Taking it to the Streets

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2007, 1:59 pm

[I]With regard to the "honest money" comment - David Copperfield and Lance Burton (for example) pull in honest money because people pay in advance to see their shows. /I]

WRONG: IF I WANT TO GO TO THOSE SHOWS I HAVE TO PAY WHAT THEY WANT. THAT IS NOT HONEST MONEY THAT IS MANIPULATIVE.

if you go to a musical you have to pay upfront and don't know what is comming.

with a street performance you can see the show and pay afterwards what you think it is worth. that's "honest money".

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2007, 3:18 pm

For those of you coming late to the game Eric Evans is one of the authors of The Secret Art of Magic which is essentially Street Magic & The Art of War.

He knows a thing or two about busking, and gives a very entertaining and thoughtful lecture.

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2007, 3:25 pm

"the snide sarcasm expressed here is indicative of the attitude that characterizes your side of the argument, at least you seem to share it with Joey boy"

Hmmmm. I sense... tension.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, Erica.

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2007, 3:48 pm

Thanks Bill, that's a very kind introduction.

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Dustin Stinett » May 21st, 2007, 7:11 pm

The devolution of this thread has been fascinating. What started as a thread on the name of a different form of magic (that, I realized, is far from new) versus Street Magic (as it was defined until 1996) has turned into a compare and contrast discussion on busking versus begging.

Oh well (sigh).

Before I attempt to steer this is in the direction I originally intended, I just want to make some observations on some of the comments in this thread.

To my friend David: I think youre wrong on this one (I dont get to say that too often), but I understand your point.

Ian has made all the primary arguments, but I think Steve V. articulated it the best in his post about his brother.

Second, to my friend Diego: A metaphorical hat is not the same thing as a real one that is passed after a street show. Besides, unless Blaine has some kind of deal setup where he garners ancillary profits based on the shows ratings (does such a thing exist in TV?), I dont see him passing the hat at all. Hes paid what hes contracted to be paid (reruns included) regardless of how the show is received by the viewing audience.

Randys comment on the changes in language is what Im against in this case. As he pointed out, the semantic alterations and additions made to words and phrases is an ongoing process in any living language. But usually (not always) words and phrases change meaning because the old one is no longer viable (or at least common). So at issue here is that Street Magic is, I think, being misused. To call this Hit and Run style of magic Street Magic is wrong since it takes place in clubs, bars; all sorts of places. For the most part (yes, I recognize there are exceptions) busking takes place on the streets, in parks, and other outdoor areas. Also, the characteristics of the act are quite different.

Randy believes its too late, and hes probably correct (after all, its been more than a decade since the phrase was hijacked). But if the Hit and Run crowd likes the term (giving it street-cred as Dave said), and we start using it when talking about them, maybe they will migrate toward that and away from the old phrase.

As it turns out, one of my favorite historical icons of magic was, without a doubt, a Hit and Run performer on occasion. In fact, he was famous for it. The story of him ambushing Senator Mark Hanna on the steps of the Capitol Building is a great example of that form of magic (though Malini had a definite end in mind for his means). Of course, I doubt wed be able to convince the Blaine Gang that their type of magic is at the very least a full century old. So just pretend I didnt mention it.

Dustin

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2007, 7:41 pm

busking, begging... what about using a camera crew to ambush folks into being overly appreciative for being mugged?

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2007, 9:21 pm

My apologies if I steered this thread in a manner not in keeping with the accustomed decorum but it seemed germane to the topic at hand.

As for one of terminology, I believe there exists some terminology that has been previously acknowledged by many on many occasions and that is the term(s) "guerrilla" magic or a "commando" type act. Seems appropriate enough as the negative connotations of "hit and run" seem to detract from the likelihood of anyone using it.

As you were ;)

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 21st, 2007, 9:45 pm

Since this this is a magic thread, I didn't feel the need to qualify, that no one in MAGIC, understands television better than Blaine.

Dustin, I'll stick to my point: Those who watch Blaine on TV, or buskers on the street, either keep watching or walk/click away. By continuing to watch, they are induced to buy products/services, or pay the cable company or the busker.
A generation ago, it wasn't too uncommon to see someone pitching Svengali decks or the mouse on busy street corners...just as Marshall Brodien would later pitch his TV Magic Cards on the air.

Yes, depending on the contract, ratings can increase the payoff for the perfomer(s)...some shows are sold on the premise of acheiving a certain rating, or else concessions are made.
Likewise, like some infomercial deals, Mark Wilson may not have been paid a salary, put was paid, on a "per sale" basis.....just as Brodien may also have a "per sale" deal, when he pitches his sets on QVC.

There are some whose efforts on the streets, would only get charity dollars, but most people just walk away....There are performers, who do street theater, who can build and nail down their crowd, hold them, and turn them for the money.
Some ENTERTAINERS, who work Venice Beach and other venues, are good enough, that people bring their friends over to see them again.
In some venues, like Universal Studios CityWalk, only street performers who show talent and a professional demeanor, are auditioned/allowed to work there, otherwise they are gone.

