Chris Bliss Diss

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 15th, 2006, 12:53 pm

Jason Garfield complained in an article on his site:

> he did the very FIRST thing you learn when
> learning how to juggle and he got applause you'd
> expect to hear for 5 club backcrosses.


If I were Chris Bliss, I'd take that as a compliment.

JMT

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 15th, 2006, 1:18 pm

I didn't know what Mr. Garfield's site was so I just typed in his name followed with a .com. Sure enough, it was his. The funniest thing on the site was his "Stolen Material Alert" where he warns people of specific juggling routines that have been stolen without the creator's permission.

Mr. Goat, you're right - in that context, the Garfield clip IS funny! What a hoot!

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 15th, 2006, 2:43 pm

OK, I said I was done with this topic, but his bit about stolen material is just too damn funny. I consider most of those things "standard" for jugglers. Maybe because I've seen a lot more jugglers than normal people ever have, (or should.) Has anyone ever made a list like this for magicians?

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 15th, 2006, 4:10 pm

Originally posted by pepka:
Has anyone ever made a list like this for magicians?
Whos got that kind of time???

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 15th, 2006, 4:23 pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 15th, 2006, 8:29 pm

Chris came out with an idea that was fun and ran with it. Jason says, "I'm a better juggler, so I will make fun of him."

Chris is crying all the way to the bank, I'm sure.

Meanwhile, I'm sure Anthony Gatto is watching his back!

NOT!

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Brad Henderson » March 15th, 2006, 9:38 pm

A friend of mine and I were talking about magic on the radio. I commented that anothe friend used to present magic and ventriloquism on the Refro Valley Barn Dance radio show. She thought the notion of a vent act on the radio odd, until I reminded her of Edgar Bergan.

And that brings me back to this thread.

Bergan could do vent on the radio and it played. Why? Because the art of ventriloquism is about much more than the mere technique of talking without one's lips moving. In Mr. Bergen's case was the creation of the illusion of life, characters that have become iconic.

When he transitioned to film, he saw his lips move - but that did npt cause his popularity to suffer. His art was more than his technique.

Likewise in magic, our techniques allow us to be deceptive, but merely deceiving someone is perhaps the lowest form of magic. I can lie to you and you are deceived. Magic can be so much more.

And so with juggling. Technique is the means to the end. Sure, we need technique to get there, and no one would ever advocate using BAD technique. But it is a step, not the trip.

Bliss took his audience on a journey.
Garfield is trying to sip a glass of water without foolishness dribbling down his chin.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 16th, 2006, 1:08 am

I was very amused at Jason's web site. He is totally wrong about the origins of one of the "stolen" bits, specifically the one that he credits to the Raspyni brothers.

I worked with these guys for a couple of years on the Renaissance Festival circuit. They pinched that bit (as well as a lot of the rest of their act) from a group called "Fly By Night." If anyone wants verification of this, they can contact Victoria Barclay at Best Entertainers.

Vic had told me about the Raspynis, but I didn't believe her...until the day I saw the other group juggling at Dickens on the Strand. I went back to the Raspynis and said "There's a group called Fly by Night that is doing your material."

Very embarrassed, they said, "There's nothing we can do about it." They were right. It wasn't their material in the first place.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 25th, 2006, 4:47 pm

I just found this thread of disagreements, and, as one who was quite taken with the Chris Bliss clip, I had to take a look at Jason's.

MrGoat is right in some respects. The juggling is more difficult, technically better, and the body language is more graceful.

It is also an inferior performance. Most of what he did to show more skill actually made the performance weaker.

Much of the synchonisation to the music was actually lost in the added confusion of following five balls. The smoothness of motion, graceful as it may have been, lost the emotional content and the Beatles Rock feeling.

Biss had exactly the right touch to the right routine to get a fantastic audience reaction. He deserved it.

And if a magician gets a standing ovation because he develops a brilliantly audience-moving routine involving nothing more than beginner moves with a Svengali deck, then he (or she) deserves it, too, however much the more accomplished sleightmasters might howl.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 25th, 2006, 6:14 pm

Originally posted by Steve Glaser:

And if a magician gets a standing ovation because he develops a brilliantly audience-moving routine involving nothing more than beginner moves with a Svengali deck, then he (or she) deserves it, too, however much the more accomplished sleightmasters might howl.
This should be engraved in brass and made required reading for everyone in magic who has hopes of working in front of a paying audience.

Magic is about creating the illusion of magic, not about clever methods and technique, so beloved by amateurs.

