Copperfield Raid

[Guest]

When people look at this sort of activity by the FBI and the media they should remember the name Richard Jewell, the security guard who was supposedly the Olympic Park Bomber. His name was "leaked" to the press which conveniently took pressure off the FBI to find someone to blame for the outrage. Speculation, innuendo, outright character assassination and trial by media ran rampant. While he collected large sums of money from NBC and other media outlets for their moronic and massively biased reporting, it clearly ruined the guy's life and no doubt contributed to his early death recently. I don't think he saw 50.

Copperfield is successful, wealthy, world famous and the perfect target for this sort of thing. Believe little to nothing that you read or hear about this matter because everyone involved in this will be speaking to their own agenda. The media will play their usual game and sensationalize anything they can to boost circulation giving purchase to rumor and speculation, too often reporting nonsense as fact when it is nothing of the sort. The truth may come out or it may not. Given what I've seen over the last few years, I think David is in for a rough road unless he gets his story out in front and very quickly.

[Guest]

Well said.

As for the money, the only thing I wonder about is whether he'll be in trouble for keeping a large amount of cash like that. Isn't it technically illegal to keep more than about $10,000 in cash outside of a bank? It has something to do with regulation of the national money supply. That said, I can certainly see the desireability of keeping some cash on hand like that.

[Guest]

Thank you.

As I understand it, deposits of more than $10,000 are reported by the bank to the government. If you take more than $10,000 cash out of the country, it must be reported to the authorities as you leave. The amount may have changed recently, but that's my current understanding. I'm happy to be corrected if someone has more current information.

When I helped Randi with his book on faith healers I had two sources tell me that Peter Popoff has $2 million PLUS a lot of expensive jewelry in his home walk-in safe. Randi reported it, but to my knowledge, nothing happened. Popoff did later declare bankruptcy, but I don't know if the contents of his safe were ever inventoried.

[Pete Biro]

Re the Leno joke. One of Leno's top, long-time writers IS A MAGICIAN and friend of mine.

[Rick Ruhl]

David use the 'cop-a-feel' joke on himself when he did the ring flight to shoelace back in the 90's.

[Brian Marks]

Its Leno's job to make fun of what's in the media. Not a big deal.

[Guest]

My understanding, purely from reading the papers over the years, is that in these kinds of situations, the police/FBI descends on the scene like a plague of locusts. They use a lot of guys because 1) they don't know what they're going to find, 2) some guys are along for the training, and/or 3) everyone's happy to get out from behind their desk. Having descended, they take anything and everything that might be useful: money, papers, and especially computers. It's just the formula. And I don't think it's "leaked" to the media, because I see the inventory recounted so often by spokesmen on the news.

So I don't think Copperfield is receiving particularly unusual treatment here. The fact is, to be accused is not a fun thing in America. But I'd rather be accused here than in any other country.

///ark

[Guest]

It is illegal to transport more than $10,000 in currency (or travellers checks, etc) into, or out of, the U.S. without filing a form with the U.S. Customs Service. (Similar laws have just passed in the European Union).
But there are no laws saying you have to keep your money in a bank, or limiting the amount of money you can have lying around your house. In the war on drugs, there are some alarming asset-seizure laws. Cash, cars, and other assets are routinely seized, and the eventual dismissal or even acquittal of the criminal charge often does not result in the return of the assets. These laws carry no presumption of innocence. They're ridiculous. And why cash would have been seized in the Copperfield raid -- which is not drug related -- is a real mystery.
I'm also not sure why Randi would have reported Popoff having money in a house safe, unless he believed the money was obtained illegally. There's nothing illegal about keeping huge sums of money in your home.

[Guest]

I found this at a Las Vegas Newspaper Website (Review Journal):

A Seattle woman told police that Copperfield had raped her in the Bahamas, the Fox News Channel reported Friday.

Seattle police referred calls to the Seattle FBI office, where a spokeswoman declined to comment because of the ongoing investigation.
The magician owns an island resort in the Bahamas called Musha Cay at Copperfield Bay, which he bought last year.

