the Malini Subltety

[Guest]

:genii:

[NikMikas]

Often miscalled the "Kaps Subtlety", it is used to show a coin in an apparently otherwise empty hand, whilst retaining another coin in classic palm.

I do not know to many resources for it, but it is explained in the description for David Wiliamson's "Cross-Eyed Coins Across" ( Williamson's Wonders, pg. 12).

[Richard Kaufman]

When I was writing the book David Roth's Expert Coin Magic, Roth often used something he learned from Fred Kaps. In it, the palm up hand holds a coin between the thumb and fingers while another coin is concealed in classic palm. Now the hand isn't really palm up, if it's the right hand then the palm faces to the left. It appears as if the inside the of hand is seen otherwise empty.
I named this "The Kaps Subtlety." At some point down the road, Jamy Ian Swiss located the identical item in the Vernon book on Malini. You can't miss the drawing explaining it since it's the only one with an eyeball!
However, by then the damage was done and many still refer to it as The Kaps Subtlety rather than The Malini Subtlety.

[Guest]

:)

Hey Guys. Thanks for the assistance! I'm familiar with the "Kaps Subtlety." Now I am better informed.

And by the way, this was my first time using the Genii Forum. What a GREAT resource!

Thanks again.

Russell :genii:

[Bill Wells]

Richard -

At the risk of getting into something that smacks of pushing celestial bodies around pin heads with this Ramsay, Kaps, Malini subtiety business, I have to say that I am not convinced that the so-called Malini and Kaps subtieties are the same. Both, as well as the Ramsay subtiety all have the same purpose to hide a palmed coin (finger or classic)while apparently either showing or creating the assumption that the hand is empty.

While I can only evaluate the Malini version by what is printed in "Malini and his Magic", I did have the opportunity to see Fred Kaps use this technique a number of times in both public and private performances. Other than print, we do have the few film clips of Ramsay as appear on the Galloway videos.

The Ramsay subltety appears to be the display of the palm with a coin in finger palm creating the impression that the hand is empty. The use of the finger palm rather than the classic palm seems to be the primary difference between Ramsay's technique and those of Kaps and Malini which have the coin classic palmed.

The Malini technique both in illustration and description, as I understand it, seems to create an impression the hand is empty without showing the palm. Indeed, the text says "In other words, the angle of his right hand prevented the specatator from seeing into the palm". The text goes on to state "This created a wonderful effect, as the spectator had the impression of seeing both ands, but he only actually saw the left palm."

Kaps, on the other hand (I couldn't resist). showed as much of the palm side of the hand with the classic palmed coin as possible. The description in "Fred Kaps' Purse" edited by Anthony Bramhams (page 7) of the "Hiding Principle" is pretty much as I remember Fred doing it. However, he did not always have another coin at the fingertips. He also used the "hiding principle" when there was only the classic palmed coin. The ball of Fred's thumb would hide the palmed coin when he angled his hand toward you. You saw palm and you were certain you had seen the entire hand to be empty.

Ergo Richard, I feel you were probably correct to label this the Kaps subltety and that it is, in fact, a different technique than that now being called the Malini subltety. I guess I will have to present my point with Jamy as well the next time I see him.

Bill

[Richard Kaufman]

Bill, do you mean the "ball" of Kaps' thumb or the base of his thumb?

[Bill Wells]

If you have the "Fred Kaps'Purse" booklet, look at Photograph 1 on page 6. Fred had large hands. When he classic palmed a coin there was a "fold" of the fleshly middle "heel" of his thumb that actually sort of hung over the coin, particuarly if a smaller coin like a half dollar. (Of course, silver dollars got lost in his hands as well!) If he extended his hand to you almost as if to shake hands, the coin was hidden beneath the fleshly base (I have always called it the "ball" of the thumb as well - base, heel, ball, the bottom fleshy part) and the fold of skin between thumb and forefinger. You simply could not see a coin and thought you were seeing an empty hand even when you knew the damn thing was there. He sort of pointed his fingers and thumb at you with a slight downward angle. It also works looking over the back of the hand and seeing the little finger base of the palm.

Of course, we are talking about subtieties on top of subtieties here.

I hope the above helps you understand what I meant. To me, it was just a totally different kind of thing than what is explained in the Malini book.

