Best chop cup?

[Guest]

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
Having to bang the cup on the table to me is necessary only if the ball/cup don't match well....

Well, then there seem to be a lot of badly matched balls and cups out there. The two I tried at Hollywood Magic Shop on Monday required a bit of a bang.

But hey, you sell a leather cup, right? That would make a bang sound at a considerably lower volume, right? And leather cups don't break....

Hey, I'm gonna look at these....

[Guest]

Originally posted by Dan Trommater:
...I've had great success using the cup in a dice stacking routine, and then bringing it back out later with the little baseball to 'play a little game' as the finalle....

I'll say! I heard of your performance at the recent Strolling Olympics at the Magic Castle. My spy tells me that you blew him out of the water entirely! He thinks you must have used Wonder Words at the end of that routine, or something along those lines....

[Pepka]

I thought we were talking about cups and not routines. But I'll add one of my favorites, that hasn't been mentioned yet. Check out Martin Lewis's routine called "cheap cup". It uses a small pringles can which and is probably the cheapest gimmicked cup you can by, (you can get it at 7-11). His presentation is based on the Don Alan routine. (Has no one mentioned the father of the chop cup yet?) And I can't forget,it concludes with one of the funnies tag lines to finish a routine.
Pepka

[Frank Starsinic]

Originally posted by David Groves:

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
[b] Having to bang the cup on the table to me is necessary only if the ball/cup don't match well....

Well, then there seem to be a lot of badly matched balls and cups out there. The two I tried at Hollywood Magic Shop on Monday required a bit of a bang.

But hey, you sell a leather cup, right? That would make a bang sound at a considerably lower volume, right? And leather cups don't break....

Hey, I'm gonna look at these.... [/b]

This is absolutely correct. There are a lot of badly matched cups/balls out there. TRUE TRUE TRUE. Just keep playing until you find something you like or buy a set from someone who cares that you get a good match.

Another great match i used was the mike rogers baseballs with a pringles can. In fact, there was a routine somewhere with exactly that setup but I have never been able to find a copy. The final load was... a sealed can of new pringles. Anyone heard of that?


Regarding banging and volume... yes, that is one of the cool features of the leather cup. You can use it virtually on any surface (except water) with or without a close-up pad. Even the glass counter at a magic shop. And your final load can be a billiard ball.

Try that with the aluminum cups... yikes.

With a bit of ingenuity, you can load a final load with one hand by picking it up with the cup and squeezing it inside the cup. Then you can hold out with one hand, cup in the air. Very disarming.

If you're careful or if the final load is resting below on another surface, you can pick it up and set it down with no noise. The load won't drop becuase it's already at the correct position.

Leather is not perfect for everything such as the liquid load, a la Loomis Routine but you can load a shot glass full of liquid and hold it inside the chop cup with one hand.

Obviously it depends on your routine which type you think is best.


Frank

Here's a link to the leather ones if anyone cares to peruse.
http://www.theambitiouscard.com/?ref=genii

[Mike Rose]

With all the talk about banging the cup down to dislodge the ball, Im surprised no one has yet mentioned Earl Nelsons routine from Mark Wilsons The Chop Cup Book. It features the fantastic, Bell Move which completely eliminates the need to bang down the cup, ever. Although it still helps to have a ball that is somewhat matched to the cup, it becomes less important. It also allows you to feel when the ball has become dislodged during the move so you know that the ball will definitely be there when you lift the cup. This book can still be found occasionally on eBay and is worth tracking down just for this one move alone.

Mike

[Guest]

Originally posted by Mike Rose:
...Im surprised no one has yet mentioned Earl Nelsons routine from Mark Wilsons The Chop Cup Book. ....

"The Chop Cup Book"? Why has no one mentioned this before? Oh, I feel so betrayed.... ;) ;) ;)

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jim Riser:
[...]
If the shot glass idea is not to be included, the shorter cups that Harold prefers work just as well - as do coffee cups like Thomas Wayne's.
[...]

I can see where someone might read the above statement and get the impression that my Coffee Chop set cannot be used with a standard shot glass in the Ron Wilson and/or Larry Jennings Chop cup routine.

This is not correct. I have performed a hybrid of the Wilson/Jennings routine many times, using a standard full-sized shot glass. I am referring to the Ron Wilson routine as published in Richard Kaufman's "The Uncanny Scot" and the Larry Jennings routine published in James Swain's "21st Century Card Magic".