Federal agents on Wednesday searched Copperfield's Las Vegas warehouse on West Russell Road and the theater where he performs at the MGM Grand. Copperfield performed his two scheduled shows that night.

Latimer Bardens

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
then there's the reference to the memory chip in a camera (as opposed to the tapes or discs used for the data).

I'd say that's most likely tech-idiot speak for a memory card. Just think... film.

[Guest]

It might not be illegal to have that kind of money in your safe but I am sure it will raise red flags at the IRS.......

I do presume David to be innocent at this point and feel like others that it more likely has to do with him buying the island in the Bahamas....

Jay Leno was doing his job and actualy quite funny but I am sure that David did not need this kind of attention.....

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Alexander:
Thank you.

As I understand it, deposits of more than $10,000 are reported by the bank to the government. If you take more than $10,000 cash out of the country, it must be reported to the authorities as you leave. The amount may have changed recently, but that's my current understanding. I'm happy to be corrected if someone has more current information.

When I helped Randi with his book on faith healers I had two sources tell me that Peter Popoff has $2 million PLUS a lot of expensive jewelry in his home walk-in safe. Randi reported it, but to my knowledge, nothing happened. Popoff did later declare bankruptcy, but I don't know if the contents of his safe were ever inventoried.

Your statement about the in re. the cash reporting to US Customs is correct.


In addition, Under the Bank Secrecy Act, their exists the currency transaction report (CTR). This report that U.S. financial institutions are required to file for each deposit, withdrawal, exchange of currency, or other payment or transfer, by, through, or to the financial institution which involves a transaction in currency of more than $10,000. Used in this context, currency means the coin and/or paper money of any country that is designated as legal tender by the country of issuance. Currency also includes U.S. silver certificates, U.S. notes, Federal Reserve notes and official foreign bank notes.
On 16 March 2004 the FDIC amended the CTR to reflect the following, "The Department of the Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) has released a new Currency Transaction Report (CTR) form - FinCEN Form 104 - which replaces the Internal Revenue Service's (IRS) CTR Form 4789. Banks and other institutions are required to complete a Currency Transaction Report to help law enforcement agencies detect and prevent money laundering and other illegal activities. FinCEN Form 104 is now available for use; however, banks may continue to use IRS Form 4789 until August 31, 2004.

Each financial institution must file CTR Form 104 for each deposit, withdrawal, exchange of currency or other payment or transfer by, through or to the financial institution that involves a transaction in currency of more than $10,000."


Under this act casinos and card clubs report these same transactions but on a different federal form.

The more dreaded SAR (Suspicious Activities Report) casts a wider net over bank transactions and receive much greater scrutiny from a myriad of federal bureaus.

This allows banks and other filers to prepare and file Suspicious Activity Reports (SAR). Under 12 CFR 21, national banks are required to report known or suspected criminal offenses, at specified thresholds, or transactions over $5,000 that they suspect involve money laundering or violate the Bank Secrecy Act. Similar regulations by other regulators apply to other financial institutions.

To make that report, the filing institution prepares a SAR, which it files with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) of the Department of the Treasury through the IRS Detroit Computing Center. The reports are then made available electronically to appropriate law enforcement agencies.


The more broad based SAR was muscled up by the PATRIOT Act.

Based on the information that I have seen and read to date on the sexual allegations lodged against Mr. Copperfield my personal opinion is at this time their exists no probative evidence of a criminal act.
The lady in Seattle failed to report her alleged assault to any Bahamian authority, did not seek emergency medical assistance or request a rape test kit to possibly reinforce her allegations.

So unless additional evidence surfaces it is one word against another and Mr. Copperfield will likely walk away from criminal charges with a much impaired reputation.

The Seattle woman may attempt to seek redress in equity for $$$ where the burden of proof is less that a criminal action.

I believe DC's biggest problem will be the nearly inevitable tax beef based on the $2M in his safe.
Any taxpayer is allowed to keep cash on hand.
In Mr. Copperfield's case the corporation that he created as the legal entity to hold his collections etc. and DC's personal returns will likely be called upon by those unsmiling folks at the IRS to either demonstrate that he has declared this amounts on past tax returns or was prepared to do so in his current taxable year by his estimated tax declaration(s).