One of the most successful vaudeville performers did what was believed to be a fantastically advanced sleight of hand routine with a shuffled deck of cards. It baffled the leading experts of the day (including Vernon). The truth was not revealed until years after the performer's death.

All he'd done was add a stack of cards to the top of the shuffled deck at a moment that was covered with strong misdirection. That was the only sleight. Nothing else. The routine carried him through vaudeville for years and made him a lot of money.

It fooled everyone at the time because they were looking for complicated when the intelligent performer opted for simple and direct.

Advanced sleight of hand does not automatically equate to "great" magic or a "great magician" in the eyes of the lay public. The only people who can appreciate advanced sleight of hand are other magicians because all the lay person sees is the Effect.

If Effect is accomplished by some convoluted, knuckle-busting sleight of hand that took 10 years to perfect or an unseen gimmick or a trick deck of cards, the audience doesn't know the difference....or care. They just want to be entertained. The performer who delivers the illusion of magic combined with solid entertainment is the better magician.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » March 25th, 2006, 9:44 pm

Having been a fan of juggling and a juggler (retired from), all my life. And one that has hired hundreds of performers, I would hire Bliss over Jason.

His eccentric style and attitude are light years ahead as an performer/entertianer.

Technical prowess if fine but the ability to connect with an audience and have a style is rare.

And technically, I might go for Viktor Kee (Cirque due Soliel) over Jason.

When you saw Bela Kremo, Topper Martyn andn other "eccentric" 3 ball jugglers you saw ART in the highest form.

Bliss is in this league.
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 27th, 2006, 4:41 am

Chris is an awesome juggler and has a lot of charisma when you see him live.

When I was with David Copperfield and we did our very first tour 23 years ago, Chris opened for us, so I had the opportunity to see him live many times. Back then he was also controlling his own lighting system with foot petals, so imagine all the juggling timed out to music, but also hitting foot petals to change the mood during the songs.

I'm not saying the other guy isn't technically good - but there is a lesson in this - technique isn't everything. Bliss got a standing ovation (as he did 23 years ago) with only 3 balls. That audience wasn't thinking that would have been really good with 5 balls!

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 27th, 2006, 9:49 am

Could Pete or someone else please define the term "eccentric 3 ball juggler." I've been called eccentric and I juggle as well as do magic. I wonder if I qualify?

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » March 27th, 2006, 9:52 am

Mark Evanier\'s take on the "controversy".

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » March 27th, 2006, 10:05 am

Eccentric is the "erratic" throws and catches vs. a smooth style... Bliss is a perfect example while the other tech guy is not eccentric but smoother, even in his attempted copy of Bliss. Topper Martyn was eccentric.
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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Larry Horowitz » March 27th, 2006, 8:05 pm

Eric Clapton once said that his goal in the Blues was to play just one note at the right moment to bring out all the emotion in the song.

I'm pretty sure Eric Clapton could play all of the notes if he chose.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 8th, 2006, 2:33 pm

Wow... here's another clip of Bliss from at least 10 or more years ago. While basically the same (on this clip he is operating lighting changes via foot swiches) you can see how he has GROWN as an ARTIST over time. Enjoy it...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 42&pl=true
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 8th, 2006, 10:59 pm

Next week I believe Chris Bliss is suppose to be a guest on the Penn radio show.
Steve V

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 9th, 2006, 12:15 pm

Just read this thread, explored some of the links, and saw as well some great juggling. After all that, it all seems so clear:

One man is at ease with the number of balls he has.

The other man is not.



Speaking of balls....(or the lack thereof)

mrgoat wrote:
I repeat. I was just posting a clip I thought was funny. No need to take it all so seriously.
Jim Maloney replied:
In all fairness, though, your initial post didn't indicate at all that you were presenting it as humor. ... I really don't see how it could be interpreted otherwise when your first two sentences are putting Chris down, your third states that you like Jason better and then you go on to present evidence why you think Jason is better...
mrgoat replied:
... I don't care what anyone thinks, but I do care if people get heated about something of utterly no importance.
Hope that clarifies it.
Jim Maloney replied:
And yet you feel the need to repeatedly state "no need to take it all so seriously," and how you believe that everyone is missing the point -- an indication that you do actually care about the direction of the thread.
For what its worth to you, Jim, I think you were right on the money. mrgoat has a dog in this fight, that was clear from his very first post, and became ever more irrefutable with each of his successive posts.

mrgoat has also written:
Garfield, Penn and others took issue with the lameness of [Bliss and his video, etc.]
So, Damian, I gather that you have lectured Garfield, Penn and others that its only juggling and to lighten up, right? Right.

