Three Fly

[Guest]

Originally posted by Mike Cookman:
Gary Kurtz has a nice three fly type of thing in his "Misty Like a Dream." A shell is used, but is not required. Just so you know.

Gary was one of the pioneering guys using a fingertip coins across before the popularity of it took off.

[Brian Marks]

It is three fly with in an entire routine

[Guest]

Garys routine is one of the best...
Go try and find a better three coin sequence, dare ya (it has what 3 Fly needs: extra sequences: before and after the 3 fly effect.)

I think Garys work with the plot is VERY instrumental to it's popularity. The transition phase of his routine (aka 3 Fly w/ shell) is identical (in effect to an audience.)

Here's an interesting question:

Kurtz' trick (it's original title 'Trio' from "Unexplainable Acts") was published in 1990 (and I'd guess, that Gary did'nt develop that sequence in less than a year... unless of course, he is the genius-god I deem him to be. So it probably predates that.)

Kenners "Out of Control" was published in 1992

I know Kenner had Three Fly in print prior to the Hardcover book... Two places:
#1 as a seperate manuscript (3 Fly)
and in issue #2 of the Magic Man Examiner

while I used to have both of thos things, I now have neither... Anyone out there got a copyright date on those things?

As much as I love Kenner, I'd love to see Kurtz get a bit more exposure (even if he's not with us anymore.... RIP in ESP.) If Gary Kurtz is resposible for one of the most intriquing coin effects of the past decade, then he deserves the credit...

if not...

he still gets credit for being one of the best rounded performers to ever hold 3 coins (or anything else for that matter.)

nuff for now,
Doug Conn

[Frank Yuen]

My copy of the ThreeFly manuscript is in storage but issue #2 of Magic Man Examiner has a copyright date of 1991. In the write up it says that ThreeFly has been a "pet routine of Chris' for the last 5 years." I believe I purchased the manuscript about a year before the magazine write up.

Frank Yuen

[mike cookman]

One aspect I really like about that portion of Mr. Kurtz' routine is that he has, at that point, already showed his hands otherwise empty, and continues to do so throught the whole routine. I wish I was that smart.

[Guest]

Originally posted by D.Conn:
Garys routine is one of the best...
Go try and find a better three coin sequence, dare ya (it has what 3 Fly needs: extra sequences: before and after the 3 fly effect.)

I think Garys work with the plot is VERY instrumental to it's popularity. The transition phase of his routine (aka 3 Fly w/ shell) is identical (in effect to an audience.)

Here's an interesting question:

Kurtz' trick (it's original title 'Trio' from "Unexplainable Acts") was published in 1990 (and I'd guess, that Gary did'nt develop that sequence in less than a year... unless of course, he is the genius-god I deem him to be. So it probably predates that.)

Kenners "Out of Control" was published in 1992

I know Kenner had Three Fly in print prior to the Hardcover book... Two places:
#1 as a seperate manuscript (3 Fly)
and in issue #2 of the Magic Man Examiner

while I used to have both of thos things, I now have neither... Anyone out there got a copyright date on those things?

As much as I love Kenner, I'd love to see Kurtz get a bit more exposure (even if he's not with us anymore.... RIP in ESP.) If Gary Kurtz is resposible for one of the most intriquing coin effects of the past decade, then he deserves the credit...

if not...

he still gets credit for being one of the best rounded performers to ever hold 3 coins (or anything else for that matter.)

nuff for now,
Doug Conn

Doug, here is a thread on the Genii forum from last year that is very informative... http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ ... 0&t=000005

Eric DeCamps claims to have been taught the routine from Jonathan Townsend in 1986. Eric claims to have introduced Chris Kenner to Townsend in 1987, who then taught the routine to Kenner.

Kenner first released his ThreeFly in Magic Man Examiner #2 in 1991 wherein he states, "This routine has been a pet effect of Chris' for five years (though it would be four years if Eric DeCamps time table was correct). It has recieved rave reviews from magicians like .....(and he lists magicians including Gary Kurtz)..."

I don't have Gary's book available at the moment, does his routine "Trio" include the fingertip coins across plot or was it just a production/vanish sequence? I know it is included in his 1995 video as part of his "Misty Like a Dream" routine.

Regardless of who published it first, it is credited to Jonathan Townsend. Kenner basicly is credited with really popularizing his version of it. I do believe Kurtz' work, as you say, is also very influential in popularizing it, and others agree.... Bob Kohler thanks in the following order on his "Ultimate 3 Fly" video for "Making the fingertips coins across routine into what it is today"...Jonathan Townsend, Gary Kurtz, and Chris Kenner.