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Dustin Stinett » May 22nd, 2007, 10:26 am

Diego,

Well have to agree to disagree on this one.

If I want to (legally) have cable TV in my home, I have to pay for it. I pay the fee that is determined by the provider regardless of how much (or even whether or not) I watch it.

With a busker, I have all the choices: Whether or not I watch, whether or not I pay, and how much I pay if I choose to do so.

I wish I had those choices with my television!

Dustin

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 11:35 am

Oh isnt it just so fashionable nowadays to bash street performers! Thank god for street magic. Perhaps more energy is better spent talking about bad magicians! Unfortunately many here simply miss the point. And most here need to realllllly get down off their high horses! Street Magic as it is being called today is about love of an art, nothing more or less which is just being presented in a different setting...not your cute cabaret shows, not making balloons for snotty nosed kids, not doing the redundant corporate thing for a bunch of old drunkards...and REAL street magic is certainly not about making money! It cant be, cause it dont pay that much with respect to the effort put into it! Magic is an art to be performed when given the chance whether it be on the street or indoors...Yes, some of you have had the good luck of being able to turn a hobby into a career. But again that is a very small percentage of lovers of this art...However, please remember back when most of you (before your gigs)went around to just about anyone who would (as in the words of Greg Wilson)"watch your silly little trick"...Whats a better way to do magic than by getting out and getting performing experience on the street. Trying to perform what you love to do in front of strangers takes courage and that is a special kind of MAGIC. Using your skills in front of, as one wrote "target", those who ordinarily would have no interest in magic. By the way, all spectators of magic are "targets".
Magic is art first. If you believe that there is some higher value in performing for some so-called respectable venue such as a club or stage, forget it...it just aint so! Those in it only for the money whether it be street or whatever are the real vipers to this wonderful art. I believe the real drive comes from the thrill and excitement of performing whether it be for a group of friends, clients, on t.v., or whatever, be it outdoors or in. So to all those calling themselves today street magicians I say go for it and do your thing as you are the real frontline performers to demonstrate our art to those perhaps unable, initially uninterested, or unwilling to go to PAY for a magic show. And for those lucky enough to be able to put on a show for money perhaps a bit more gratitude is due to these "street magic performers" who may just well be the catalysts to opening the the minds (and wallets) of those customers who will later pay for your show!...
Peace!

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Brad Henderson » May 22nd, 2007, 11:49 am


Street Magic as it is being called today is about love"Stre of an art, nothing more or less which is just being presented in a different setting..."
Actually. what I see are tricks which belong to other people being marketed by young bucks as their own with the lable "Street" attached. If we loved our art, we would respect it, and those who came before us, no? If we loved our art we would make sure the material we released was new, innovative, or the very least practical. We would not put out someone else's coin routine and then say, when warned it belonged to a well known underground coin man, "We'll just put out that fire when we have to." "Street magic" is a creation of magic dealers. It is, to reference Swiss, a great big lie. Do we lie about something we respect or love?


"By the way, all spectators of magic are "targets"."
Do you really mean this? If so, then your approach typifies the stupidity seen on several videos where magicians call spectators by the wrong name, or touch their face, just because THEY think it is funny. Magic is about sharing an experience. It is about treating people with respect. It is not about turning them into "targets" and using them as you get your own rocks off at their expense. Maybe the "street magic" sellers should actually take a moment to teach something about being a human being...wait...they wouldn't make any money telling people to practice and respect others. That's not "cool." Instead, let's tell them to put people in choke holds...yeah, that's love for an art!


Brad

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 12:00 pm

We seem to have split off into two distinct discussions

1) Who and how we recognize of those who perform on the streets. Certainly no criticism of Sheridan or Gazzo or even the TV magicians like Cyril and Angel here.

2) The marketing of magic product (to muggles?) under the presupposed title of "street magic".

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 1:07 pm

Robert Blake wrote:
[I]With regard to the "honest money" comment - David Copperfield and Lance Burton (for example) pull in honest money because people pay in advance to see their shows. /I]

WRONG: IF I WANT TO GO TO THOSE SHOWS I HAVE TO PAY WHAT THEY WANT. THAT IS NOT HONEST MONEY THAT IS MANIPULATIVE.

if you go to a musical you have to pay upfront and don't know what is comming.

with a street performance you can see the show and pay afterwards what you think it is worth. that's "honest money".
BULL!!!! People normally go to musicals with at least a basic knowledge of what they are going to see, if they don't attend an opening night performance.

The same thing is true of opera, although it is still possible for some idiot to really f*ck up an opera. The recent production of Aida that I saw had sets that looked like they were designed by either a six year old on drugs or a whacked-out druggie, who used Egyptian symbols because they looked cool, rather than because they meant certain things. The desert plants looked like they were drawn by Dr, Seuss.

That was dishonest money, in my book. All the worse, because it was partially subsidized by public funding.

Good buskers do give value for the money. But I have seen really bad ones who did nothing and expected to be paid. These costumed beggars need to be moved out of the pitches.

