » 09/07/01 12:44 AM

Originally posted by John Blaze:
but do you REALLY feel that way? and please, enlighten us...WHY?


Yes I really feel that way.
Yes it's my opinion.
Why? I could write pages on this, but let's just take "Close up Card Magic", in which Harry steals a ton of material and either fails to credit effects at all or mentions there has been work on it but doesn't bother to say where. He also takes other peoples works, combines them, doesn't give credit and claims it as his own. What a cheap old thief he is!

Enough said. If you buy his books you probably buy bootleg videos and CD's and get your electronic equipment from a bloke in a rain coat at the market who runs when the police drive by.
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Postby Andy Hurst » 09/07/01 12:46 AM

Originally posted by John Blaze:
i'm so happy we don't have to wait til then..and it probably would have been ANDY driving the bus! steve, tell us more about this effect you use...


Yes I am driving the bus. Look it's the little yellow short bus - quick John, get on!
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 09/07/01 01:39 AM

During the past 30 years I've been in the nasty epicenter of many controversies and credit disputes, either as a defender, apologist, or clarifying agent--all ostensibly done on behalf of others.

One of the things I learned, mostly the hard way, is that complete originality (in magic) is rare. Also, almost every idea, innovation, variation, and improvement is in someway ancestrally tied to other, previously published material. We are indeed "parasites of our precursors." It's merely a matter of degree.

What further clouds the matter is the phenomenon of legitimate reinvention. This likewise happens all the time.

Anyone who has deeply studied the curious and fitful history of tricks, sleights, and subtleties, tracking them back to their lairs, discovers the amazing links, strong influences, points of inspiration, and direct derivations that exist. It's truly mind-boggling. And it generally results in what I call "combinatorial creativity." It is and has been rampant in magicdom for a long, long time.

Even when you closely examine the work (in detail) of our supposedly "original" thinkers, after all the dots are connected, their material is less original than assumed.
Even the work of our revered teachers, Marlo and Vernon, reveal surprising and unexpected "connections" to past works. This kind of phenomena smacks of what gossipists are wont to call "theft" and shameless "borrowing." So it goes...

However...

...We should nevertheless be intrigued by all "ancestral ties" and we should then try to more precisely figure out what all our influential, glorious "parasites" bring to the table. Where would we be without them?

Side-bar: When Frank Garcia initially published MILLION DOLLAR CARD SECRETS, I PRIVATELY sent him a long list of omitted credits. These, as many of you know, were ultimately included (without credit to me) in Frank's second (green) book. In the meantime, Frank was very displeased with me for pointing out all the missing credits.
Regardless, all my vis-a-vis sessions with Frank were always interesting, stimulating, and cordial. Don't get me wrong. We still disagreed about many, many things and I never gave him a "pass" regarding the subject of those "credits."

I feel the same way regarding other "borrowers" who fail to honor their precursors.

Although I don't fancy myself to be a historian or high-ranking member of the Credit Police, I am, despite what my detractors contend, interested in revealing the evolution of ideas. I'm equally intrigued by the process wherein and whereby our creative gentry quarrel, cooperate, and (most of all) collaborate in acknowledged and unacknowledged ways.

One could do worse...and I often do.

Onward...
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Postby Andy Hurst » 09/07/01 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Jon Racherbaumer:
......One could do worse...and I often do.
Onward...


If you smell l l l l l l what the Rock.... is cookin'


;)
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Postby Ryan Matney » 09/07/01 01:59 AM

Mr. Racherbaumer,

Do I understand you right? Are you saying that despite what any given writer has done (or not done) regarding Credits, we should try to look with an open mind at what they HAVE contributed, after sorting out the actual linage and history?
Do I read you right? :confused:
Best,
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Postby Matthew Field » 09/07/01 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Jon Racherbaumer:
Although I don't fancy myself to be a historian or high-ranking member of the Credit Police,


Even if Jon doesn't feel he is a historian, others (I, for instance) would disagree. In his "Swipe" journal, in essays such as "Deconstructing Harry" and throughout his career, Jon has been taking on the crediting issue. I have disagreed with him (as, for example, on the "Shank Shuffle") but there are few people more willing to track the ephemeral credit to its lair.

This is not a pursuit with the goal of "Nyah nyah -- caught you!" bully-ism. Rather, it is an approach in which the search, and its results, lead to a better understanding of our craft.