I just popped Kurtz' video back in the VCR and watched his routine again. Damn is he good. What a skill level to aspire to. I wish he still practiced the art of sleight of hand.

Dan

[Brian Marks]

Jonathan Townsend did come up with the effect three fly but it was done in the hands as opposed to the fingertips. He was a New York magician as was Chris Kenner and Eric DeCamps. To my knowledge it was either Eric or Chris who brought the effect to the fingertips. Jonathan's original routine remains unpublished as of now but gets credit in all published materials I have read. All three hung out at the usual NYC hang out at that time.

Gary Kurtz is Canadian and I am sure got this trick after Eric and Chris. It probably took Chris and Gary both several years to publish such routines. Eric was supposed to be working on a booklet on three fly now that comes with the original routine of Jonathan's.

It has been mentioned to me by fairly reliable sources that the effect may have a previous history to Jonathan Townsend. A T Nelson Downs poster shows him with coins in a fingetip coins across position.

[Guest]

Dan, thanks for the info... mucho appreciatto.
(great link/thread) Ditto Brian

note:
Still looking for the original copyright date of the Three Fly manuscript

my bedtime prayers will include:

a hope that someone reveals long lost video footage of Down's performaning the 3Fly effect.)

&

Gary will come out of hiding and claim that he invented the thing while stuck in a blizzard in the winter of 85 ;)

(no offense to any of the performers above, I'm just a Kurtz nut... he was one of the best we ever had.)

[Eric DeCamps]

Gentlemen:

Just to set the record straight:

Dan, I did introduce Jonathan Townsend to Chris Kenner. To quote Bill Murrays character in the movie Stripes, Thats a fact Jack. It happened at the last New York Magic Symposium (honoring Dai Vernon) which was held at the New York Sheraton. If my memory serves me correct that was the summer of 1987. As I have stated in a much earlier post under the topic, What happened to Jonathan Townsend , Chris worked out his own version after that.

Brian, Chris was never from New York City. Chris is from the St. Louis, Missouri area. I first met Chris when I worked a Mendoza Magic Day back around 1985.

Doug, you speak of Gary Kurtz as if he were gone. From what I know he is very busy and extremely successful performing his mentalism for the lay public. As far as his sleight of hand is concerned, I am quite sure he still is one of the best we still have!

Eric DeCamps

[Guest]

As far as his sleight of hand is concerned, I am quite sure he still is one of the best we still have!

I hope you're right :p (Are you sure of this?... tell me yes, make my day.)

Back to Townsend/3 Fly:
Brian mentioned he did it in the hands, not the fingertips... is this correct?

and Back to Kurtz:
Was he seen at any of these 'meetings / gatherings where the trick was being shown?
Are you sure he knew of the 'plot?' Just clearing up the possibility of independant reinvention.

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Originally posted by Brian Marks:
Jonathan Townsend did come up with the effect three fly but it was done in the hands as opposed to the fingertips. He was a New York magician as was Chris Kenner and Eric DeCamps. To my knowledge it was either Eric or Chris who brought the effect to the fingertips. Jonathan's original routine remains unpublished as of now but gets credit in all published materials I have read. All three hung out at the usual NYC hang out at that time.

I thought the distinguising factor between three fly and other coins across routines was that it WAS done at the fingertips. From what I understand from other posts here, Jonathan Townsend was the first to do it at the fingertips (the Downs reference is very questionable -- see the other thread for more details on that). Townsend showed it to Eric and Chris, and Chris was the first to publish a routine.

Eric also mentioned that he was working on a book on the effect, which would include Jonathan's original routine along with three of his own. What's the status of this project, Eric? I'd like to check that out when it's released.

-Jim

[mike cookman]

While we're on the subject, has David Roth done anything Three Fly-wise? By the way, I never meant to suggest that Gary Kurtz created it, I just think his routine is very magical.

[Brian Marks]

I showed David Roth my version. He gave his "approval" of my handling. He then went on to tell me he didn't like the effect (by anyone) because you cant show the spectators the insides of your hands. However he was referring to sleight of hands versions and not the gimmicked versions. We didn't get into the Kohler version as this was a fairly brief conversation.

[Guest]

Dan Wrote

I don't have Gary's book available at the moment, does his routine "Trio" include the fingertip coins across plot or was it just a production/vanish sequence? I know it is included in his 1995 video as part of his "Misty Like a Dream" routine.