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 1:12 pm

Actually. what I see are tricks which belong to other people being marketed by young bucks as their own with the lable "Street" attached
Oh I see...so what you are saying is you dont like the stealing of tricks and marketing it as your own!!! Ummm, some the old bucks do that too to make a buck, but they usually have the common sense to give a line of credit or two before they sell you that trick. If thats your beef...ok Im with you there, but excuse me, that has absolutely nothing to do with what street magic is all about...Your talking about something which is prevalent throughout the magic world..If the word Street is attached its only because that is the "cool" word which makes it more marketable to a younger crowd...It could be magic, a pair of sneakers, clothes, or what have you...Again that has nothing to do with street magic.

...If so, then your approach typifies the stupidity seen on several videos where magicians call spectators by the wrong name, or touch their face, just because THEY think it is funny.
What in the Out Of this World are YOU talking about?! And...did you BUY those several so-called "street magic" videos?! If so I guess the marketing works!LOL

...It is not about turning them into "targets" and using them as you get your own rocks off at their expense
Hmmm...get my rocks off?! Wow! Brad your definition of "target" only reflects your own perhaps perverse and limited thinking with regards to street magic.
It has nothing to do with the negative connotation given by you. Webster.Look it up.It is.."something or someone to be affected by an action or development". Nothing negative there. A spectator is a passive participant...A "target" is more easily defined as an active participant specifically selected by the magician for whatever qualities they have to make the magic more enjoyable (not less), whether that be a spirit of cooperation, a certain calmness to allow the magician to perform, or even an overly hyper response to make it that much more entertaining for others also watching the effect. Anyone with performing experience knows that by looking for a good "target" you are actively seeking those who are willing to work with you on an effect, thereby making it a pleasant sharing magical experience. A "target" is NOT annoyed by his or her interaction with you. Obviously during a routine, you would not actively seek out someone who will not cooperate with you, that would be a "bad" target. Therefore, yes all spectators who are selected to work with you, either actively or passively in a routine are "targets". Any intelligent person let alone magician/mentalist actively seeks the right type of person to work with...to perform his or her trick for in order to maximize results.
Full stop.

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 1:16 pm

Michael Dawson wrote:
Oh isnt it just so fashionable nowadays to bash street performers! Thank god for street magic. Perhaps more energy is better spent talking about bad magicians! Unfortunately many here simply miss the point. And most here need to realllllly get down off their high horses! Street Magic as it is being called today is about love of an art, nothing more or less which is just being presented in a different setting...not your cute cabaret shows, not making balloons for snotty nosed kids, not doing the redundant corporate thing for a bunch of old drunkards...and REAL street magic is certainly not about making money! It cant be, cause it dont pay that much with respect to the effort put into it! Magic is an art to be performed when given the chance whether it be on the street or indoors...Yes, some of you have had the good luck of being able to turn a hobby into a career. But again that is a very small percentage of lovers of this art...However, please remember back when most of you (before your gigs)went around to just about anyone who would (as in the words of Greg Wilson)"watch your silly little trick"...Whats a better way to do magic than by getting out and getting performing experience on the street. Trying to perform what you love to do in front of strangers takes courage and that is a special kind of MAGIC. Using your skills in front of, as one wrote "target", those who ordinarily would have no interest in magic. By the way, all spectators of magic are "targets".
Magic is art first. If you believe that there is some higher value in performing for some so-called respectable venue such as a club or stage, forget it...it just aint so! Those in it only for the money whether it be street or whatever are the real vipers to this wonderful art. I believe the real drive comes from the thrill and excitement of performing whether it be for a group of friends, clients, on t.v., or whatever, be it outdoors or in. So to all those calling themselves today street magicians I say go for it and do your thing as you are the real frontline performers to demonstrate our art to those perhaps unable, initially uninterested, or unwilling to go to PAY for a magic show. And for those lucky enough to be able to put on a show for money perhaps a bit more gratitude is due to these "street magic performers" who may just well be the catalysts to opening the the minds (and wallets) of those customers who will later pay for your show!...
Peace!
Man! Who peed in your lemonade?

Did someone who was one of those (in YOUR opinion) "bad" magicians knock you out of a booking?

Trying to do so-called street magic to total strangers requires only chutzpah and a lack of shame. There was a guy who used to come to the night clubs I worked in who made me ashamed to even be the same SPECIES he was. He would come in wearing a pressed felt top hat and a children's magician's cape that came down just below his waist. He would sit near the bandstand and wait until he caught someone's eye. Then he would produce an appearing cane, and look at the poor spectator for approval. Or he would pluck a half dollar out of the air (or drop it!) and look for approval.

I didn't have to say much to him. The owner of the club threw him out.

But that didn't sour me on all magicians, or even all amateurs.

If you think of all of your spectators as targets, you are in the wrong genre. Get a peashooter, instead,

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 1:28 pm

I dont drink lemonade...and I think it is pissed, isnt it? Or at least thats the way we say it in the "streets"...Anyway...

I already make a very good living doing what I do, thank you.