Just to be clear, the depth of my Coffee Chop is more than sufficient for either routine.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Brad Jeffers]

Thomas, Where can I get one of your coffee mug chop cups? I recently purchased a coffee mug chop cup that was made by someone other than yourself and it was totally useless. The balls supplied with it would dislodge so easily, that you could barely turn the cup over without the ball falling out. :mad:

[Guest]

Originally posted by Brad Jeffers:
Thomas, Where can I get one of your coffee mug chop cups? I recently purchased a coffee mug chop cup that was made by someone other than yourself and it was totally useless. The balls supplied with it would dislodge so easily, that you could barely turn the cup over without the ball falling out. :mad:

Brad,

I occasionally - though not currently - have some. However, Hocus Pocus ( http://www.hocus-pocus.com ) always has them in stock.

Best Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Guest]

I bought one of Thomas' chop cups from Hocus Pocus after reading Pete Biro's post about it after WMS.

This cup is really cool. Both balls are magnetic, yet they do not stick to each other, so you don't have to keep track of which ball is gaffed and which one isn't. The balls only stick inside the cup, not to the top of the cup.

The balls stick securely inside the cup, but you don't have to tap the cup to dislodge them, they break free with a subtle flicking move.

I bought one more thing to use with Thomas' cup...

Head over to Collector\'s Workshop and get a sponge donut for a final load that works well with a coffee cup.

[Dan Trommater]

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Trommater:
...I've had great success using the cup in a dice stacking routine, and then bringing it back out later with the little baseball to 'play a little game' as the finalle....

Originally posted by David Groves:
I'll say! I heard of your performance at the recent Strolling Olympics at the Magic Castle. My spy tells me that you blew him out of the water entirely! He thinks you must have used Wonder Words at the end of that routine, or something along those lines....

David,

I do try to guide spectators into asking for the salt. I act like the routine is over with the tequila and then, as an after-thought, prompt them to ask for the salt. It's a great moment when they do. Who's your spy?

Dan

[Guest]

[/QUOTE] Who's your spy?
[/QB][/QUOTE]

He's on deep background. I call him Deep Throat, a nickname that suits him for a number of reasons, I understand. :D

[Johnny Mystic]

David, there is a chop cup routine out there that would probably had fit the bill for you...

Mark Jenest's 'Jiggernaut' the ad say's...It's 100% white lightnin'! In Marks new clever 'cup and ball' sobriety test, a cocktail olive repeatedly vanishes and appears under a bartenders jigger! Mark then tops it off with the surpise production of not one but two wine corks! They'll swear off the hard stuff after they see this!

I will admit I did not buy Mr. Jenest's trick, I made my own and added my own extra surprise ending with the production of a full unopened nip bottle of vodka. Tequilla could be used also.

I spent around $5 to make it and it is my favorite chop cup routine.

Johnny

[Guest]

Not necessarily the best but the first chop cup I ever used was from a routine by Eddie Joeseph published in The New Tops back in the 60's. The cup was made from a "Barrel of Monkeys" and the balls were made from the fingers of a wool glove (although I later found acrylic worked better). The cup had the "hook" part of velcro glued inside. It took a bit of knack and as I recall I had to brush the balls with a stiff brush before performing but it was a good routine and the cup served me well for quite a few years.

[Guest]

My long search is over. I have bought a chop cup recommended online here, and I'm very happy with it.

I bought Frank Starsinic's leather chop cup for $39 (see Web link above). Some of the major advantages of this cup:

*It doesn't make such a loud sound when you bang it down on a table; no closeup pad required.
*It fits a billiard-ball final load exactly. (He has smaller sizes, too.)
*It fits pretty easily into the outside jacket pocket.
*It looks like something from old Mexico, which fits the theme of my restaurant.
*It's not going to break.
*It looks pretty neat, no matter the restaurant.
*A special advantage: After secretly inserting the final load, you can squeeze the pliable leather sides and hold the cup in the air without fearing that the final load will fall. You can even lift the cup and show that nothing is under the cup while the load is in the cup, just by holding it firm by the pliable leather sides.

I've performed with the Starsinic cup for only a night, but I'm ecstatic with it.

I've been performing beginning chop cup routines for a few days now. During my recent trip to Mexico, I bought a standard dice cup in Mazatlan for $8 and taped a magnet into the bottom. Since returning to L.A. a couple weeks ago, I've been playing with that chop cup.

The awesome worker Jeff Martin gave me some great advice: Borrow a spectator's $5 bill, switch it out for a chopped crumpled bill, and use that throughout the routine. The spectator is more likely to give the bill to you at the end as a tip.

Man was that great advice! On my Friday-night restaurant gig, I quintupled my normal tips. On my Saturday-night gig, I increased it by 25% (the average at that restaurant was already high).

