Mysterious book

[Robert Allen]

Well I'd like one, if for no other reason than the punnish title, but I'm not going to pay scalpers for it. I'm sure curious as to whether this isn't some form or interesting social experiment by Mr. Maven.

[Bill Palmer]

I purchased a copy of the book as soon as I learned that it was going to be published. It arrived this morning.

Knowing Max as well as I do, I knew that he must have had something of value to offer the magic fraternity. Considering how much of value he has given us in the past for so little money, in many cases, I felt that even if only one secret were revealed, it would be worth it.

The contents of the book were not revealed to me ahead of time. However, they were not a secret to me, either. Nevertheless, to find the depth to which Brother Maven has researched this secret was worth the price of the book to me.

It may not be to someone else, but hey! Different horses, different courses.

Ars longa, vita brevis.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Magicam:
Jonathan T. wrote:

is "Crimson King" a reference to the group and album of similar name?

I think the name of the group was actually King Crimson - not a bad band either.

They did have a track called (if memory serves) At the Court of the Crimson King. So Crimson King and King Crimson would both be valid references.

Dave

[NCMarsh]

This wonderfully unpleasant little book arrived at chez Marsh this morning...

Had I known the secret, I may not have purchased it. That would have been a mistake. Mr. Minch's comments about knowing the secret before reading the book are, in my view, dead on -- it is a lot like hearing the punchline before the setup.

The amount of work that went into this is staggering.

N.

[Eric Rose]

I received my copy and immediately set to reading it. A few pages in I realized what I was reading and became absolutely giddy. I could barely wait to turn the next page. I can honestly say it was one of the most inspirational reads I've done in ages. It thoroughly invigorated me.

Thank you, Mssrs. Maven and Minch, for the work, the production values, and the secret. I am proud to add this book to my library.

Eric Rose

[Guest]

I don't understand something!
On ebay there is a copy of the "PROTOCOLS" which is going for 250 dollars.
In the description it says that it is the only copy signed by both the author and the publisher.
Is it possible?
Very strange.

[Dustin Stinett]

You left out a key word: "...only known copy..."

That could easily mean that it is the only known copy as far as the sell is concerned.

Had I asked Mr. Minch to sign my copy as well, I suspect he would have agreed. In fact, I didn't think of it, I was so happy to get the number I wanted!

Dustin

[Guest]

Dustin,

What number did you ask for?

I'm still waiting for mine.

[magicam]

Dustin, you are correct in how you have parsed the words of the Ebay seller when it comes to the "only known" phrase, but IMHO it still wreaks of misleading or sensationalistic advertising, and is an insult to the intelligence of buyers. I wonder what Minch thinks knowing his signature is being hawked in such a manner? Clay

[Dustin Stinett]

Clay: I agree--it's a typical marketing ploy I see all the time. The perpetrator simply gets to say, "Well, I didn't lie."

Dustin
(Who loves, and received, the number 13).

[Garry Hayes]

Wowweee! I got my multiple copies in today. anybody want a copy at $100.00 postpaid? Nice bookbinding. Max Maven signature.
Email me and let me know.

As far as letting the secret out - what does it matter if someone buys it from me, someone on Ebay, or straight from Hermetic Press? The book is still the same. The secret is still the same. The info in the book is still the same. The person that pays $100.00 for a book that originally sold for $50.00 is more apt to keep the secret to themself also. This book has no instructions supplied.

Email me if you want a copy - just in time for Christ mas - mrmagician@bellsouth.net .

G arry Hayes / Nashville, TN

[Evan Shuster]

Count me in (I just sent you an e-mail)! The suspense has finally gotten to me (and I, for one, am good at keeping a secret).

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by antiquemagic:
Wowweee! I got my multiple copies in today. anybody want a copy at $100.00 postpaid? Nice bookbinding. Max Maven signature.
Email me and let me know.

I find that distasteful.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

[Robert Allen]

"distasteful"

Yeah, me too. But I'm not surprised. I'm more surprised that the publisher didn't make at least a mild attempt to ensure 1 per customer though.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Robert Allen:
"distasteful"...