I constantly study and perform magic due to the love of the art (and quite well I might add) and thrill of the performance and dont need to perform to make the ends meet. But if I did I m sure as a street magician it wouldnt be with a pressed felt top hat and a children's magician's cape nor would it be with a Harry Potter style wizards hat! :p

The fellow you are talking about sounds more like a nerd bum and would never qualify as a magician...street or otherwise!

chutzpah yes... :cool: Lack of shame? Only if you havent practiced...

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 1:41 pm

Michael Dawson wrote>>>please remember back when most of you (before your gigs)went around to just about anyone who would (as in the words of Greg Wilson)"watch your silly little trick"...>>>

So, what you call "Street Magic", we used to call "practice".

No wonder you can't get anyone to pay you for it...

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 1:49 pm

LOL....I didnt say I cant get anyone to pay for it.
I said I dont NEED to get paid to make the ends meet...
Umm Dee read my last post above...
And for your information, with my some 35 years experience, you will come to learn that every time you perform a trick it is in some way a type of practice. A new move here and new idea there...To date...Ive seen a LOt of performers, and some very good ones I might add... but so far, I aint seen a perfect trick yet!
Actually if you follow my logic which obviously you dont,(apparently my explanations are like trying to explain hip hop music to a lover of classical) Im quite against the prostitution of the art of magic for money. The decline of magic as art is if or when it becomes all about the money!

And who the hell is DeeBrennan anyway? Dont seem to find your name up in lights anywhere...LOL! :p

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 22nd, 2007, 1:55 pm

I'm finding this to be a very interesting thread: it represents a collision between the new and currently evolving generation of young magicians entering our field and the folks who are already in our field (and entered in a different way without the Internet).

My views are fairly different from those of Jamy Ian Swiss in his article in Antimony that seems to have lifted the lid on discussions like this. I see those who are becoming interested in "magic" through websites like eillusionist and Penquin to be just as qualified and valid in their interest as those of us who entered through brick and mortar magic shops. It's the way in which our field has evolved, and the evolution isn't over yet and won't be for about a decade.

I think there's a pretty good analogy to the emergence of Rock and Roll in the 1950s and the reactions of parents at the time.
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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 22nd, 2007, 2:01 pm

Hey Richard glad to see you here today..we met for a moment at Blackpool this year..I was the one listening to hip hop music...lol

I used to walk some 10 miles to Hollywood Magic shop on Hollywood blvd. years and years ago...to spend hours to just watch the clerks perform and when I could afford to, buy some of those wonderful tricks I saw demonstrated. Later on one of my very interesting neighbours in N.Hollywood was Larry Jennings.He was incredible to listen to, even if for just brief moments.All this is said to explain that, yes, while I guess Im very old school in training...brick and mortar and all that stuff (not to mention countless hours of book readings).That was then,,this is now, And the performance of magic for the layman has changed whether many of you like it or not.. I now have renewed deeper passion and excitement for all this new school approach. I believe this new "street magic approach" will only push the art of magic to be even more creative, entertaining, and available to both students and a larger, more diverse audience.

Perhaps many of you old-timer magicians are just afraid of being pushed aside....???

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Brad Henderson » May 22nd, 2007, 4:59 pm

Michael,

"street magic" has been the new rallying call for magical marketeers. And I do have a problem with that. As Jamy says, they are selling a false bill of goods. And one of the issues is the resale of other peoples ideas. Yes, it happens with other magicians too, but I do not think you see the wholesale rape of ideas as you do in some of the less ethical, more street, vendors. (and at least when it does happen, the target market place at least has enough background to recognize that person as a pyriah (spelling?).

As to targets, "target" does have a negative connotation. And when you read about "Street Magic" or listen to "street magicians" on their DVDs, they do (often) treat the audiences like victims - they even call them that. The examples I gave come from one "street" magic poster child. And his example does more harm for magic then good.

Now, could there exist DVDs and books geared to young people (or old people) interested in this guerella style magic that are filled with good advice, performance tips, and clever material?

Of course there could be.

And I would welcome them.

But when I look at the material being sold, I do not see that. Instead I see someone who knows he is selling others work and is just willing to ignore the heat as is wallet gets fatter and fatter.

No matter how you slice it, that is neither respect nor love.

When the purveyors of Street Magic start leading by example - a good example - then maybe attitudes will change. Until then, I'll just sigh and watch Andrew Goldenhersh's beautiful choreography get lifted, and Bob Neale's original work get copied without anyone bothering to ask if it were ok to profit from their work.

Sigh.

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 2:05 am

Come on man get real...
Just because someone writes a book and quotes the source of a trick doesnt mean that he isnt profiting off of anothers creative thinking. Is it that much different from what you apparently are offended by with street magic marketers? Listen, this arguement has gone round and round for as long as you and I have lived within the magic community. "My trick is called Linking Lifesavers...your trick is called Linking Mints, you stole my trick!" Boo Hoo.
Again this has nothing to do with street magic.
And at what point does wholesale rape of ideas as you call it become more ethical in one instance and not in another? Just because you change the color of your cards, do a triple lift instead of a double, change the name of the trick but conveniently quote your original source because this is proper magic community etiquette? Give me a break. Hypocracy at its highest level. But O.K. as President Jimmy Carter once said, "Lifes not fair." I can accept that.
Sorry Brad your logic doesnt hold...You simply sound like a "hater".