Also, now that you have clarified the real reason why you made your initial post, can you explain whats so funny about the Garfield video? Was it his exhibition of great technical skill? Lighting? Venue? Camera angles? Soundtrack? Garfields attack on Bliss on his website? Garfields bald head?

Finally, mrgoat wrote:
This isn't alt.tragic or the caf.
In that case, take the hypocritical [censored] youve been spewing on this thread to one of those places and stop insulting the intelligence of GF readers.

Hope that clarifies it. And as you say, Damian, this is only an internet forum, so no need to take any of the foregoing seriously ... man.

Clay

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 7:48 am

An article from the Washington Post about Chris Bliss here.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 9:02 am

Originally posted by Magicam:

Snip - the ramblings of someone with too much time on his hands

Clay [/QB]
Wow. You do get a bee in your little bonnet, don't you?

I'm afraid this thread (and me) has been alarmingly misinterpreted by you. I don't care about your opinion on me, but no need to be nasty.

Don't sweat it. I am really glad you enjoy Bliss. God give you good of it.

Some people 'get' Garfield, some don't. You don't. That's fine. I would defend your right to your differing opinion to the death.

No need to get aggressive and atagonistic though.

I think this thread has thrown up some of the most interesting thinking on what makes something enjoyed by laypeople that I have seen.

As Dom said, what would make a clip of someone doing a Sven routine so viral? Something for us all to think about.

I really hope Bliss was on Penn's show as I know he is very good mates with Garfield. Indeed the ENTIRE THING of Garfield doing the 5 ball version was Penn's idea...

I also know the juggling community is laughing at the video, and Bliss. He is, irrefutably, not very good as a juggler. Stiff, ungainly yet ultimately, lucky.

But, why did it get so popular so quickly?

If we can work that out, and apply it to our own branch of the art we might be onto something.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 11th, 2006, 10:15 am

Stiff and ungainly is what makes Bliss' act so appealing. That's "STYLE" Goatman, "STYLE." So few jugglers have it. Many can toss more, longer, but so what.
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 11:22 am

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Stiff and ungainly is what makes Bliss' act so appealing. That's "STYLE" Goatman, "STYLE." So few jugglers have it. Many can toss more, longer, but so what.
It's not about the number of balls, nor the duration Mr Biro. It's about the style. I think Bliss has little. People like Anthony Gatto, Vova and Olga Galchenko, Bill Berry, everyone in the Gandini project or historically Rastelli etc have/had style. Grace. Poise. Choreography. Dance training. etc etc.

Jason has put this on his site that explains it all rather eloquently:

"If you think chris bliss is a great juggler, a graceful juggler, a great choreographer, or a great artist based upon his 3 ball juggling routine, read this. Otherwise, you need not bother.

It's fine if people like watching chris bliss's routine They should just understand that they are not seeing great juggling. They are seeing a performance that they enjoy for other reasons. Nobody should come away from his video thinking that they have seen a great juggler. His routine isn't about demonstrating how good of a juggler he is, yet people think that he is because they don't know any better.

If you understand that his juggling skill is very basic, and that you like his performance because of any other reason, then we agree. Although his choreography is also not the best of its kind and with three balls it's very easy to choreograph a routine with tricks as easy as the ones he's doing in his video. And he lacks grace, and it goes on too long in my opinion.

But if you like it for any other reason, maybe you liked the song, then it's perfectly fine for anyone to get enjoyment out of it as long as they understand why they like it and know that his juggling skill is very very basic and the routine is not technically challenging. If you think he's a good juggler, you are wrong. I taped a 5 ball version because...well because Penn asked me to. It is a parody and nothing more. A lot of jugglers have been getting emails from their friends telling them to watch the chris bliss video, thinking that we'll like it. It is upsetting to a lot of us that our friends would think that we would like chris bliss's routine. We know better. We see it for what it is and are not fooled by the music and the sloppy choreography. So now we direct our friends to this video to set them straight in case any more of them tell us how great he is."

But it still leaves us not sure about exactly *what* it was about the video that made people pass it on...

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 11th, 2006, 11:41 am

Some people are ENJOYABLE to watch, and I really enjoyed watching Bliss. He connects with the audience. You mentined Gatto... technically I thought he was amazing when I saw him, but I was NOT entertianed.