Bill

[Richard Kaufman]

Bill, I do not have the Kaps book so can't refer to the photo, however from your description it sounds like the same thing to me. We'll have to compare palms in February in Vegas!

[Bill Wells]

Richard -

I will be there at high noon with palms, the Kaps' booklet and whatever.

Bill

ps - Be sure to reserve your room, the Orleans releases the block on January 17.

[Pete Biro]

OK, who's is what many of us call the Himber subtelety? Hand palm up, parallel to floor, visible coin on flat palm, hidden coin blocked from view, from front, by curled up fingertips. :confused:

[Bill Wells]

OK Biro ... you can join Richard and me at high noon...bring your Himber palm...fully loaded. Jamy will be at WMS, so we might as well get him there.

[Matthew Field]

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
OK, who's is what many of us call the Himber subtelety? Hand palm up, parallel to floor, visible coin on flat palm, hidden coin blocked from view, from front, by curled up fingertips. :confused:

I know that as the Ramsay Subtlety.

Matt Field

[Jonathan Townsend]

Ramsay's idea was to hold out in fingerpalm while displaying something at his fingertips. Subtle in that his palm could be seen empty should someone glance at his hands. A great subtly which serves AFTER one has learned some attention management and trained oneself to keep focus on the audience.

Fred Kaps had big mits. Malini had much smaller hands. Also, one might suspect Fred Kaps was aware of Malini's idea via the book, Vernon or the underground at the time.

Back in the 1970s there was some discussion about the merits of some concealments and the basic utility of Classic Palm. The palm up application was around back then too, though not sure who deserves any credit for the thing, as it comes from a basic billiards acquitment.

[Pete McCabe]

I read a quote somewhere to the effect that (paraphrasing): if you can hide one coin in your hand while showing another, you can do a great many tricks.

Perhaps we should be calling all these things the Scot subtlety, since the quote was attributed to The Discoverie of Witchcraft.

[Bill Duncan]

Matt,
What is generally known as the Ramsay Subtlety involves showing a coin at the tips of the fingers while concealing another in finger palm. Generally with the fingers pointing upwards... in Ramsay's case.

What Pete is describing has the fingers empty (but curled a bit), and the visible coin on the palm of the hand.

Ken Krenzel, David Roth and David Harkey are among those how have exploited this uncommon concealment.

[Pete McCabe]

Another person to exploit the, for lack of a better term, open-handed Ramsey Subtlety is Gary Ouellet, with The Silverdust Production in Close-Up Illusions.

[Glenn Farrington]

Okay...that's it. Richard, Bill, Pete and whomever else has subtleties in their hands...high noon, Tuesday Feb 21st at the World Magic Seminar...I will have a table waiting for you...Pete bring your camera...I'll take notes...Ramsay...Kaps...Malini...I see dead people.

[Richard Kaufman]

I see dead COINS.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I'd like to believe that everyone in this discussion also knows that T. Nelson Downs was using this idea in his routines way back in 1900.

The idea of using one coin to cover the concealment of many works well using Downs Palm and more recently Edge Grip and Kainoa's Lower Edge Grip.

Perhaps the most notable recent application is this principle is Mickey Silver's Human Slot Machine coin production sequence.

Perhaps we might as well refer to the general idea as Scot's Subtlety. Would this be onward, or backward?

[Pete Biro]

Hey Glenn... is my lecture on or off at wms?

[Pete Biro]

Oh, the sun is shining today here on what's left of the left coast. :cool:

[Richard Kaufman]

We are talking here about any differences between what Malini did (according to Dai Vernon) and what Fred Kaps did. These involve concealing coins in classic palm.
This has nothing to do with T. Nelson Downs and the so-called Downs Palm which he pinched from L'Homme Masque!

[Guest]

Magic is the only area of interest I can think of where so much emphasis is put on who "invented" or discovered each "move" or manuever even as knowing what the "move" is in no indicates if the person having the knowledge is at all competent to use it for any purpose even remotely related to how the "inventor" intended it to be used.

While I think credit should always be be given for ones contributions, I imagine many of the things that get debated, such as the topic of this thread, were not the sole discovery of a single person. The contribution of Kaps, Malini, or whoever in this case to the Art of Magic was their superior talent in using the "move" to entertain and fool others.

Not likely to end these debates, but it seems to me to honor the wrong thing as we pay homage to those who have contributed so richly to the art we all enjoy.