[Pete Biro]

Unfortuntely one of the big internet magic suppliers likes Frank's cups so much they contacted his leather worker and offered to buy HUNDREDS of them. :whack:

Thankfully, the worker said, "Sorry, you have to buy them from Frank." :)

[Jim Riser]

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Unfortuntely one of the big internet magic suppliers likes Frank's cups so much they contacted his leather worker and offered to buy HUNDREDS of them. :whack:

Thankfully, the worker said, "Sorry, you have to buy them from Frank." :)

Pete;

And some people wonder why I do not work with the big suppliers. What happened here is not atypical of some of the "big boys". :whack:

I am pleased that Frank has found an ethical supplier for some of his required work. Frank is an OK guy and does not need to be ripped off by such slime ball suppliers.

BTW - His leather chop cups are nice! :D

Jim

[Guest]

Perhaps the most unique chop cup routines isn't even perceived as a chop cup routine, but instead, a Cups & Balls routine.

I don't know if it's right to tip this, but...Johnny Ace Palmer's three-chick production at the end of his Cups & Balls routine is actually a chop cup variation. He surgically implants steel plates into the chicks' heads, and they ride under the cups the entire time.

Just thought you'd like to know.... :D :whack: :D

[David Nethery]

Originally posted by David Groves:


I don't know if it's right to tip this, but...Johnny Ace Palmer's three-chick production at the end of his Cups & Balls routine is actually a chop cup variation. He surgically implants steel plates into the chicks' heads, and they ride under the cups the entire time.

Your blatant EXPOSURE is intolerable, sir !
This is the worst example of exposure since the mad magician Al Jaffe published his infamous book .

[Bill Mullins]

Originally posted by David Groves:
I don't know if it's right to tip this, but...Johnny Ace Palmer's three-chick production at the end of his Cups & Balls routine is actually a chop cup variation. He surgically implants steel plates into the chicks' heads, and they ride under the cups the entire time.

Isn't that a lot of trouble? Wouldn't it be easier to add steel shot to their feed, like Wile E. Coyote used to do to the Road Runner?

[Frank Starsinic]

I was warned a few weeks earlier to watch out for that exact scenario so it was not really a surprise. I was half expecting it. Anyway, I saw Pete Biro at the Castle on Saturday morning and he gave me some great advice on the subject which I would put here but almost all the words are unacceptable under the forum's "no profanity" rules. :eek:

Acutally, I'm reserving judgement until I really find out what's going on.

BTW, Thanks for the nice comments David!

Frank

[Bill Duncan]

The canned Salsa idea is very good. The Ammar routine "Beenie Weenie" or Paul Harris' original "Uncanny" would be good.

Produce a lemon and lime and finally show the can has resealed itself.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jim Riser:

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
[b] Unfortuntely one of the big internet magic suppliers likes Frank's cups so much they contacted his leather worker and offered to buy HUNDREDS of them. :whack:

Thankfully, the worker said, "Sorry, you have to buy them from Frank." :)

Pete;

And some people wonder why I do not work with the big suppliers. What happened here is not atypical of some of the "big boys". :whack:

I am pleased that Frank has found an ethical supplier for some of his required work. Frank is an OK guy and does not need to be ripped off by such slime ball suppliers.
[...] [/b]

Mr. Riser,

I'm really at a loss to understand how this event qualifies the big supplier as “slime ball”, or what would make their actions a “rip off”.

The leatherworker who makes all of Frank's items is NOT his private employee. He has his own leather shop company and had been making fine leather items long before Frank approached him. The leather items Frank buys from him are not proprietary to Frank – all of them have existed long before Frank got into the business (in fact, probably before Frank was even born).

Surely the leather-working company in question should have the right to manufacture similar items for other customers. In fact, back in June of last year YOU made a big deal about this very subject, stating that any design work you do will belong to you, NOT to the guy who commissions the work. From those statements and from statements found on your website I think one can easily infer that - as the manufacturer - you prefer to control who you sell your items to, and that a single customer cannot dictate your business practices or your market.

The way I see it in this case, this “big supplier” approached the leather shop with an offer to buy large quantities of standard magic items that the leather company already manufactures. If the leather company chooses to not do business with the big supplier, so be it. But I sure can't see how offering such a business proposal could IN ANY WAY make the big supplier a “rip off” or a “slime ball”. Perhaps you can explain.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Bob Walder]

I guess the inference was that the big supplier had attempted to purchase hundreds of the identical chop cup that Frank has designed. That would qualify him as a "slime ball".