WD

[Guest]

Originally posted by John Lovick:

I'm also not sure why Randi would have reported Popoff having money in a house safe, unless he believed the money was obtained illegally. There's nothing illegal about keeping huge sums of money in your home.

As I understand it, Randi wrote that to illustrate Popoff's wealth while pleading with his supporters to send in more money to support his "ministry." Popoff lived very well while many of his supporters struggled to make ends meet.

That Popoff engaged in a fraud is easily proved by the fact that he had a minion break a window in a door (I have a tape of Popoff asking if the window had been broken yet and a taped confession from the flunky that broke the window)that Popoff later went on the air and claimed had been broken by people wanting to stop him from sending bible tracts to the Soviet Union. He pulled in seveal hundred thousand dollars from that con.

I tried to get the authorities interested, but they couldn't be bothered. This was well-before Jim Bakker and his fraud that raised the public consciousness about religious hucksters.

[Randwill]

Why would the FBI be investigating a rape allegation that took place outside the United States?

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Originally posted by Randwill:
Why would the FBI be investigating a rape allegation that took place outside the United States?

The woman told Seattle police the magician raped her while she was in the Bahamas, sources said. Because the alleged incident happened abroad and the woman did not report it until she returned to the United States, Seattle authorities turned over the case to the FBI.

Cops: Seattle Woman Claims David Copperfield Raped Her - Fox News

I also liked this tidbit from a previous raid of the collection, before it was under David Copperfield's ownership:

The library was raided once before, during the previous owner's bankruptcy proceedings; seeing FBI equipment all over rare books and posters, [Ricky] Jay reportedly told an agent, "I don't care who the [censored] you are. Get your crap off those posters." Let's hope Copperfield defended his lingerie collection as fiercely.

So What Did the FBI Find When They Raided David Copperfield\'s Warehouse? His Lingerie Collection! - New York Magazine.

-Jim

[Guest]

The FBI has jurisdiction over US citizens that have been victims of criminal activity while abroad.

[Richard Kaufman]

The FBI is investigating, even though the alleged incident took place outside the United States, because the alleged victim is a US citizen.

I know David fairly well. It seems inconceivable to me that he would rape anyone. There's no reason. He's a star: there are half a dozen women in his audience at every show who'd sleep with him in a second. Rich and powerful people, particularly stars, have no shortage of bedroom company.

Why an allegation of rape would involve seizure of computer hard discs, digital cameras, and cash frankly makes no sense.

Something's fishy. I agree with Geno's post.

[Dustin Stinett]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Why an allegation of rape would involve seizure of computer hard discs

Emails between involved parties.

...digital cameras

Photos of the involved parties.

and cash

Possible evidence of a payoff.

All circumstantial evidence that could corroborate the accusation.

Dustin

[Richard Kaufman]

Why would an alleged rape victim be e-mailing the would-be attacker unless it was for blackmail?

If there are photos of the involved parties, it probably shows them in a flattering light, unless someone expects that an alleged rapist would be taking photos of his actions.

Still stinks to me.

[Guest]

"Shortage of bedroom company" probably gets boring after awhile, maybe the day called for a little resistance...Please no posts saying there is a difference between rape, and a little resistance.
---In interviews last year for the film "The Prestige" actor Hugh Jackman said Copperfield had taken him and his wife on a tour of the space.(Vegas Warehouse).."We pull up outside this sex shop and David gets out, pulls out a set of keys and walks in, and we're thinking'Oh my God, what have we got ourselves into here?' He says "Push the nipple on that mannequin over there', so I pushed it and these doors slid open and we walked into this room the size of four football fields filled with magic memorabilia" Jackman told Handbag.com.

[Roger M.]

Geez, this is David Copperfield we're talking about here, he's our boy.

At the very least, perhaps chilling out on the speculation prior to any sort of actual proof anything happened might be the order of the day.

DC has more than pulled his weight for magic in the last few decades, maybe the least we can do is give the guy a frickin' break until something that resembles actual fact shows up.......or as is far more likely, doesn't show up and the whole thing is shown to be a con.