Bela Kremo... another that I loved to watch. ENTERTAINING... FUN TO WATCH.
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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » April 11th, 2006, 11:42 am

Originally posted by mrgoat:
People like Anthony Gatto, Vova and Olga Galchenko, Bill Berry, everyone in the Gandini project or historically Rastelli etc have/had style. Grace. Poise. Choreography. Dance training. etc etc.
To me, this seems to be akin to saying that Lennart Green is a bad magician because of his sloppy card handling.

Perhaps we might communicate better if we had some sort of definition as to what qualifys a person as a "good juggler"?

-Jim

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 11th, 2006, 1:26 pm

It's turned into a He Said She Said. Nobody wins. However, IMHO, all that really matters is do you enjoy watching the act?
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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Bill Wells » April 11th, 2006, 1:41 pm

Check today's Washington Post for an article on Chris Bliss and a surprising interest he has ...

www.washingtonpost.com

Look under style for his photo and the article.
Bill Wells

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Pete Biro » April 11th, 2006, 2:17 pm

AMAZING... hope you read it Mr. Goat! I checked with the Post to republsh it here, but they want $400.00 -- wowowowoweeeeeeeeeK
Stay tooned.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 2:34 pm

This whole thread fascinates me.
There seem to be two main issues;
1) this juggling is not techically difficult
2) people who aren't jugglers really enjoy it

How do we reconcile thise two things?

er..maybe that non-jugglers want to be entertained, rather than watch something that someone else has to tell them is technically superior?

I'm just guessing...

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 2:38 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
AMAZING... hope you read it Mr. Goat! I checked with the Post to republsh it here, but they want $400.00 -- wowowowoweeeeeeeeeK
Linking to it directly, or citing it, is free:

A Stand-Up Guy Happily Juggles His Passions , By David Segal, Washington Post, April 11, 2006

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 3:17 pm

Originally posted by Jim Maloney:
Originally posted by mrgoat:
[b]People like Anthony Gatto, Vova and Olga Galchenko, Bill Berry, everyone in the Gandini project or historically Rastelli etc have/had style. Grace. Poise. Choreography. Dance training. etc etc.
To me, this seems to be akin to saying that Lennart Green is a bad magician because of his sloppy card handling.

Perhaps we might communicate better if we had some sort of definition as to what qualifys a person as a "good juggler"?

-Jim [/b]
Not at all. I don't think anyone can really say Green handles card sloppily. Not after the reveal at the end, when he demonstrates complete mastery of the cards.

It's more akin - as I mentioned earlier - to someone doing a sven deck routine and suddenly lots of lay people sending to to magician friends saying 'why don't you do something more like this'.

Bliss is stiff. He can't move well. His choreography is dreadful. But, somehow he has captured a moment, an internet meme, and been emailed round the world.

Why?

And I will have a go at your request for a definition:

A good juggler is someone that makes the very difficult look effortless and graceful.

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 3:21 pm

Originally posted by DomT:
This whole thread fascinates me.
There seem to be two main issues;
1) this juggling is not techically difficult
2) people who aren't jugglers really enjoy it

How do we reconcile thise two things?

er..maybe that non-jugglers want to be entertained, rather than watch something that someone else has to tell them is technically superior?

I'm just guessing...
People who aren't magicians enjoy sponge bunnies.

If we all got sent a clip of a cheeser, in a 'magic' tie, with a flashing bunny pin, doing sponge rabbits in a really stiff, ungraceful way...what would we do?

Would we try and get them to understand why it's not all that good? Would we wonder why the years we spent practising such and such a move is better?

Dunno...

But why the hell this thing got so popular so quickly fascinates me as a marketeer...

I don't think people need to be told Garfield is technically superior.

But it would be more fair to compare Garfield's regular act to Bliss's Beatles Tennis Balls.

Would they be more entertained? Dunno. I know I am. Especially his cruise ship act.

Maybe that's just me. I am not a layperson though.

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 3:22 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
AMAZING... hope you read it Mr. Goat! I checked with the Post to republsh it here, but they want $400.00 -- wowowowoweeeeeeeeeK
Yup I read it. Didn't really get any insights though - sadly.

The good thing is both Garfield and Bliss are getting more work because of all this though. Fair play to that! :)

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 3:24 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
It's turned into a He Said She Said. Nobody wins. However, IMHO, all that really matters is do you enjoy watching the act?
No. Not at all. The tricks are easy, the choreography sucks, and the guy simply cannot move.

I am intrigued by it, like watching a traffic accident. Why on earth is it so popular? That's what I am thinking. Whereas when I watch - say The Gandini Project, or Team RootBerry, I am entertained and enjoy the act.