I would think that if the cup is manufactured under some sort of contract (or even a handshake) to Frank's design, that the leather-worker in question would NOT be entitled (certainly morally) to simply go and sell hundreds of that SAME design to another supplier.

Of course, if THAT "slime ball" supplier was to come up with a new design for Frank's leather-worker AND offer him more money to prioritise his work then Frank would have a different problem on his hands, and the leather-worker would be entitled to do whatever work he wished (again, providing he has not already contracted to provide a certain quantity of these cups within a certain time frame to Frank).

Hopefully a more "reasoned" view based on the fact that *I* don't have the same bug up my ass regarding Frank Starsinic that Thomas Wayne seems to have, and thus don't feel the need to have a go at Frank - either directly or obliquely - in public every time his name appears on this forum simply (it seems) because Frank does not actually manufacture his own stuff....

Bob

[Pete Biro]

Right Ace Palmer does feed his chicks steall ball bearings...

Actually, Mago Anton really does that with a fish that finds a selected card.

Funny, but ARGH...

Back to ACE....

I still roll with laughter about a gag Michael Close pulled on him.

We were working the Music City (Nashville) Magic Conclave for Tabman, and Mike, myself and Maven were on with Palmer... Just before Palmer went on Mike Close had a toy chick that PEEEPED very realistically and he slipped it under the close up table.

When Palmer came on he went nuts trying to figure out why "his" chicks were peeping so loud and wouldn't stop...

heheheheheh -- sometimes we do have fun :D

[Frank Starsinic]

I've always wanted to see Johnny Ace Palmer's routine but now that I know he loads the chicks the night before I don't know if I want to make a special trip to the Castle just for that now.

Chopped Chicks. Who'd of thunk it. Does he have to bang the cups to get them out? :whack:

I'll bet they'd feel cozier in nice leather cups.
:D

Frank

[Jeff Eline]

At Clinic in March, Harry Riser spoke about a performer, years ago, that used real chicks for cups routine and would beat the hell out of them.

I can't remember the name. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Pete??

[Guest]

Jeff,

The performer that Harry Riser was referring to was Gali-Gali (I think that is how you spell it).

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
I guess the inference was that the big supplier had attempted to purchase hundreds of the identical chop cup that Frank has designed. That would qualify him as a "slime ball".

I would think that if the cup is manufactured under some sort of contract (or even a handshake) to Frank's design, that the leather-worker in question would NOT be entitled (certainly morally) to simply go and sell hundreds of that SAME design to another supplier.

Of course, if THAT "slime ball" supplier was to come up with a new design for Frank's leather-worker AND offer him more money to prioritise his work then Frank would have a different problem on his hands, and the leather-worker would be entitled to do whatever work he wished (again, providing he has not already contracted to provide a certain quantity of these cups within a certain time frame to Frank).

[...]

Bob,

For almost three decades I have been designing, prototyping and manufacturing items for other companies – as well as my own products, of course. I have done this work in many fields besides the magic industry and in all that time I have NEVER been handed an idea or a design that was ready to manufacture AS SUBMITTED. In all cases, including blueprinted military projects, some amount of re-designing or "tweaking" was required. This is exactly why companies and individuals seek someone like me out – to perfect their ideas.

It is quite clear from Frank's previous posts – both here and in other forums - that he and the company who makes the leather goods he retails have gone through this very process. Ideas or drawings were submitted, prototypes were built, changes were made, new prototypes were built… and so on. In this process the customer primarily approves or disapproves of the finished product; it is the craftsman who contributes the majority of the design and engineering work.

I'm merely noting that it is EXACTLY this process that Mr. Riser had publicly declared should rightfully make the intellectual property of the finished version belong to the craftsman, NOT the customer:

Jim Riser wrote:
"[...] Perhaps everything was not clear in my post above. On custom/prototype work I will require dimensioned drawings (the client's). I will make a prototype as per their drawings for "x" amount of dollars. I own nothing related to their project.

But, if after making the item as per their drawing and it does not work as the client expected and the client wants me to figure out how to make it work - then any changes to the design are mine and will need to be bought or licensed from me. [...]"

I can't say I agree with this philosophy, and I have never run MY business this way, but that's been Riser's public position.

So I am still wondering how this position justifies the "ripped off" and "slime balls" rhetoric. If the craftsman owns the final design, then shouldn't he have the right to sell to whomever he wants? Whether it's a few dozen items wholesaled to Frank or a few hundred to a big supplier, isn't this choice up to the craftsman or the manufacturer? This seems to be the exact opinion that Mr. Riser has stated on more than one occasion. But that doesn't mesh with what he's saying now, so I'm just wondering about the inconsistency.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Johnny Mystic]

All this legal mumbo jumbo is one of the many reasons why I haven't even bothered tryin' to market any of my gimmicked gizmos or routines of any nature....what a sad state of affairs...