[Guest]

We seem to arguing two completely separate points.

What the Ramsay, Kaps, Malini Subtleties actually are.

And who (if anybody) should be credited with them. (Most of us here probably invented at least one of them independently. I know that I did so.)

Dave

[Brad Jeffers]

Originally posted by Richard Bibb:
Magic is the only area of interest I can think of where so much emphasis is put on who "invented" or discovered each "move" or manuever even as knowing what the "move" is no indicates if the person having the knowledge is at all competent to use it for any purpose even remotely related to how the "inventor" intended it to be used.

Chess would be another.

[Brad Jeffers]

When palming a coin, always hold the hand in such a way as to prevent the coin from being seen.

I will dub this the "Universal Subtlety". :rolleyes:

[Jonathan Townsend]

Malini-Kaps is a bit vulnerable from the palm side. Ramsay is a bit less vulnerable except from behind. The EG and Downs palm versions are vulnerable from vertical angles.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Brad Jeffers:
Chess would be another.

Most chess openings seem to be named after countries - Sicily, France, England, Scotland, Poland, Holland, Denmark, to cite a few. Relatively few seem to be named after people.

And I don't think that there are any conjuring sleights with names as bizarre as The Orang-Utan Opening or The Fried Liver. Though I'd genuinely like to be mistaken about that.

Dave

[Disparity1]

Originally posted by Dave Le Fevre:
Most chess openings seem to be named after countries - Sicily, France, England, Scotland, Poland, Holland, Denmark, to cite a few. Relatively few seem to be named after people.

Dave

I'm not totally sure about that, but I\'m too lazy to count .

[DChung]

Originally posted by Dave Le Fevre:

Originally posted by Brad Jeffers:
[b]Chess would be another.

Most chess openings seem to be named after countries - Sicily, France, England, Scotland, Poland, Holland, Denmark, to cite a few. Relatively few seem to be named after people.

And I don't think that there are any conjuring sleights with names as bizarre as The Orang-Utan Opening or The Fried Liver. Though I'd genuinely like to be mistaken about that.

Dave [/b]

For the record, the Orangutan is but a nickname for the Sokolsky opening. Though there are a lot of openings named after countries, those openings are mostly (but not all) very old, and there is some reasoning behind it.

However, once you start talking about variations of openings, then you have an explosion of names. And remember, variations in chess can start as early as move 2, and sometimes two variations differ only by the position of one pawn.

[Pete Biro]

Let's just call 'em all... "The Hide the Coin as best your particlular sized and shaped hand can, based on immediate need."

[Bill Duncan]

Originally posted by Dave Le Fevre:
And I don't think that there are any conjuring sleights with names as bizarre as The Orang-Utan Opening or The Fried Liver. Though I'd genuinely like to be mistaken about that.

Dave,
You are clearly not familer with the work of Simon Lovel or Jay Sankey.

The Wobbly Wombat or The Hobbit Move?

[Bill Duncan]

OK, but now do we call it the the Biro Gambit or the Pete Subtlety?

[Tabman]

Very good, Bill!! The "Biro Gambit" has a nice ring to it!!

-=tabman

[George Olson]

Oh my gosh...The development of the move was a snap when he got the picture of the dark-room full of aspiring Kodak Bears!

Egad, I've become a Biromaniac...... :help:

I've got to f Stop now!!!!!!

GO

[Edwin Corrie]

The question seems to have been resolved now, but I just came across this in the trick Copper to Silver Times Two in "The Cardwright" (Jennings/Maxwell):

"The Malini Subtlety has been known in the past as the Kaps Subtlety. The concealment became associated with Fred Kaps because he popularized it. Recently it was brought to our attention that the credit for the subtlety should go to Malini. (...) You can also find a description of the Malini Subtlety in The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings, see Standing Three Eagles, page 132)."

The photos show two coins classic palmed and a third coin being displayed on the fingers, the palmed coins being hidden by the thumb and its base.

[Bill Wells]

quote - "The question seems to have been resolved now, but I just came across this in the trick Copper to Silver Times Two in "The Cardwright" (Jennings/Maxwell):"

Nothing is resolved!! It will only be resolved with the showdown at high noon at the Genii booth in Las Vegas at the World Magic Seminar.

:D

[Richard Kaufman]

My palms are ready.