Magic Castle Larsen Legacy

[erdnasephile]

Thanks for the information--it does help put things in perspective.

A couple of questions please: Does Mr. Larsen own the building as well as the fixtures? Are there any written guidelines on who gets final aproval on rennovations or has this always been a "handshake" agreement with Milt?

[Richard Kaufman]

The building and land are owned by the Glover family.

The legal question of who owns "fixtures" and names has never been decided in a definitive way. In other words, one can claim to own things (either side can make this claim), but it has never been adjudicated, and thus no definitive statement can be made.

[Pete Biro]

Milt just posted this reply to the Anonymous post.

To all: I don't consider the statement as anonymous. I agree with it. My comments were not meant to criticize anyone. If I offended I apologize. We, the Larsens, appreciate the letters, calls, etc. assuring us that we have the respect all those concerned. With that I hope we can put this thread to rest. Milt

[mrgoat]

Sounds like someone got spanked. Interesting.

[BruceWright]

They closed the thread about this on the internal Castle forums.

So I finally joined Genii Forums. So that I can discuss the club I belong to. Sigh.

Politics sucks.

I imagine the whole thread on the Castle forums will disappear shortly.

Here's what I wrote about the rampant censorship and heavy-handed moderation of the Castle's forums. You know, in case that thread disappears magically.

Quoting myself:

Wow, wow, wow.

As someone who's been chatting on online forums for 30 years or so, I'm appalled when I see forums run so poorly. It's a rare site these days to see something this bad.


It's like the folks running things here have never seen what causes forums to collapse:

It's this behavior by the moderators.

I've seen it time and time again: posts of others edited without explanation, without a private message from the mod explaining the policy, without a policy followup by the mod in the thread.

See how people here are making a bigger stink about the censorship than they are about the actual issue of variety and music at the Castle?




Horrible, bad, self-destructive behavior on the part of the moderators of this forum.

If anyone wants to see how self-destructive a forum can get, keep an eye on these ones. I've seen the pattern dozens of times. Watch the next phases, they're fun!



Got to love the "anonymous" post above, by the club Herself. WHOOOO... That's priceless.


Hey, "Magic Castle Club" posting above. My advice? Get someone who truly understands community
forum moderation, and gets the web 2.0 interactivity of the 21st century.

This forum needs professional moderation. They need to stop running it like a home-owned bulletin-board system from the 1980's.
The fact that one can get a full accounting of the details of this Kerfluffle in the unprotected section of the Genii forums is awesome, and horrible for the club.

Great job "Academy of Anonymous Moderators" above. You now have the club airing its dirty laundry in public!


Which is why healthy moderated forums are preferable. Society isn't closed. Conversation isn't stifled just because you can censor a website

What instead happens is that the information gets out, and causes more people to hear about it.

Look up the Streisand Effect on wikipedia sometime.

[Richard Kaufman]

The internet shines a very bright and uncontrollable light.

[Terrence]

Milt just posted this reply to the Anonymous post.

To all: I don't consider the statement as anonymous. I agree with it. My comments were not meant to criticize anyone. If I offended I apologize. We, the Larsens, appreciate the letters, calls, etc. assuring us that we have the respect all those concerned. With that I hope we can put this thread to rest. Milt

Hmmm... Maybe those dastardly moderators closed the thread at Milt's behest? ? ?

[erdnasephile]

With respect to all, if Milt is willing to put this issue to rest (as per his gracious statement), IMHO perhaps we might consider doing the same.

[Richard Kaufman]

Once the internet genie is out of the bottle, it doesn't go back in. As Bruce wrote, go look at The Streisand Effect on Wikipedia.

[Terrence]

Your absolutely right Richard.

Of course, if one doesn't correctly identify the party or parties that are actually doing the censoring, and blithely assume that it is a group of "Moderators" on the Castle Forum who are doing the censoring, then you end up like Bruce, committing the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy, which can also be found on the Internet, and just throw out a wild-ass guess as a phish.

[BruceWright]

Terrance, I'm speaking of the censorship of the Magic Castle forums, which is rampant and mysterious. That is clear from my post.I did not blame forum moderators for censoring the menu. I have no idea who did that.

Though I do think the attitude is the same... somehow by eliminating messages getting out, political discontent will somehow be avoided, or nipped in the bud. The opposite is the truth.

[Terrence]

Bruce --- you have the correct idea. Believe me, my eyes are starting to fall out rolling watching this happen.

I have left you my phone number in a pm on one of the two Forums, now we're talking. Get back to me guy!

[BruceWright]

I just wanted to follow up on this by clarifying once more, It's the actions that I'm objecting to, and I'm not trying to blame anyone.

I'm just reiterating my opinion that attempting to quash discussion turns out to backfire 10 times out of nine.