The Kurtz sequence is a "Figertip" coins across effect.
Another question: Who was the first to publish a Threefly effect utilizing a shell? Was it Kurtz?
Just a side note I am with Doug (as a fellow Ballvaser)on the whole Kurtz nut thing. I have to believe he was one of the best ever "general" Finger Flicker.
Cheers,
Jay

[Brian Marks]

"Brian, Chris was never from New York City. Chris is from the St. Louis, Missouri area. I first met Chris when I worked a Mendoza Magic Day back around 1985."

I stand corrected.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Brian Marks:
I showed David Roth my version. He gave his "approval" of my handling. He then went on to tell me he didn't like the effect (by anyone) because you cant show the spectators the insides of your hands. However he was referring to sleight of hands versions and not the gimmicked versions. We didn't get into the Kohler version as this was a fairly brief conversation.

I remember Roth talking about the very same subject at a lecture I attended. He mentioned how clean edge grip looks and how he killed people with it before it was published. Then he proceeded to comment how he doesn't like the three fly routines because you can't show the insides of your hands.

I did specifically ask David about the Kohler version, and he said something to the effect that Kohlers version eliminates his gripe about the routine, and that he might get one himself (I don't know if he ever did buy one or not).

[Guest]

"Coin Across the Fingertips"

Kurtz had it in print in 1990 Though, it was hard to find: Buried in the middle of a challenging (but thrilling) routine (Trio from "Unexplainable Acts") Whithin, you'll find a coins across the fingertips (which is performed on his 'Creating Magic' vid if you're curious.)

Note: His coins across the fingertip sequence uses a shell (and is almost 100% identical in effect to the Kenner (etc.) versions.)

Kenner's version first saw print in 1991
(in his "original" 3 Fly manuscript... then later in Magic Man Examinter and again in "Out of Control")

So, Kurtz gets the nod as far as print goes. As mentioned before (by Dan) Kurtz is a pioneer for this kind of 'fingertip' material. He deserves the kudos.

I'm also still waiting to hear more about Townsends routine. Was it fingertip or not?

And... also still curious as to whether Gary developed the effect without influence. (In otherwords, did he see Townsend, DeCamps, etc... are we sure of this?)

I dunno... do you?

Until I hear a strong case for Townsend, I think Kurtz deserves more mention when it comes to '3 Fly' (with much repsect to ALL parties involved: Kenner, DeCamps, etc.)

next,
Doug Conn

[Guest]

Well Doug I just finished reeading through "Trio"
and there are no credits given during the routine except for Geoff Latta's one handed vanish with the curl palm. Maybe Richard can shed some light here? Obviously it is a figertip plot but it is different in many ways from Kenner's method. Firstly the shell, then the process by which he gets ahead each time, It is straight forward and direct. Perhaps he had heard of the effect and developed his own procedure. Richard can you illuminate the path before (behind?) us a bit?
Cheers Jay

[Guest]

Oops! I should have said that there are no credits given during the part that explains the coins across section of the routine. I didn't mean the entire routine. To be a bit more precise Part four on pg.73 thru pg. 76
Sorry It is 2am and I must go to bed hopefully I have covered my bases here. Good night.
Jay

[Guest]

Doug,

I just realized that the answer to your questions regarding the dates of the prior printings of Kenner's 3 Fly are actually right on the copywrite page of OUT OF CONTROL.

In the "As Seen Before" section of the page it lists both MAGIC MAN EXAMINER and THREE FLY, KILLER COINS ACROSS FROM THE MIND OF CHRIS KENNER both being (1991). So you are right Kurtz' routine in print does predate Kenner's printing.

Though Kenner's version seems to have been more widespread throughout the magical community. In the end, routines generall get referenced to the person who ceated the first one (Townsend) and the person who popularized it (Kenner). However - most times that I hear the version referenced incorporating a shell, I hear Kurtz referenced.

Maybe Kenner's version was closer to Townsends by nature of using an extra coin? Kurtz' was more of a departure using a shell? Since then we have had even more departure in method with the Flipper Coin and Kohler versions?

One person who might know the origins of Gary's routine is Bob Kohler. I know Bob references in his U3F tape about a jam session at his house with Tim Conover and Gary Kurtz, when Bob came up with his ending "fly" sequence. I would assume that a jam session that included 3 fly might have had talk about it? With Gary present, he may have talked about where he first came in contact with the plot?

Dan

[Bill Mullins]

Gary's web page is:

http://garykurtz.com/ahtml/home.html

and his email is:

info@garykurtz.com

Why don't you just ask him????

[Guest]

Originally posted by bill mullins:
Gary's web page is:

http://garykurtz.com/ahtml/home.html

and his email is:

info@garykurtz.com

Why don't you just ask him????

Because that would be too straightforward and easy. Where is the fun in that? :)

Go for it Doug, let us know what you find out.