I like a good joke:

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Much of the commentary speaks to the business of magic. And the culture which fosters such.

Does this sort of "demand" marketing have utility outside of magic and perhaps beanie babies?

[Garry Hayes]

John and Robert,

Calm down fellows. I have paid double and triple the original cost for several short print magic books, similar to the Protocol book. I was actually glad to get them at the inflated prices I paid. I was glad to see someone else had bought multiples. That allowed me to get a copy.

Those that purchased Protocol from Hermetic Press, purchased them blind, not knowing what they were getting. I am not going to sell any at this time (except one to Evan). I would like to make a prediction and say the cost will escalate to $250.00 - $300.00 a copy in less than three months. There are only 500 copies. Many are sitting on several copies. I must add that there were full page ads in major magic magazines advertising this book. So everyone had a chance to get one - at least 500 people had a chance. It is a neat book. Good Luck in finding a copy.

Yes, my email address did have fatal errors. It should be corrected by now. My original post was posted as a joke. I really did not expect to have any "takers".


G arry Hayes

[Richard Lane]

I was thinking tulips not beanies.

I hope Mssrs Minch & Maven have been chronicaling this bold campaign from conception to incu-Ebation.

[Richard Hatch]

Originally posted by antiquemagic:
Many are sitting on several copies. I must add that there were full page ads in major magic magazines advertising this book. So everyone had a chance to get one - at least 500 people had a chance.

As soon as the first individual bought multiple copies, the number of people having a chance to purchase them from the publisher at the publisher's price decreased from 500. Given that more than one person purchased multiple copies, one reportedly as many as 5, I'd guess only 450 or so were able to obtain their copies on the publisher's terms. I understand that by the time the full page ad appeared in LINKING RING, all 500 copies had already been reserved. I also understand that the advertisements in other publications were pulled once they became moot. So really only those who received "advance word" via the publisher's emailing, website and word of mouth (such as this forum) had a chance to obtain copies and then only if they acted promptly. I'm not complaining, I got mine (and am well pleased with it, I might add). But if I were a collector of magical literature who did not have access to internet resources and was rebuffed upon attempting to order after finding out about the book belatedly (through no fault of one's own), I'd likely be a bit miffed...

Some of those who purchased the book exclusively for the "secret" will likely be reselling their copies once the secret is known to them, diminishing whatever "value" that secret might have had. I predict prices will settle down around $100 or less once the nature of said "secret" becomes more widely known...

[magicam]

Garry:

Weve helped each other out in the past and Ive very much enjoyed my private exchanges with you. On the other hand, you have voiced your opinions strongly here. I hope the following criticism is accepted in the spirit of a candid but amicable exchange of views, for criticizing you is not done with any glee.

I dont like it when folks stock up on multiple (as opposed to maybe two, one for reading and one for collecting, perhaps) copies of a book with profit in mind. Admittedly, one could argue that this problem starts with the publisher, and that a publisher should limit the number of copies sold to a private party. However, Garry, unless the publisher limited sales to one copy per person, it is obviously incorrect to say that 500 people had their chance to buy a copy if there were several people who purchased multiple copies. The math doesnt add up.

But if you are going to be criticized for this mini-commercial venture of yours, then at least it should also be said that you are not being a hypocrite about it. It sounds like youve faced the same problem with others hoarding a book for profit, but instead of whining about it, you have ponied up the inflated price and have been grateful for the chance to get a copy. So at least you are consistent in your view, whether it hurts you or helps you. Ill give you that.

Back to the question of whether or not Hermetic Press should have limited the number of copies sold to one person. Every publisher Ive talked to has told me that publishing magic books is risky business. Although there are exceptions, I would guess that a publisher generally has no idea if a magic book will be a hit or not. He/she might be relieved to sell multiple copies. 500 copies may not be a very large print run, but it also doesnt seem like an unusually small one either for a magic book. Perhaps Hermetic Press has promised in its ads not to reprint the book. But if it hasnt, theres nothing to keep it from doing a reprint, in which event watch how fast the hoarders start dumping copies.