And while the same may be true for marketers of tricks for street magicians, it has always been the name of the game to try to sell your tricks to as many people as possible. Amateurs, professionals, whoever! Ask yourself how many times you bought a trick due to what later was misleading ad copy? The only thing street magic marketers are doing is streamline targeting their products to a supposedly niche market.
Again sounds like the problem you have is with the way a product is being sold, not with street magic per se.
As to targets, "target" does have a negative connotation. And when you read about "Street Magic" or listen to "street magicians" on their DVDs, they do (often) treat the audiences like victims - they even call them that. The examples I gave come from one "street" magic poster child. And his example does more harm for magic then good.
Oh brother :rolleyes: Again you make my point. The term street magic obviously is enough, Brad, to strike your interest to the point where you were willing to read those articles and watch those videos. Need I say more...

I own quite a large collection of magic DVDs, including several of performers of whom would be clasified as "street magicians". And I have never...repeat..NEVER seen a person victimized as you put it neither in the performances nor implied in the instructional portion of the videos. I think you are just blowing hot air on this one and I just have to call you on it. And unless this supposed street magician you are referring to considers him or herself to be the Don Rickles of magic and it is part of their own routine, I think that type of approach is simply professional suicide and again is not typical of street magic and/or street magic performers either young or old. If possible PM me with the name or title of the DVD of this so-call victimizer. I would seriously like to know who he or she is but Im inclined to think there wont be any merit to your claim and exists only to pad your arguement.

When the purveyors of Street Magic start leading by example - a good example - then maybe attitudes will change.
Whose attitude? Yours? I doubt it...your thinking is narrow and old fashioned, and will probably stay that way...The street magicians IVE seen, both live and on DVD are only about a positive approach to magic and with their audiences. There is a long list of very positive magicians doing their thing for their willing and enthusiastic "targets" on the streets. Stop being a "hater" Brad.

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 4:53 am

I sincerely doubt anyone here is disputing the legitimacy of street magic per-se.

I'm not so pleased to see the practice of taking other people's material condoned though. However, thanks to the internet such appears to be something between graffiti tagging and a public service. I'm not going to suggest such is part of any hip-hop ethic.

To have more magic performaned for people seems a good thing. Here's hoping for the best. -jt

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 5:54 am

The street magicians IVE seen, both live and on DVD are only about a positive approach to magic and with their audiences. There is a long list of very positive magicians doing their thing for their willing and enthusiastic "targets" on the streets. Stop being a "hater" Brad.>>>>

Your argument is devolving, Michael. By calling Brad a "hater", you presume WAY too much. And by saying "long list", and "very enthusiastic", you're setting up assertions you can't possibly prove.

It would be like me saying, "Since you're around 40, yet listen to hip-hop, and use phrases like "hater", you must be one of those middle-aged men who pathetically try to hang onto some semblence of youth by adoping the fads of the young." That wouldn't be fair, would it?

As for the rest, no one is denying the legitimacy of running up to a perfect stranger and forcing magic tricks upon them. Hell, Mary Poppins did that to the poor Banks family in chapter two, so there certainly is a precedent.

What people seem to be objecting to is the misappropriation of the term 'Street Magic.' Calling the hit-n-run style 'Street' is as ludicrous as calling it "Grand Illusion".

Oh, and, should you ever see my name in lights, I'm fairly certian it will be billed above yours. ;)

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 6:01 am

Nichael wrote>>>There is a long list of very positive magicians doing their thing for their willing and enthusiastic "targets" on the streets.>>>

That must be why Street Magic magazine's first issue contained an article on how to defend yourself using a choke hold.

P&L
D

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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 8:50 am

And by saying "long list", and "very enthusiastic", (street magiciains)you're setting up assertions you can't possibly prove.....

Ummm ok....
# Cyril
# Luna Shimada
# Handlordz
# Dynamo this kid is very good
# Morgan Strebler
# Reed McClintock
# Orbit Brown
# Oz Pearlman
# Peter Eggink
# Angela Funovitz
# Marco Tempest
# Danny Garcia
# Jay Noblezada

I would say these are just a few of the most popular who would qualify as street magicians and not one of them presents anything in anyway negative....
Umm still waiting for that list of victimizers...

Since you're around 40, yet listen to hip-hop, and use phrases like "hater", you must be one of those middle-aged men who pathetically try to hang onto some semblence of youth by adoping the fads of the young. That wouldn't be fair, would it?/QUOTE]

Perhaps but it still doesnt disprove my arguement...LOL...actually "hater" where Im from has been around much longer than you may know...which also goes to prove why you dont understand where street magicians get their drive. But...you also forgot to add above well-educated, well-travelled, six digit income earning,good husband, good father, and just all around nice guy...