[Guest]

This whole thing is fishy. But it goes to show you that no matter who you are, if the FBI goes after you, they will get you. The charges may not stick, but they will be really difficult to shake.

Copperfield is doing the right thing. He is keeping his mouth shut. Remember Richard Jewell? He was the man who found the bomb Eric Rudolph planted at the Atlanta olympics.

The accusation stayed with him a long time, even though he was innocent, and in fact, a hero.

Remember, David is innocent until proven otherwise.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Why would an alleged rape victim be e-mailing the would-be attacker unless it was for blackmail?

That's assuming they're looking for evidence of communications from the plaintiff, as opposed to evidence of communications sent by the defendant from that laptop, or other data stored on the laptop.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
...
Remember, David is innocent until proven otherwise.

I have to disagree on this one. We don't even know if there will be a trial so the legal context of "guilt" or "innocence" is impertinent at this time.

Instead we have something dark proffered to our imaginations by some folks who want us to gossip.

The good character of DC is being dragged through every imaginable disgusting thing anybody is lured into considering and discussing as a story which somehow connects the dots as given out by the mass media and social gossip.

How about we focus on thinking good things about DC and maybe wonder how long it will take our mass media to offer a cogent story?

[Guest]

When things like this are reported, I try to keep in mind what Mark Twain said:

"A Lie travels halfway 'round the world while Truth puts on its boots."

And that was before the Internet!

Terry

[Guest]

That was beautiful Terry...and Mark.

[Guest]

Turns out that the widely publicized initial reports contained some rather egregious misinformation.

To wit:

FBI: No $2 million taken from Copperfield's warehouse

By Mike Carter

Seattle Times staff reporter

The FBI is denying reports that it took millions in cash during a search last week of a Las Vegas warehouse belonging to illusionist David Copperfield.

A Las Vegas television station reported that agents seized $2 million in cash from a safe in Copperfield's warehouse. That report was picked up by other media nationally, including The Seattle Times.

...

National entertainment media and others have repeated the story about the seizure of money, and FBI officials are now concerned the publicity could damage their investigation and is unfair to Copperfield, who has not been charged with a crime.

"No currency was seized during our investigating activity in Las Vegas," said Seattle FBI Special Agent Robbie Burroughs. "Media reports to the contrary are false."

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
[b] ...
Remember, David is innocent until proven otherwise.

I have to disagree on this one. We don't even know if there will be a trial so the legal context of "guilt" or "innocence" is impertinent at this time.

Instead we have something dark proffered to our imaginations by some folks who want us to gossip.

The good character of DC is being dragged through every imaginable disgusting thing anybody is lured into considering and discussing as a story which somehow connects the dots as given out by the mass media and social gossip.

How about we focus on thinking good things about DC and maybe wonder how long it will take our mass media to offer a cogent story? [/b]

Hold on, there! Are you saying that Copperfield's constitutional right to the presumption of innocence does not apply until he is actually charged?

[Guest]

Bill - I think Jon's statement was meant satirically or sarcastically.

[Jeff Haas]

This looks like another case of "Crazy Person Vs. Famous Person/Corporation."

Remember the person who lied about the finger in their bowl of chili?

[Dustin Stinett]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Why would an alleged rape victim be e-mailing the would-be attacker

Richard,

Hypothetically speaking only (of course), lets say that a rape victims story as told to the authorities is such that the accused and the victim were already acquainted. She says that her attacker emailed her to invite her to a function. There they were together and photos were taken by one of her attackers people. It was after this function that, up in his hotel room, she says that the rape occurred. (Keep in mind that not all rapists hide in dark allies and stalk victims who cannot identify them. And all a woman needs to say is no, even if the attacker is a friend, or even a former lover, etc. etc. If the attacker carries out the act, its rapeor at the very least, sexual assault.) So, lets say she also says that after the event, an attack of guilty conscience hit the attacker and he contacted the victim via telephoneor even in personand offered her money.