Clay

P.S. The foregoing was drafted and submitted before I read Richard's post above - guess a refresh of the web page may be helpful before sending a post! Richard, if you get this, please call me re your voice-mail. C.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Magicam:
I dont like it when folks stock up on multiple (as opposed to maybe two, one for reading and one for collecting, perhaps) copies of a book with profit in mind.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But your post prompts me to ask whether whether that extends to other items. A while ago, when buying claret en primeur, I bought quite a few cases from one property, with the definite intention of selling some of them later for profit. (Actually, I enjoyed it so much that they were all consumed. And without any regrets. But the intention had been there.)

Given that that was also a limited edition item (in that nobody can ever manufacture any more wine of that year from that property), were my intentions "bad"?

In fact, the product that I purchased for profit was more limited-edition than the book, since later copies of the book could be printed, if necessary. (They won't be, but they could be.)

I don't really see why purchasing for profit is deemed bad. But I sympathise with people who were unable to purchase the book.

(By the way, I didn't purchase one copy of the book, let alone several copies.)

Dave

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Dave Le Fevre:

In fact, the product that I purchased for profit was more limited-edition than the book, since later copies of the book could be printed, if necessary. (They won't be, but they could be.)

You are comparing the wine industry with the magic industry? And comparing a bottle of wine with a magic book? Sorry, I know your intentions were to show how one is no worse than the other, but I think your analogy falls short.

I didn't say someone should not -- or be forbidden -- to do such a thing. Even though Stephen could have instituted a limit and he didn't, I still find it distasteful in this case, especially given that there were only 500 copies to begin with.

Then again, this has been (and continues to be) an interesting experiment in how magicians in 2005 behave when handed the opportunity to obtain a highly limited edition item from a respected author and publisher.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

[Guest]

... and perhaps this leads us to a larger topic
(perhaps for another thread) of the Pimping of Magic.

The current trend of television Magic shows becoming commercials for the effects they will sell to the general public is something I think worthy of discussion.

- entity

[Jon Elion]

I bought two copies of the book. One goes to my personal collection, and the other will sit in my very short "Pay it Forward" pile until the right moment arrives. I have done the same thing with Juan Tamariz's Mnemonica, with The Magic of Ascanio, and with several children's books of magic. Here's how it works; at the right moment and with the right deserving individual, I give them the book as a gift. But there is a big "string" attached; at some time in the future they must perform a similar random act of kindness for one or more deserving souls. Not an idea that is original with me; I stole it from the movie "Pay It Forward". So far I have given away several of the children's books, and one autographed copy of Mnemonica. I know that the value of those books will be multiplied many times over by their new owners.

Don't bother with the cute comments claiming to be a "deserving individual" and asking for copies. As the old joke goes, "A wallet has been found; all those claiming to have lost it please form a line on the right".

[Guest]

Originally posted by John LeBlanc:
You are comparing the wine industry with the magic industry? And comparing a bottle of wine with a magic book? Sorry, I know your intentions were to show how one is no worse than the other, but I think your analogy falls short.

I'n not comparing any industry with any other industry.

Nor am I comparing any product with any other product.

I'm merely wondering whether or not buying for investment an item that's available in strictly limited quantities is an ethical thing to do. I could have done so without citing my own purchases. But it was own purchases that made me ponder the question, and that's why I mentioned them.

I still maintain that it's a general question, regardless of the industry and regardless of the product.

Dave

PS - I love your blog, John. I check it daily.

PPS - If and when you sell limited-edition excerpts from your blog, I'll only buy one, and not for investment.

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Jon Elion:
Here's how it works; at the right moment and with the right deserving individual, I give them the book as a gift. But there is a big "string" attached; at some time in the future they must perform a similar random act of kindness for one or more deserving souls. Not an idea that is original with me; I stole it from the movie "Pay It Forward".