Mary Poppins? Did he make reference to MARY POPPINS? You must be a childrens magician...LOL

Oh, and, should you ever see my name in lights, I'm fairly certain it will be billed above yours.
Are you using should as in the conditional? Ok Ill bite...actually we wouldnt even be on the same bill...as this street magician doesnt perform to make a living, he does it because he enjoys the art of magic and simply performing. And while I continue travel around the world doing what I love (oh thats a fact by the way and not an IF) perhaps one day I will see your name up in lights, Ill say "good for you" and come in to see hopefully a good performance. I wont degrade this forum topic any longer with responding to demeaning comments. Richard close the post...please... ;)

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4546
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Brad Henderson » May 23rd, 2007, 9:12 am

Michael, please go down your list and identify which people actually perform on the streets as their livlihood, which have performed for television shows which happened to be filmed on the streets (Jamy's) argument, and which ones sell an image that what they do on a regular basis is perform magic on the streets when in fact they actually perform in other venues or simply make their living as a magic dealer.

Perhaps I am not the person who has fallen for the hype.

As for the example I gave, it exists. In fact, his name is listed on your list. More so, when he has been criticized for lifting other peoples material, his "friends" have threatened those who were concerned with very real violence and posted defamatory material about others.

Now, is that love, is that respect?

Yes I have read the videos and seen the magazines, not from succesful marketing, but to see what is being sold off as someone elses original idea now. And simply because theft has occured before, does not make it an ethical practice now. People have murdered others for years, does that mean we start condoning it?

When I look at the theft in the mainstream market now I see people who take a stand. When I see theft in the "street magic market" now I see someone who has said "I will deal with that when I have to."

I see someone who seems to have included fake ads to give their magazine legitamacy.

I see someone who has people threatened when their misdeeds are called out.

I see someone who refuses to have a cogent argument and instead threatens and bullys others.

I don't see that (with the exception of one or two cretins) in the mainstream world.

So, is it really about love and respect, Michael? Or is it about profiting off of people who do not know better and padding one's own wallet?

Brad

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 9:21 am

Michael wrote>>>But...you also forgot to add above well-educated, well-travelled, six digit income earning,good husband, good father, and just all around nice guy...>>>>

Fantastic! You're a wealthy man in all the ways that really count. Congrats.

I was wondering, you list your occupation as "Magician", yet you've indicated you don't perform for a living. I'm puzzled by the apparent contradiction.

And hey, if I was a children's magician, why would you find that to be worthy of laughter and scorn?

P&L
D

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 9:44 am

Serious questions...

1)What tangible difference in style, method, and entertainment value is there between a 'Street' magician--using Michael Dawson's definition--and all the others who do get paid?

2)What have "Street" magicians done that has radically altered and/or avanced the art of magic?

P&L
D

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 11:41 am

list your occupation as "Magician" ...puzzled by the apparent contradiction
I preferred that, rather than putting my actual occupation in this forum. I have,however, been paid to perform as well as have created effects for others although that is not my main source of income.

if I was a children's magician, why would you find that to be worthy of laughter and scorn
I dont. I found your referrence to Mary Poppins amusing. Mary Poppins???? LOL!!!

1)What tangible difference in style, method, and entertainment value is there between a 'Street' magician--using Michael Dawson's definition--and all the others who do get paid?
In a general since...none. That is exactly my point.
What have "Street" magicians done that has radically altered and/or advanced the art of magic?
They have singlehandedly in a very short period of time opened the door of interest to an art (which most said was dying only several years ago)to those who ordinarily wouldnt have the express interest, motivation, ability, desire, let alone pay to see a good magic performance. Im currently in Italy and dont think in my life I have ever seen so many tv programs regarding magic on air. Angel.Tempest.Cyril. A program called Freak. Another program, i dont recall the name,with two British guys travelling around Europe performing street style magic and meeting up with famous magicians like Tamarez. Another specifically in Italian language called MagiXster.And these are just to name a few. And 90% of these presentation are in street magic format. There was a fairly decent Italian magic show called Danger with a well known actor/magician who performed in an auditorium type of setting. The show was cancelled after threee or four airings.
And those who know me , many now go out of their way to ask me to do something (a trick) for them or group of friends while we are just out somewhere. They seem to like the impromptu nature of most of my tricks which are now being promoted by marketers as "street magic".
David Cooperfield was here in my city about 4 months ago. He had less than 300 people in attendance with a potential capacity of 5000-6000. Go figure...

Did you see the comment today by future NBA number one draft pick Greg Oden? He said on his upcoming NIKE/Porland TrailBlazer visit that he hopes to catch a some good magic. I happen to know that Greg got hooked on magic by watching a very good "street magic" type of performer. ;)
Last but not least, "street-style" magic has also significantly altered the way our younger performers will want to test their performance and presentation skills before moving on perhaps to more "traditional" venues of performing. Is that enough? P/L

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 12:15 pm

if I was a children's magician, why would you find that to be worthy of laughter and scorn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont. I found your referrence to Mary Poppins amusing. Mary Poppins???? LOL!!!>>>

Well, she shows up and does magic tricks for people who haven't asked for them or sought them out. EXACTLY like a Hit-n-Run magician.