I highly recommmend Jon's new website, http://www,jonracherbaumer.com where members can find tricks, essays, historical data and, yes, in a section titled "Provenance," crediting discussions. Non-members will also find much to keep their magical minds occupied.

For me, this is heaven.

(My $150 to Harry Lorayne is already in the mail.)

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Postby Jamie Badman » 09/07/01 10:55 AM

...and if you join Jon's site, as a member you'll be able to access some very cool effects too, including Tomas Blomberg's 'Lucky 14' which is simply outstanding. Worth the years membership on its own in my opinion.

Then you also get the downloadable lecture notes etc... can't go wrong.

Jamie.
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Postby Jon Racherbaumer » 09/07/01 02:13 PM

Re Ryan's query: Yes, Ryan, initially read and then study a magic book based on its prima facie merits. This is the initial act of discovery. During this period you can explore the innate strong points of the book's tricks and whether or not any of them are relevant to your needs and tastes. Afterwards, if you are so inclined, you can track the ancestral links of each trick and find its genealogy. For example, the origins of a great trick such as "Out of This World" are more complicated than you think. We largely credit Paul Curry and correctly so, but there are other roots traceable to John Scarne and Oscar Weigle. (This, by the way, is not an attempt to diminish or discredit Curry's significant contribution; however, it demonstrates that nothing--and I mean "nothing"!--is created in a vacuum.)

Re the Shank Shuffle: Because I EDITED this lamentable and controversial book, many magicians (including Herb Zarrow) assumed that I WROTE it. I only wrote the Foreword, where among other things I enthusiastically said: "Zarrow's Zarrow blew my mind." I also tried in places to include historical notes that were and still are responsible for most of the contentiousness and confusion. Although, at the time, I wanted to "soften" Marlo's hard-edged manifesto, Marlo had the final word and his treatise was derived from 253 pages of hand-written notes.

One of my great regrets is that Zarrow and Marlo never sat down vis-a-vis to resolve and clarify their differences on this matter. Over the years I have privately and publicly expressed my respect for Herb Zarrow as a man and magician. I've also expressed these sentiments to him face-to-face. And I've also expressed my sincere regret, apologizing for anything I might have done to hurt his image or his feelings.

As it stands, I'm in the process of writing a detailed and unbiased history of Riffle Shuffle Technique, which (I hope) will put this matter at rest and put the rest into a proper perspective.

Time will tell.
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Postby Steve Bryant » 09/07/01 02:53 PM

I hope your riffle shuffle tome can be as complete as possible. For example, Marlo had some early riffle shuffle documents for $50 each when I was a child, and the price still seems expensive, but whatever his method was never seems to have caught on. I have always been curious, but never $50 curious. And Richard recently mentioned some secret gambler riffle shuffle techniques. What, I wonder, must they be? Re in-the-hands false shuffles from another thread here, Lennart Green's in-the-hands Triumph shuffle on his videos looks great. And while rambling, I've never quite understood why the Zarrow so outfavors Triumph. I've seen it done by some of the biggest names in card magic, and it always looks to me like a Zarrow shuffle whereas Triumph looks like a real shuffle. We all have our biases.
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Postby Guest » 09/07/01 04:28 PM

Alot of people actually perform the Zarrow shuffle poorly. I have seen the move totally butchered. In my opinion, alot of its deceptiveness is when it goes under a block of several cards (at least 3) rather than just 1 card.

I also agree that if you were to do a triumph effect, it is more deceptive to do a push through or a strip out shuffle than to Zarrow shuffle under one card.

Sorry I hijacked the thread about Harry Lorayne. I am sure his book will be great.

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Ennis ]
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Postby Bill Wheeler » 09/17/01 10:26 AM

This weekend I received a postcard from Harry Lorayne confirming that he has received my order. He also said that the book would not be printed until November.
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Postby Richard Kaufman » 09/17/01 05:32 PM

The printer is on a 7 week schedule at the moment. I know that because The Lost Pages of John Northern Hilliard, as well as several reprints of my earlier books, are going through the mill at the same time.
Harry's book is larger, and so there is more potential for mistakes ... more pages, more boo-boos.
Early November looks like a good bet; ditto for The Lost Notebooks of Hilliard
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