[Terry]

Maybe Steve Brooks and his "moderators" are running the Castle forum?

They are experts at censoring material.

[CarloPanno]

Maybe Steve Brooks and his "moderators" are running the Castle forum?

They are experts at censoring material.

There was a thread a while back about how some adult-entertainment producer used to bring his performers to the Castle and that just disappeared one day...

--c

[Tabman]

...playing the piano and singing as good as she looked and doing a very wonderful eclectic Bobby Short, Page Cavanaugh, Michael Feinstein kind of repertoire. And I found her unusual and magical....

Ahhh Bobby Short!! Right on.

[Alan Bursky]

What I would like to know is, the post that was put on the Magic Castle forum signed by the "AMA", is this from the entire membership of the AMA? Is it from the B.O.D? Or even the B.O.T?
By what authority does someone have to put up a post using the name Academy of Magical Arts Inc.??????

[000]

Anyone know how much montly rental the Glovers receive?

[Richard Kaufman]

Bursky, I'm sure you can figure out who put the message on the Castle board. It's probably the people who are in charge.

[Terrence]

It's probably Keyser Soze...

[Richard Kaufman]

Please avoid meaningless posts.

[Liderc]

I can't help but Agree with Milt.

The Castle should be about Magic, I've noticed it's been getting more and more cabaret acts, and a lot of non focused magic. also I've noticed everything is becoming more about power and money.

[houdini's ghost]

In the Castle's entire history, there have never been as many magicians performing per week, each week. For the AMA member there are great--and I mean great--lectures and Castle perks. Every bit of the Castle is devoted to Magic, with one exception and that is the night club area with a dance floor that has been used for all kinds of money raising evenings: cabaret, one person shows (anybody complaining about Tony Curtis or Carol Channing?). The fact that the space is very much like the old night clubs makes me want to see the kind of magic acts like John Booth, Cardini, Russell Swan, I mean, there are guys today who work rooms like that and if one of them would open for each Cabaret act--and be great and make those crooners work to get the crowd back, that would be cool.
But, the Castle has a lot of spirit just now and the two plays the members put on and some members only recreation such as using an unused room on Monday nights to watch football--AND talk Magic--has added to the spirit.
The people who set up the special events never stop running. They all love Magic, too. Every one of them.
Food's been good!

[Bob Cunningham]

You make a lot of good points, both in this post and in your previous post.

I just wish we could have had this kind of frank discussion on the Castle Forums.

I know the Castle Forums can be silly sometimes (see the discussion of serving tea that has been going at least since November), but it would be beneficial for those of us who have not already made up our minds on these issues to hear both sides on OUR forum.

That you, Milt, Allan or any other member else is censored because a topic is considered by some unnamed individual to be too controversial is unhealthy and unfortunate!

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

/Bob

[Liderc]

I Concur on the fact that there is Magic all week long. but that's how it's always been, the scheduled performers.

all I'm saying as of late it seems like more focus and attention is being put on non magic shows and ways to raise more money, instead of focusing on the Magic and Members. as they say " It's Our Club"


Instead of worrying about what Cabaret show, or play to put on, or what comedy act to put on they should be worrying about the lines, and timing of shows so guest don't wait around for an hour because they can't get in a show. or ways to encourage the members to get their own act to perform at the club. things like that for the members and magic


bottom line is, Milt should have every right to say what he feels about his Club.

It's about power and money, And The Powers That Be

[BruceWright]

I actually agree with Houdini's Ghost above... I think the music adds to the Nightclub appeal of the Castle. I've never heard ANYONE complain after a night at the Castle that they didn't get to see enough magic because of all the music going on!

Crowds? Yes. Music? No.

[Liderc]

I'm not saying the music is bad. I'm saying putting all your attention into bringing in more money with non related magic shows, which is whats going on now.

like i said it seems like it's becoming more and more how to make money and less about magic.

i know a couple of others who feel the exact same way, and have voiced their opinion, only to be shut down.


we as members should have a voice if it's "Our Club"

[Alan Bursky]

When you go to a jazz club they have music all night long every night of the week. When you go to a comedy club they have comedy all night long every night of the week. The place is called The Magic Castle. It is the Academy of Magical Arts. Not Julliard!

[Liderc]

The sad part is, we have to discuss this on outside forums..

[Liderc]

When you go to a jazz club they have music all night long every night of the week. When you go to a comedy club they have comedy all night long every night of the week. The place is called The Magic Castle. It is the Academy of Magical Arts. Not Julliard!

Three Cheers!!!!!

[Lisa Cousins]

Of course the great irony here is that if the menus had simply been distributed as usual and without remark, I doubt that the total readership of Milt's column would have hit the triple-digits. Attempting to censor it caused it to absolutely explode throughout the community, with emails winging around containing sensitive information perhaps better off not revealed, landing in your mailbox from three or five different sources. It was THE topic of conversation at the Castle last Friday evening.