>>>>They have singlehandly in a very short period of time opened the door of interest to an art (which most said was dying only several years ago)to those who ordinarily wouldnt have the express interest, motivation, ability, desire, let lone pay to see a good magic performance.>>>>

Zzzzzzzzzz. "Magic is Dying" is an oft-heard phrase that has been repeatedly proven to be untrue for a couple-hundred years now. Interest in magic, like anthing else, comes and goes in cycles. Next?

>>>Im currently in Italy and dont think in my life I have ever seen so many tv programs regarding magic on air. Angel.Tempest.Cyril. A program called Freak. Another specifically in Italian language called MagiXster.And these are just to name a few. And 90% are in street magic format.>>>

The artists you mentioned rely heavily on restrictive camera angles and edtiting techniques...what's "Street" about that? Next?

>>>And those who know me , now go out of their way to ask me to do something (a trick) for them or group of friends>>>

Cool! What's your favorite thing to perform for them?

>>>David Cooperfield was here in my city about 4 months ago. He had less than 300 people in attendance with a potential capacity of 5000-6000. Go figure...>>>

Did you see the show? David is clearly bored out of his skull onstage. It's no wonder his audience is dwindling. Now, should he raid his own warehouse and put together a 'Greatest Hits" show where every illusion is a killer, and should he get excited about that show, his crowd will come back. David's dwindling audience does not indicate an audiential swing toward "Street".

>>>Did you see the comment today by future NBA number one draft pick Greg Oden? He said on his upcoming NIKE/Porland TrailBlazer visit that he hopes to catch a some good magic. I happen to know that Greg got hooked on magic by watching a very good "street magic" type of performer.>>>

As opposed to, say, Muhammed Ali who didn't get hooked that way. It's an interesting story to tell your kids, sure, but not exactly a trend. Next?

>>>Last but not least, "street-style" magic has also significantly altered the way our younger performers will want to test their performance and presentation skills before moving on perhaps to more "traditional" venues of performing.>>>

It's fascinating that you should apply this in such a blanket fashion without any proof, but OK, stipulated. Now, what will they have learned doing hit-n-run that will prepare them for more "traditional" venues that they could not have learned IN 'traditional' venues?

In other words, there's nothing new, here. New magicians (and old) have been inflicting tricks on friends and strangers, unasked, for as long as there has been magic. Hell, Alan Funt did it on TV 50 years ago and called it "Candid Camera".


P&L,
D

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 1:00 pm

Thank you. If you supposed there is no difference then perhaps you have finally arrived to point I was making initially which was there is no need to bash that which is the opposite sides of the same coin. ;)

Well, she shows up and does magic tricks for people who haven't asked for them or sought them out. EXACTLY like a Hit-n-Run magician...

Perhaps but she was, like street magic performers, memorably amusing..

Interest in magic, like anthing else, comes and goes in cycles...

True but street magicians have bought a renewed interest unlike any that I have seen in the last 35 years.

Artists you mentioned rely heavily on restrictive camera angles and edtiting techniques...what's "Street" about that?
Nothing.. but its the style and manner presented which is now reflected on and by younger magicians who wish to copy such performances in a street setting.

What's your favorite thing to perform for them? If referring only to street type then the list is long but ok... perhaps STS, healed and sealed, various standing card tricks, an occasional mental effect, perhaps one of my original version coin in coke bottle effects, perhaps a PK ring watch stop, and well some others...Thanks for asking.

Did you see the show?
No offense to David but no not even if you paid me. After 35 years...been there done that.

Muhammed Ali who didn't get hooked that way...
Thats cause he didnt have the same type of presentation back then as you do today with street magic.

but not exactly a trend...
Only time will tell.

Final comments, those tradition venues of learning magic, unless you know something I dont, just aint the same as years ago when I started. Libraries are closing or are no longer unavailable for those wonderful books which were sitting on shelves. Club numbers have dropped until recently as Ive been told. And well,frankly, I must say you simply dont need those traditional avenues of learning and performing in this day and age ...

In other words, there's nothing new, here. New magicians (and old) have been inflicting tricks on friends and strangers, unasked for as long as there has been magic. Hell, Alan Funt did it on TV 50 years ago and called it "Candid Camera"
WHAT?! Did you just say that?! So you mean Alan Funt and others were hit and run tricksters on strangers (i.e TARGETS!!!)for years and years?!
I rest my case. No more for me here...Ill see you in another topic...Thanks for the discourse!
Michael

Brad Henderson
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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Brad Henderson » May 23rd, 2007, 3:41 pm

Yes, they were. They played practical jokes on strangers. I, personally, think magic has the potential to be a little more than a sharp stick to poke someone with for our own amusement.

To each their own.