For years I've done basically the same thing, though with what I would consider to be great beginners books and done for people who show a sincere interest in learning magic: Henry Hay's "Amateur Magician's Handbook"; Hugard & Braue's "Royal Road..."; Jerry Mentzer's "Counts, Cuts, Moves, and Subtlety"; Wilson's Big Book; Ammar's book, and the occasional set of Tarbells (I don't even have a set at the moment. Time for a call to my friends at H&R.)

I mention this not for attaboys -- I don't need them, I don't want them, and it's not like I'm curing cancer or anything -- but rather to add another voice to this "program" and maybe entice a few more magicians to participate. There are plenty of ways to help magic grow and I think this is one of them.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Dave Le Fevre:
I'm merely wondering whether or not buying for investment an item that's available in strictly limited quantities is an ethical thing to do. I could have done so without citing my own purchases. But it was own purchases that made me ponder the question, and that's why I mentioned them.

I still maintain that it's a general question, regardless of the industry and regardless of the product.

I think it's a damned fine question to ask, and I'm not berating you for asking it.

When I told The Cute Redhead about the book and how copies were already starting to show up on eBay -- thanks to multiple copy speculative purchases -- she remarked (without any prompting) that she thought that was unfair for people to purchase multiple copies since there were already so few to go around. Her moral "gut check" told her there was something inherently wrong with that in this case, and I happen to agree.

This cottage industry of magic has benefitted greatly from the communications miracle provided by nearly ubiquitous Internet access, but it has also taken it's knocks, too. A book that previously sold for a couple of dollars -- and rightly so -- skyrockets to hundreds of dollars because a few people ask questions about it ("Cards as Weapons"). On the other hand, you have to use a handgun to force some people to even pick up a copy of Henry Hay's book -- let alone read it -- which to this day can be found for just a couple of dollars when its value is easily in the hundreds.

Originally posted by Dave Le Fevre:
PPS - If and when you sell limited-edition excerpts from your blog, I'll only buy one, and not for investment.

"Not for investment"?! Oh, that hurts. Still, I'll pass this along to Mr. Minch later this week... :) (Thanks for the kind words. )

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

[Guest]

We seem to be in accord, John. In conjuring and in other industries, people buy multiple limited-edition items for investment, and that seems unfair when there aren't enough to go round in the first place.

If such activity needs to be prevented, that's up to the seller. (As I've encountered in the wine industry.)

And regarding your comment on Henry Hay's book, it's not only in conjuring circles that everybody wants to acquire "what's hot" but won't go near other equally good items.

My not for investment comment meant that I'd keep it - too valuable to me to sell it.

Dave

[Countelmsley]

I'm just veeeery curious about that book. I' m a big fan of Maven and Minch and their work is always outstanding. The material they offer to the community is always a great bargain, regardless of the price...

Is it possible, at all, to give us a hint of an idea of what the book is about? I suppose it' s about presentation and theory and such...

I' d understand if you cant talk about it without giving too much away.

And I think the selling of the book on e-bay and other places is completely unacceptable. I just dont get it... Buy your copy, enjoy it, learn from it and cherish it and, when the time comes, maybe, "pay it forward" as it' s been said a few posts ago.

[Brad Henderson]

If I have a rare poster on my wall, and see one - a duplicate - at an estate sell going cheaply, and buy it, am I doing wrong also? Afterall, there will be no more made, and there are definately magicians who are interested. They just didn;t know about the sale and missed out. Am I doing wrong by not passing up the deal when I can use it to either trade for something with which to build my collection or sell for cash to buy something to build my collection?

Seems to me that anytime a magic dealer or collector has a duplicate of anything which they intend at some point to sell, this is to be condemned?

Or is it only when it comes to buying new products that are released on the market?

Or are dealers and collectors and regular guys to be held to a different standard?

There is only so much gold in the world, but if I buy some and sit on it hoping its value to acrue before I sell it, is that wrong? Seems if anything I am contributing the the very laws of supply and demand that make secondary marketplaces work. Is there really a difference in investing in magic one thinks will acrue in value or in precious metals? Or should we only buy items we think will loose value in order to be ethically right (or limit ourselves in smart purchases)?

Yes/no?