So now, with record of the email and the photos, that part of her story is corroborated beyond any doubt. The presence of a large amount of cash, while coincidental, still adds a circumstantial piece to the puzzle. The existence of all this circumstantial evidence adds credence to her claims. Toss in any physical evidence that may have been collected, and the only thing missingfrom an evidentiary and prosecutorial point of viewis a video of the act itself.

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
Hold on, there! Are you saying that Copperfield's constitutional right to the presumption of innocence does not apply until he is actually charged?

Actually, Bill, it doesnt even apply until the accused arrives in court. Presumption of Innocence is a part of legal procedure that is afforded only in the courts. When the authorities arrest someone, they are not obliged to presume the person is innocent. Their only obligation is to inform the person why they are being taken into custody and the procedure goes forward from there.

Point in fact, nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does the phrase presumption of innocenceor one like itappear. However, the notion is arrived at from the Fifth Amendment, which includes Due Process, and the Sixth Amendment, which mentions an Impartial Jury.

If it is someones opinion that someone is guilty of a crime for which they have been accused, they are free to express that opinion. Of course, if the person being accused feels they have been libeled or slandered, they have recourse via a civil action.

Dustin

[Guest]

How can we unimagine the things we were lead to imagine by the stories we have been told? Those vague and disturbing word pictures of DC, safes full of cash and misbehavior have been foisted upon us by our trusted entertainment/news providers.

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
...Are you saying that Copperfield's constitutional right to the presumption of innocence does not apply until he is actually charged?

The notions of "presumption of innocence" and "charged" apply to a legal proceeding.

The court of the mass media (Videodrome?) has been in session ever since the news hit the wires.

I hope DC can get back on schedule with his show tour.

[Guest]

Apparently, the FBI is now reporting that there was no money seized in the raid.

[Guest]

The presumption of innocence is actually part of English common law. In other words, it's considered so obvious that it didn't need codifying in the Constitution. You don't see "thou shalt not kill" in the Constitution, either.

Here's an intereesting website that talks about this and other things "missing" from the Constitution:
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html

///ark

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
It seems inconceivable to me that he would rape anyone. There's no reason. He's a star: there are half a dozen women in his audience at every show who'd sleep with him in a second.

Sexual desire is not the motivation for all, or even many rapes.

Defending him by referring to how many women he could have sex with implies that if he didn't have all those women, then he might have done it!

I tend to agree with those who say that rape isn't usually about sex, but about violence. I'm sure most of us guys here really, really like sex. But rape? Never in a million years. It (generally) takes one sick @#$! to rape someone. David's best defense here is, as you implied, that he's not one sick @#$!, not that he's already got all the ladies he needs.

///ark

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
This whole thing is fishy. But it goes to show you that no matter who you are, if the FBI goes after you, they will get you. The charges may not stick, but they will be really difficult to shake.

How do you know that, Bill?

Hypothetically, if the FBI investigated someone and found out their quarry was completely innocent and closed the case, would we hear about it? Of course not. It's like all news - we only hear the bad stuff. So extrapolating from it is not reliable.

I knew a young FBI agent. He was a socialist, believe it or not. He said it gave him great pleasure hunting down white-collar criminals who were screwing their workers. Interesting perspective.

///ark

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Originally posted by Mark Wilden:
Hypothetically, if the FBI investigated someone and found out their quarry was completely innocent and closed the case, would we hear about it? Of course not. It's like all news - we only hear the bad stuff. So extrapolating from it is not reliable.

If the person in question is as high profile as David, then you would certainly hear something from someone about it.

-Jim

[Guest]

I used to work (on the side) as a consultant for the FBI in areas of hostage negotiation and NLP.

Their typical M.O. is "capture everyone first, sort out the bad guys later."

I'm not saying that this is good in many situations, but that's just the way they operate. Local enforcers tend to err on the side of caution and premeditated methodology.

I hope that this helps in this discussion.

HP

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jim Maloney:
If the person in question is as high profile as David, then you would certainly hear something from someone about it.
-Jim

I don't see how you could know that. Especially if the person in question didn't know about himself.

///ark

[Guest]

Here are some updates:
The FBI says they DID NOT take any cash.
The investigation seems to be based around whether the alleged incident was consentual.

Other than that, nothing more is being said.