Still as Dom says, fascinating thread. Really making me think about what a lay audience actually wants...

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 3:38 pm

Let's take this back to magic.

Chris Bliss, while perhaps not as technically sound as others, didn't flub the trick and got lots of press and talk on the net. Can you say David Blaine.

Magicians were mad that he did inferrior stuff, camera tricks and was bland, and complained. Can you say Mr. Goat

Another magician took his ideas, packaged and performed them better in a nicer package. Can you say Criss Angel?

So now the 5 ball guy, what was his name, should do the better routine and clean up all the rest of the money left on the table. Opportunity knocking!

Kirk

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Brad Henderson » April 11th, 2006, 3:53 pm

Chris Bliss's act is about more than mere juggling. It is a visual representation of a song through movement. To me, the 3 balls better convey the musical elements of the routine than 5.

And that is why that routine resonates with people. It does a good job of depicting the music. It is not the juggling that makes the clip special. Nor is it the music. It is the combination of the two which combine into an aesthetic unit greater than the sum of the parts.

I saw a drawing by Picasso. It was of a bull. It was also a single line. That was all he needed to convey "bull." More lines would actually make the drawing less "bullish."

Bliss's act is transcends the mere act of throwing stuff up in the air and catching it. It moves people.

I don't know about you, but I would rather use a gaffed deck and garner genuine emotional responses of wonder and amazement than master all the sleight of hand in the world in exchange for a "he does that very well."

Brad

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 3:53 pm

Originally posted by Kirk the Magician:
Let's take this back to magic.

Chris Bliss, while perhaps not as technically sound as others, didn't flub the trick and got lots of press and talk on the net. Can you say David Blaine.

Magicians were mad that he did inferrior stuff, camera tricks and was bland, and complained. Can you say Mr. Goat

Another magician took his ideas, packaged and performed them better in a nicer package. Can you say Criss Angel?

So now the 5 ball guy, what was his name, should do the better routine and clean up all the rest of the money left on the table. Opportunity knocking!

Kirk
Don't think Garfield's was a nicer package at all.

And please don't feel the need to capitalise or punctuate my name. It is either mrgoat or Damian.

:)

It's all about the magic, man. As Dom pointed out. What can we - as magi - learn from this?

When was a magician's clip circulated as widely as this?

(it hasn't been)

Why?

Guest

Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2006, 3:55 pm

Originally posted by Brad Henderson:
Chris Bliss's act is about more than mere juggling. It is a visual representation of a song through movement. To me, the 3 balls better convey the musical elements of the routine than 5.

And that is why that routine resonates with people. It does a good job of depicting the music. It is not the juggling that makes the clip special. Nor is it the music. It is the combination of the two which combine into an aesthetic unit greater than the sum of the parts.

I saw a drawing by Picasso. It was of a bull. It was also a single line. That was all he needed to convey "bull." More lines would actually make the drawing less "bullish."

Bliss's act is transcends the mere act of throwing stuff up in the air and catching it. It moves people.

I don't know about you, but I would rather use a gaffed deck and garner genuine emotional responses of wonder and amazement than master all the sleight of hand in the world in exchange for a "he does that very well."

Brad
There is one theory. It was the music that made it, not the juggling.

It sure as hell wasn't the choreography to the music, the movement to the music nor the juggling.

Maybe we should all do silent acts to the beatles?

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » April 11th, 2006, 4:12 pm

Originally posted by mrgoat:
There is one theory. It was the music that made it, not the juggling.

It sure as hell wasn't the choreography to the music, the movement to the music nor the juggling.
You seem to be implying that the same reaction would be garnered by simply passing around an mp3 of "Golden Slumbers/Carry That Weight/The End". As much as I like the Beatles (and that is quite a lot), I don't think that's the case. Rather, it was the songs, in combination with Chris's juggling that got the reaction.

If it was simply the music that got the reaction, then wouldn't Jason Garfield's video get passed around just as much as Chris Bliss's? The fact that it's not seems to indicate that it's Chris's routine working in combination with the music that people are enjoying.

Would Chris's routine get the same kind of reaction without the music? Doubtful. The routine and the music are inextricably linked and form a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

-Jim

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Re: Chris Bliss Diss

Postby Brad Henderson » April 11th, 2006, 4:14 pm

It was not just the music. If it were, the Garfield's routine would have resonated...and it didn't. It was the balance between the two. Regardless of what you think about the movement, for some reason, that coupled as it is with the music produces something neither on its own, or neither coupled with something else, has been able to do.


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