It brings to mind the story about Emerson's planned lecture on abolition in the 1850's, when the Elders refused to ring the town bell to announce it(a primitive form of "tweet," as far as I can tell), and Henry Thoreau walked over and pulled the rope himself.

Good old Thoreau.

The magicians of the Magic Castle do indeed represent a little world of our own. But this little world occurs in the context of a larger, astonishingly well-connected global community - and that is what the people in the office, not being participants, have failed to understand.

[Jonathan Townsend]

? are patrons coming to an advertised magic show and having their minds blown by Bach and Mozart?

[Brad Henderson]

When you go to a jazz club they have music all night long every night of the week. When you go to a comedy club they have comedy all night long every night of the week. The place is called The Magic Castle. It is the Academy of Magical Arts. Not Julliard!

Except for when they don't. Del Ray performed at jazz clubs. Heck, even I have performed at several of the music clubs here in austin. I've seen singers do shows at comedy theaters. And I've seen jugglers and ventriloquists there too.

Here's the answer: if you don't like the musical programs, don't buy a ticket. If no one comes, then the "money grubbing" people will stop having them. Seems logical. (If, indeed, it is only about the money.)

I am a member of the castle and I think magic should always be the focus of my club. However, I regret I did not get to see Carroll Channing or Natalie Toro.

If these events actively interfere with the operation of the club or with the acts, then I would agree there is a problem. But if they get people in the door who then come see my show when I'm working there, then I'm happy to have them.

Its nice to work for real people who have come out to have a good time. It's nice to see people spend money and possibly leave with a greater appreciation for magic than when they came.

But I'm not there daily to assess the situation.

Are people suggesting the club attempt to curtail the attendance of non-members? Is that wise?

Have there been any problems with the bonus shows interfering with the magical performances?

How do things play out in practice?

[BruceWright]

Hey, I've even heard a magician tell a joke! Haul that guy out with the hook!

It's still one of, if not the best place to see magic in the world. Certainly the best in Hollywood.

I get what you're saying though, Alan.

[houdini's ghost]

Even when there is a cabaret night--Richard Sherman's night, for example, there are still more magicians working at the Castle, playing more shows, than ever before.
Magic still comes first at the Castle. How can anyone deny that when there is more Magic being performed by more magicians, that Magic comes first at the Magic Castle.

"I'm not saying the music is bad. I'm saying putting all your attention into bringing in more money with non related magic shows, which is whats going on now.
"like i said it seems like it's becoming more and more how to make money and less about magic."

The preceding statement is completely misproven by the facts. That is not what the Castle is doing. The Castle is trying to make money as many ways as it can.
Go to the Castle any night--you'll see. Magic comes first, last and most always at the Castle.
And some of the things you're saying aren't Magic, are Magic.
How about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLoYFvbR0XY
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBb9hTyLjfM

[Alan Bursky]

Patrick,
I will answer you in detail later. As for the plays you are cheering for.... you quit the Fantastiks last year because you said John & Teri didn't know what they were doing. Actually you were ripping them a new one for a while.

[Pete Biro]

GREAT CLIPS MR. GHOST... HAHAH

[Pete Biro]

I know of one event that may have hurt the attendance of a special magic performance When Paul Daniels came to do a one man show last month, "they" scheduled a TONY AWARDS event at the same time. They also FAILED to properly promote Daniels' show,leaving all the posters in an upstairs office, never posting them.

HOWEVER if these events, like Carol Channing and Tony Curtis work and don't harm the magic, fine.

[Seuss]

Of course the great irony here is that if the menus had simply been distributed as usual and without remark, I doubt that the total readership of Milt's column would have hit the triple-digits. Attempting to censor it caused it to absolutely explode throughout the community, with emails winging around containing sensitive information perhaps better off not revealed, landing in your mailbox from three or five different sources. It was THE topic of conversation at the Castle last Friday evening.

A perfect example of the aforementioned streisand effect

[houdini's ghost]

Don't you dare misquote me, Bursky. I did quit the Fantasticks during the rehearsal period. I also saw the show on its opening night and thoroughly enjoyed it and I recommended that you see it which you did not. You know, every time the name of John Eddings ever comes up, I talk about how wonderful he was to work with as an actor. He listens. Listens. Gives back. Forget it, you wouldn't understand.
He put some Magic in the show and, as a matter of fact, fooled everybody with his trunk chicanery. And the production went back to the original, traditional, orchestration for one piano and one harp and that harp was Tina Lenert and the music was magical.
You want to misquote me to knock an excellent show that you didn't bother to see.
How about I quote you:
"Jazz Clubs play jazz."
Wake up, granpa, 54th st. closed down forty years ago for lack of business.