Dan

[Guest]

Why don't you just ask him????

Because I don't wanna bother him. He's out of magic for a reason.... & if it has anything to do with naggy credit issues, I don't wanna rekindle bad feelings.

Plus, I hear if you ask a question he doesn't like, he zaps your noggin with his superpowered brain energy (I hear that's what happened to Busby.)

Anyone out there keep in touch wiht Kurtz?

His site says he's performing around Canada...

Hint to the folks @ Genii: That would make a GREAT story (what Kurtz is doing, what happened, etc.)

[mike cookman]

I'd like to learn what David Roth thinks of Gary Kurtz' version, because by the time he gets to the three fly part of "Trio" he has long since shown his hands empty via edge grip handlings. I'll go ahead and write to Mr. Kurtz about the origins of three fly. I'll bet green money he doesn't remember. Hee hee.

[Guest]

Watch out for his super powered brain energy!

[Bill Mullins]

Gary's Superpowered Brain Energy vs. Tenacious D's Mind Bullets -- Who would win??

[Guest]

I'm sure Roth will agree: Gary's handling of Hanging Coins is one of the best out there.

In my opinion (not to change the subject) His hanging coin sequence is better . Three things: He added some retention of vision to the false placements. Three coins is better than four... and... THE LAST COIN VANISHES (this is a biggie.)

Note: If you've seen Gary do this (or don't have his "Creating Magic Vid") you'll understand my appreciation for his work. If you don't have his stuff, your library is lacking.
Side-Note: This is one case when I'll reccomend his two (A-1) videos over the (Kaufman) book. On the vids, you get to see him work (and it's a beautiful thing.) Without that, you'd think his stuff in the (well written) book is a bunch of pipe dreams. Sidenote-note: The book has some stuff that is not on the vids (vice-versa) if you can afford it, buy it all! And... if you can find it, also buy his: Leading With Your Head (his real secrets are in there.)

over,
Conn

[Guest]

Are you referring to telekinesis?

[Guest]

on an unrelated note,
I hope those of you that read my ramblings will forgive my overabundance of typos, mis-spellings, etc...

I write in haste (I already over-do-it in these forums as it is.)

excuse the interuption... back to Kurtz (or Townsend, etc.)

[mike cookman]

Thanks for the warning about his super powered brain energy, Jay. I'll let you know how it goes. I like Mr. Kurtz's Flurious, too. I've been working on it. Maybe, someday...

[Guest]

Years ago in a magic meeting I spent a lot of time with Gary Kurtz and being the two interested in coin magic I showed him the european thinking I aplied to Kenners Fingertip coins across. He showed me his version: (At this time I didnt have Kurtz s book). And he told me he was upset for not being mentioned for anybody when talking about the effect and method of this effect, because he was the first in publshing, and his version its very clean.It deserved a good mention.
But magic its that way.

[Guest]

It definately deserves more than just a mention. His routine is a thing of beauty. His gesticulated change is so smooth in his hands (it looks so obvious in mine).

His ability with multiple coin sleight of hand is just superb. Better than what many can do with just one coin.

Dan

[Randy DiMarco]

Gary Kurtz's Trio was published as a set of lecture notes a few years before Unexplainable Acts came out. I think it may have been around 1988.

[Richard Kaufman]

No one questions that Jonathan Townsend is the first person (I'll add "in modern times" to satisfy David Roth) in modern times to develop a fingertip coins across in the manner that we know it. I believe Kenner and Kurtz worked out their respective versions independently after either seeing Townsend or Eric DeCamps, or being told about Townsend's routine. Neither one of them get credit for anything other than their particular handlings or improvements (and that would be subjective). Either way, their versions have been surpassed by several others, Paul Wilson's among them.
And to whomever said that Roth would agree that Kurtz' version of the "Hanging Coins" is better than his own, I don't think so ... the Roth version is superior and he knows it. The cleanliness of Roth's handlings have rarely been improved.

[David Ben]

I have known Gary for many, many years - probably longer than anyone on the forum as we first became friends in the early 1980s when he moved to Toronto.

Gary and I used to work at a dinner theatre show called "A Little Night Magic". We were two of the original cast members. I remember Gary performing the 3-Fly type of routine, table to table, back then. This would have been 1984.

Gary used to write up many of his routines in private manuscript form and give them to friends. I will check my files to see if he wrote it up. I believe that it was originally written up in this manner in 1987.

Although the effect appeared in Unexplainable Acts, August 1990, Gary worked with Richard well in advance of that date to prepare the material for the book.