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 4:47 pm

This guy is like a lame-o version of Lewis. :rolleyes:

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 6:00 pm

Michael wrote>>>True but street magicians have bought a renewed interest unlike any that I have seen in the last 35 years.>>>

And that's a good thing....why? Have we not learned the lesson of comedy clubs? The 80's brought an exposion of comics. Now, in the 00's, standup comedy is overexposed, generic, and generally unfunny. You have to wade through a LOT of Dane Cooks to get to one Lewis Black.

The Lewis Blacks of magic will always find a way in, but I'm not so sure I want to have to wade through a bunch of magical Dane Cooks to get to him.

P&L
D

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Dustin Stinett » May 23rd, 2007, 7:16 pm

At this point, Im thrilled to know that Im not the only one who thinks Dane Cook is not at all funny (while just thinking of Lewis Black brings a smile to my face; the guy is hysterical).

Purely from the point of view of a capitalist, the more people interested in magic the better. (But doesnt that fly in the face of the Magic is art first point of view from Mr. Dawsons first post? :confused: )

Of course, interest doesnt have to mean an interest in performing.

But, if youre not performing a performance art, is it still art?

Dustin

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 23rd, 2007, 8:25 pm

But, if youre not performing a performance art, is it still art?

Dustin >>>>

Or, to take that one step further by using Mr. Dawson's logic, the purest form of magic performance would eliminate ANY kind of audience.

When an audience is present, the performance is compromised so that the onlooker(s)can "see" the effect and "hear" what the magician is saying.

Damn, "Street" magicians are such artistic whores...

P&L
D

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 24th, 2007, 11:47 am

Interest in magic, like anything else, comes and goes in cycles. Next?
Your quote.

Ok you guys got me...Im still taking the bite on your comments and coming back for more...
If Im following you correctly and the 80s bought an explosion of comedy clubs and comedians (I think you are also suggesting then that many GOOD comedians came out of this explosion,however, correct me if Im not following your logic). And this correlation is being made to todays street magician performers...then shouldnt it follow that also out of todays explosion many GOOD magicians will come forward as well despite what you describe as a negative consequence some twenty years later in the comedy field? Which by the way I dont agree with I think there are some very talented comedians today as well...but that is for another forum... ;)

Purely from the point of view of a capitalist, the more people interested in magic the better. (But doesnt that fly in the face of the Magic is art first point of view from Mr. Dawsons first post? [Confused]
IF you look at it FROM the point of a capitalist, then you are right, and could easily understand how you might be confused...However, Im not talking about it from that point of view. Let me explain...If you can, try to imagine going to Paris or Rome and seeing hundreds of artists lined up draw your portrait...Are they there because they are going to make it rich..No. Are some good and some bad...Yes. But from a purely artisitc point of view they are there everyday because they love to draw...Does it matter to them if they have the chance to draw one or fifty that day, perhaps from a CAPITALIST point of view yes, because that is where your money got mixed with the love of your art.Now for someone like that the value of their art lies in how much can they profit from do it. In fact their self value is determined by something which to them is a greater goal...IF Im good I will make a lot of money. Which is just the opposite of what I have been trying to describe to you what is the goal of most of the street magicians or performers that I know. So, who are the whores? Those who love to perform whether they are paid or not...or those whose first priority is to pack em in the theater as many as they can get?! Remember a street performer is paid AFTER the service is performed and there is no guarantee that they will receive anything.. BUT just like those picture artists I described above a street magician gets their satisfaction comes from a different source and it aint money. I know this is a difficult concept to grasp for most, especially in America, where the sole value of a persons satisfaction and worth is based on $$$
Again another topic for another forum...

Or, to take that one step further by using Mr. Dawson's logic, the purest form of magic performance would eliminate ANY kind of audience.
That would be your logic...not mine. Which by the way I dont find very logical as all magicians primary satisfaction should come in the form of thrill and excitement of the performance in front of others...

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 24th, 2007, 12:10 pm

>>>If Im following you correctly and the 80s bought an explosion of comedy clubs and comedians (I think you are also suggesting then that many GOOD comedians came out of this explosion,however, correct me if Im not following your logic). And this correlation is being made to todays street magician performers...then shouldnt it follow that also out of todays explosion many GOOD magicians will come forward as well despite what you describe as a negative consequence some twenty years later in the comedy field?>>>>>>

It doesn't follow at all. As I already observed, the truly dedicated and talented magicians will find a way in---as they always have---regardless of whether hit-n-run magic flourishes or doesn't.

P&L
D

Guest

Re: Taking it to the Streets

Postby Guest » May 24th, 2007, 12:18 pm

>>>Let me explain...If you can, try to imagine going to Paris or Rome and seeing hundreds of artists lined up draw your portrait.>>>

Assuming I wanted my portrait painted, I would then have to wade through 95 hacks before I could sort out the 5 or 3 or 2 who really have talent.

Whereas, if the (fictional) "Street Painting" surge had not taken place, the truly talented with a burning desire to paint would STILL have been there, regardless of the current "Street Painting" fad that the other 95 will drop as soon as something new comes along.

P&L
D


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