Johnny

[Guest]

You vewy gwouchy, Mr. Wayne.

[Jim Riser]

For those interested in Chop Cup variations...I am currently working on a small version which will be designed to "pick up" (with no moves), as well as, to drop (with or without the usual Chop Cup set down). The projected routine will be a variation of the "Find the Pea". This will become my replacement for the current Riser/Loomis Micro Chop Cup.

As Frank's experiments with leather Chop Cups have shown, there is still more to be done with the Chop Cup idea.
Jim

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Groves:
You vewy gwouchy, Mr. Wayne.

How do you mean, Dave?

[Robert Allen]

For what it's worth, I would expect that anyone who does design work for another party, and who desires to retain some of the intellectual property from that design, would insist on a signed contract between the parties spelling that out, preferably in advance. Such a thing would solve all the misunderstandings that abound, IMHO. Such a contract would spell out the hourly wage for such design (particularly if there was no IP to be retained).

Using chop cups as an example, if you were to take an idea to a non-magician manufacturer and try to get them to built it, while you might get something that came out looking nice, the gimmick might well be too strong, too weak, etc. The expertise to design the gimmick and anticipate problems and then fix them before they present themselves is what you'd be paying for someone's expertise to do. In Jim Risers case he's in the enviable situation of both being able to build and design things, so from his perspective there might seem little point to offering any kind of paid consultancy, or if such consultancy were offered, it would be priced quite highly to offset the lack of IP retention.

My .02 anyhow..

[Frank Starsinic]

Originally posted by Jim Riser:

As Frank's experiments with leather Chop Cups have shown, there is still more to be done with the Chop Cup idea.
Jim

Yes, Jim, you're right.

When David Groves and I were doing some vewy cool productions, I noticed another magician was trying to hold out a shot glass under one of my cups but he was squeezing at the mouth of the cup which distorted its shape.

I pointed out that you can also hold out by squeezing at the highest part of the chop cup (the opposite of the mouth) which does not distort the cup at all and it was actually exactly at the mouth of the liquid load.

Jim's right. There's more to think about here.
Sounds like he's on it! Can't wait to see more
from Mr. Riser.


Frank

[Guest]

I hope Wayne's military projects are better designed than his Coffee Chop...

Brian B

[Guest]

Originally posted by Brian B:
I hope Wayne's military projects are better designed than his Coffee Chop...

Brian B

Brian,

I've received nothing but rave reviews from the many purchasers of my Coffee Chop set; also, the innovative (and patent-pending) magnet system involved is, to my knowledge, the only NEW idea to be applied to the chop cup in several decades.

Would you care to elaborate on your veiled criticism?

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Steve V]

I don't think it was very veiled am a bit surprised by the statement. While I know some have personality conflicts with Thomas (I don't, I've always found him to an alright fella) I've never heard, even from critics, anything other than positive statements about his products, artistic ability, and craftsmanship.
Steve V

[Guest]

Originally posted by Thomas Wayne:
...also, the innovative (and patent-pending) magnet system involved is, to my knowledge, the only NEW idea to be applied to the chop cup in several decades....

In reading the instructions, I seem to recall that "the flick" was written up as new and an invention of Mr. Wayne's. However, in viewing Paul Wilson's "The Restaurant Act" video, which was produced in 2001 but developed well before then, I found a nearly identical move that was described in the following way:

"This isn't mine, it's an old chop cup technique."

Is "the flick" new?

[Frank Starsinic]

Once I heard about the "flicking" thingy I tried it with my Johnson Products chop cup. I'm not really sure how it's supposed to be done but whatever I'm doing with my JP cup works pretty well. The JP chop cup is unlike most others in that the interior comes to a point where most are flat bottom'd. This helps.

In the restaurant act video, I thought RPW used an unnatural shove. I remember I didn't like it but I would have to re-visit the video to be sure.


I'm not 100% sold on flicking but I think it's got it's place. As long as you can do it gently and not draw suspicion when doing it multiple times. For a ceramic cup and a hard surface it's probably the way to go.


When I set cups down, I was taught to set them down with the leading edge (toward the audience) first which allows the ball to fall off and hit the wall of the cup and rattle around instead of setting the cup down flat which sometimes makes the ball hit the table bounce straight back up and make a surprise landing back up on the roof of the cup.. D'oooooooooooooooooh.

When you do that, the set down does not have to be as fierce either, I've discovered.