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Brad Henderson:
If I have a rare poster on my wall, and see one - a duplicate - at an estate sell going cheaply, and buy it, am I doing wrong also? Afterall, there will be no more made, and there are definately magicians who are interested. They just didn;t know about the sale and missed out. Am I doing wrong by not passing up the deal when I can use it to either trade for something with which to build my collection or sell for cash to buy something to build my collection?

Do I think it'd be wrong to pick up this poster with an eye towards selling it at a profit later? Of course not. But I don't think that's in the same category as this situation at all.

Coming out of the gate, there were only 500 copies made available. It cannot be honestly argued that anyone believed there would be more copies than buyers -- not for something from Maven and Minch.

It's my opinion that in this case it is morally wrong to purchase additional copies with the intent to take advantage of a secondary market any sane person knew would emerge immediately simply because there were so few copies and so many potential buyers. And that's mostly because it deprived a number of people from obtaining their own copy simply because those copies available to pre-order were being depleted by multiple-copy buyers, not because of individual demand. That's all.

Look, I'm as pro-capitalism as anyone you can meet, but I also believe in social ecology. And I'm not going to judge anyone beyond stating that I think it was not a nice thing to do to fellow magicians. Being not nice is not a crime, but I find it is a useful barometer of ethics and integrity.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

[magicam]

John Leblanc wrote:

It cannot be honestly argued that anyone believed there would be more copies than buyers -- not for something from Maven and Minch

If thats true, then perhaps some of the focus on the normative elements of this discussion should be on them is anyone prepared to argue that Maven (if he had any say in how the book was distributed) and Minch fell short in fulfilling their duties? For if John is correct, then they produced a book for which demand far exceeded supply and then permitted non-retailers to buy multiple copies, thereby exacerbating the problem.

For my part, Im not convinced that a quick sell-out was such a no-brainer, but to the extent it was, then what duty was owed by the author/publisher? The condemned multiple-copy buyers werent doing anything that they werent enabled to do by the publishers distribution policies.

If the last group of posts demonstrate anything to me, it is the inchoate nature of precisely defining proper behavior in a capitalistic society. Although I think most of Brads examples are not apt to the hoarding situation being discussed here, he does point out the difficulty in where to draw the line.

Clay

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Magicam:
If the last group of posts demonstrate anything to me, it is the inchoate nature of precisely defining proper behavior in a capitalistic society. Although I think most of Brads examples are not apt to the hoarding situation being discussed here, he does point out the difficulty in where to draw the line.

Well, like most everything else these days it seems, that line is not determined by the corporate membership of the magic community as a whole, but rather a personal decision; each man does what is right in his own eyes. If we ever had anything that could be akin to "community standards" I don't see much evidence of it today.

This issue is a small subset of the never-ending debate of what is and is not ethical behavior.

I spoke at length with Stephen this afternoon. I told him I was happy with my purchase, disappointed in the secondary market that sprouted like mushrooms after a rainstorm. And we agreed that it was nice to see the request to keep the contents hush-hush was, largely, being observed.

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

[Robert Allen]

Magicam, NO, I am most heartily NOT willing to say that Messrs. Minch and Maven fell short of their "duty" howsoever that may be defined. To use an overly odious comparison: that's like blaming a cop for when criminals commit a crime. It's the criminal that did it, and the blame lies with them.

But words like blame, duty, criminal, etc. are all way overboard here I think. It's more a case of "it's just too bad..." I can't help but be reminded of the story of Charley and the Chocolate Factory. Willy Wonka ran a campign for a very small number of kids to get the golden ticket, to allow them in on a tour of the never-seen secrets of Wonkas factory. One by one the ticket holders were eliminated due to their own greed. Finally the one left, Charley, was given the factory/business as Wonka felt that he would be the best caretaker.

In some sense I can't help but wonder if this book is sort of like the Golden Ticket. If I was Max Maven I'd find this experiement in social anthropology to be quite fascinating.

John, "social ecology". Boy I really like that phrase. I've never heard it before, but I'll sure use it in the future.