Next time I see Gary, I'll ask him. Gary has kept extensive notebooks of all of his ideas and material for as long as I have known him.

[Eric DeCamps]

Originally posted by Brian Marks:
To my knowledge it was either Eric or Chris who brought the effect to the fingertips.

Brian, Chris handling is his own. I was working on my own at the same and never spoke to Chris about it.The first time I became aware of Chris handling was when he published it in The Magic Man Examiner.

Originally posted by Jim Maloney:
I thought the distinguising factor between three fly and other coins across routines was that it WAS done at the fingertips. From what I understand from other posts here, Jonathan Townsend was the first to do it at the fingertips (the Downs reference is very questionable -- see the other thread for more details on that). Townsend showed it to Eric and Chris, and Chris was the first to publish a routine. Eric also mentioned that he was working on a book on the effect, which would include Jonathan's original routine along with three of his own. What's the status of this project, Eric? I'd like to check that out when it's released.

Jim, you are right. Jonathan was the first, to my knowledge, to do the routine at the finger tips. I also agree that the reference to Downs does not hold water. If it were true, I honestly believe something so visual would have influenced others way before the mid 1980s.

As far as the treatise I spoke about, it has been put in the back burner because I have been more interested working on other projects. However, I will get it done in one medium or another. I do not think that you will be disappointed when I do.

Originally posted by Dan Watkins:
I did specifically ask David about the K version, and he said something to the effect that K version eliminates his gripe about the routine, and that he might get one himself (I don't know if he ever did buy one or not).

Dan, when I last spoke to David regarding this subject just a few months ago, he had not obtained one.

Chris handling in many ways is superior to the original routine. There is what some may consider a flaw with the original that Chris cleaned up.

In all fairness, I would also like to mention that I was working on variants of my own before Chris published his and I did independently come up with my own solution and versions prior to 1990.

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
I believe Kenner and Kurtz worked out their respective versions independently after either seeing Townsend or Eric DeCamps, or being told about Townsend's routine. Neither one of them get credit for anything other than their particular handlings or improvements (and that would be subjective). Either way, their versions have been surpassed by several others, Paul Wilson's among them.

Richard, I never showed Gary the original handling of the Townsend routine. At that time I never showed it to anyone. Jonathan asked me not to, so I respected his wishes.

Originally posted by dben:
Gary and I used to work at a dinner theatre show called "A Little Night Magic". We were two of the original cast members. I remember Gary performing the 3-Fly type of routine, table to table, back then. This would have been 1984.

David, Jonathan first showed me his routine in the Fall of 1986 at the old Rubens restaurant here in NYC. He did it masterfully and blew me away. He then proceeded to teach me his theory and handling in detail. It still has some great moments that none of the newer versions I have read or seen have ever included. Next time you are in town I would be more than happy to show it to you.

Although Jonathan showed it to me in 1986, it was clearly obvious that he had worked on it for quite sometime before showing it to me.

Eric DeCamps

[Richard Kaufman]

David and Eric, thanks for taking the time to try and further clarify a topic that seems to have a life of its own!
And Eric, we all REALLY want you to publish Jonathan's original routine!!!!

[Guest]

There's one question in this thread that I'm curious about:

From Brian Marks:
Jonathan Townsend did come up with the effect three fly but it was done in the hands as opposed to the fingertips.

Just wondering what/when/why/how/etc...

Can ya clear that up Brian (or Eric?)

Thanks,
Doug

PS: Regardless, If Kurtz has notes that date back to 1987, plus an (esteemed) eyewitness that goes back to 1984, then heck, the effect/credit is his (if ya ask me.)

[Kevin Baker]

"Either way, their versions have been surpassed by several others, Paul Wilson's among them."

I'm not sure the Kurtz version has necessarily been surpassed. Whilst newer versions, Paul Wilson's amongst them, have simplified the handling the Kurtz version retains a purity that is hard to surpass - the coins are never openly transferred from hand to hand, there is no weak gag used to cover a transfer etc.

The Kurtz version is also, as far as I'm aware, the first to use a thumb slide for the first coin and to use a shifting focus of attention (both later emphasised in the Wilson version)...

The trade off is a far more difficult routine in terms of both technique and direction of attention.

Whew. I have exhausted even myself with this ramble....

[Brian Marks]

Eric showed me the Jonathan Townson version awile ago. I may be mistaken but I remember quarters being used, displayed at the fingertips and the revelations being in the hand. But this was awile ago and it seems I mistakenly put Cris Kenner at Ruebens. (Ive heard so many stories about Ruebens, they have begun to merge.) Since Eric showed me the routine and told me the story, its probably best he clarify.