[Guest]

It appears a lot of dumping is going on right now on eBay. Both by people who bought multiple copies and those who were not satisfired with the book.

However, I have a feeling that once the books get into the right hands, owners won't be willing to part with their copies for anything less than many times the prices we are seeing on eBay presently.

[Bill Palmer]

Originally posted by Magicam:
Dustin, you are correct in how you have parsed the words of the Ebay seller when it comes to the "only known" phrase, but IMHO it still wreaks of misleading or sensationalistic advertising, and is an insult to the intelligence of buyers. I wonder what Minch thinks knowing his signature is being hawked in such a manner? Clay

I don't think it's an insult to the intelligence of buyers. Dustin figured it out, you figured it out. So, you're intelligent.

The question is whether anyone will figure that Stephen Minch's signature is worth $100 - $200. If so, I suppose he could be persuaded for a small fee to autograph books.

[Bill Palmer]

Has anyone stopped to think about how silly some of this quibbling is? You would think this book was a gallon of drinking water that someone who was a victim of a hurricane needed for survival, or perhaps one of those 50 pound sacks of sugar that nobody was supposed to have under their bed during WW II.

It's a book. There are 500 copies. A lot of them will be sold to other people. That's the way it goes. For some books, 500 is a large number of copies. For others, it's not enough.

Trust me. As valuable and interesting as this little book is, if you were thirsty, you would go for the gallon of water.

You would think this thing was a G.D. Beanie Baby. Or a Pog.

[Bob Walder]

Perhaps a good thing for the publisher to do would be to state that "in case demand exceeds supply, buyers will be limited to one copy per person" - that way, people could pre-order multiple copies of they so desired, and if the demand fell short of the print run, they would receive all their copies. In the case of demand exceeding supply, 500 different individuals would have received one copy each.

Of course, undoubtedly there would have been more than a few who had wives and friends order on their behalf, but such a policy would probably have resulted in a wider distribution. It also covers the publisher's back in case of lack of demand from 500 different individuals.

Too late now - maybe next time.

Oh, and my opinion - FWIW - if the publisher is not going to put any such limits on buyers, then it is just sour grapes to berate those who were quick enough off the mark to grab a few copies with the intent to profit from them.

And no, I didn't get one either, and I would have liked one. But I was too late, wasn't I? C'est comme ca....

[Guest]

The Rocks of The Elders of Magic

Announcing a pleasantly attractive and decorative little pile of rocks, adorning my kitchen table, that will, within the next several weeks, be happily distributed to the magic fraternity. They dont do anything but each has a single secret mark that can make you One Thousand Dollars!

For many weeks I have sat and stared at this little pile of rocks, (it turns out there are 123 of them), and, gradually, generosity welled up in my heart and I have decided to share these with my little magic friends* everywhere!

So, for a short time, I am offering the magic fraternity the opportunity to help me GET MY ROCKS OFF my table

These stones, (no offense to any users out there), are so unusual Im not going to tell you what I think you ought to do with them, (I shouldnt say them, since Im allowing only one to a customer), so, what to do with IT. Suffice to say, if you take advantage of this limited offer youll have something that few others do A ROCK OF THE ELDERS OF MAGIC

You can only order your rock from me. And dont wait too long this limited edition is expected to disappear quickly!

Only 123, (one hundred and twenty three), will be offered for sale, all inscribed with a secret number by me, Paul Chosse (O.K., my indomitable integrity forces me to admit that if I sell all of these Ill probably find a few more). Price per rock is only $49.95! And that means its five cents cheaper than you-know-what!

And for you cheapskates who resent this price remember that $1,000.00 Bucks! Unlike those other guys, Im willing to give you the secret of how to get that 1 large right now:

If anyone offers you $1,000.00 Dollars for your rock TAKE IT!

*Goyim purchases welcome!

[Robert Allen]

Hmm, is that rock offer a hint as to what the secret in the book is?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by pchosse:
...If anyone offers you $1,000.00 Dollars for your rock TAKE IT!

Ethics?

"Supply meet Demand."
"Demand meet Supply."

Where supply meets demand is called price.