who is wesley james

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Glenn Bishop
Posts: 650
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 10:52 am

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 19th, 2008, 3:38 pm

David Alexander wrote:Sorry, Cugel, but not the sort of "application" I was thinking about.


Right on David I agree with everything that you have posted. And if I may add for learning "entertaining" card magic in my opinion there are a lot more books that teach entertaining card magician that are better than Erdnase.

(I know that David and many magicians reading this know this)

Yet learning magic in my opinion - learning the technique or the tricks of entertaining card magic - does not guarantee the student will become a good entertainer when doing the card routines.

That takes a whole different kind of an education. And that is learned and only learned by doing shows and getting "experience" doing shows and "working".

Richard Kaufman wrote:And Charlie Miller, too--it was quite amazing when I saw him lecture at Herb Zarrow's house and he did so much of the material from Erdnase. What he used it for, if he did, I have no idea.


What a great observation - thanks very much for posting this Richard. I have seen this a lot with a lot of magicians of the old school that I have met in magic.

Being able to do it and then using it in a performance situation are two different things. And an education in two different "schools" in magic.

Just my opinion.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 19th, 2008, 5:47 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote:
David Alexander wrote:Sorry, Cugel, but not the sort of "application" I was thinking about.


Right on David I agree with everything that you have posted. And if I may add for learning "entertaining" card magic in my opinion there are a lot more books that teach entertaining card magician that are better than Erdnase.


Actually I agree that there are easier books from which to learn card magic, and I always enjoy reading David Alexander's comments on theatrical magic - though I would suggest Erdnase has some stimulating and at least amusing comments about performance.

But that wasn't what I was talking about. What I was talking about was David Alexander's post above where he advises:

David Alexander wrote:
There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.



The fact is, if you are referring to application of Erdnase's techniques to Euchre, other trick based games and 'pass the deck' poker, Erdnase gives ample explanation of how the moves are applied within the game. For example:

The dealer holds the location of the cut until the hands are dealt. Then the desired cards can be dealt from the bottom during the next deal. This moment, after the first deal, is the most favorable, as the players are occupied with their hands, the cut has been made quite regularly, the deal finished and consequently there is less cause for close scrutiny. But principally... [continues at length]..."


I don't know what other applications David Alexander was referring to, but I would be interested to read his explanation without getting distracted on a tangential issue related to Erdnase's Legerdemain section. If the application he was referring to was commercial magic then perhaps he should have written "how to apply them to strolling magic" rather than "how to apply them to getting the money in a game."

User avatar
Nourdin
Posts: 32
Joined: May 17th, 2008, 2:57 pm

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Nourdin » May 19th, 2008, 6:18 pm

you guyssssssssssssssssssssssssss
I just want more information about how to make my bottom deal more deceptive because its obvious to see from top ( the top doesnt move is what my friends tell me )

So all I want to know is which bottom deal is best. I understand nobody wants to say exactly how. It wouldnt be magic! but at least tell me which direction I should think off. Mechanic? Erdnase?
Erdnase !

rage
Posts: 135
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: who is wesley james

Postby rage » May 19th, 2008, 7:02 pm

I am no expert bottom dealer by any means. However, there is no bottom deal that is "best."

You have to do the research and find as many methods as you can. Once you do this you will be able to answer your question yourself. You will find a method that is "best" for you.
with an N

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 20th, 2008, 5:12 am

Still keen to read David Alexander's clarification on what sort of application he was referring to.

Glenn Bishop
Posts: 650
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 10:52 am

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 20th, 2008, 7:46 am

David Alexander wrote:Nourdin,

There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.



Again another great observation David - learning the moves and then learning how to "use" the moves so that they will work at "crunch time" is a different school of magic.

I have met a lot of magicians over my lifetime and many of them know and can do a lot of card moves - but the moves were not road tested.

Just my opinion.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 20th, 2008, 8:12 am

Silly Walter, your post is not helpful. I am actually interested in David Alexander's thinking on this issue.

Glenn Bishop's last post is also unhelpful and indicates he is deliberately being contrarian and obtuse or that he simply doesn't actually understand the point of this discussion as it relates to the Alexander comment.

Just my opinion, Bishop.

Glenn Bishop
Posts: 650
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 10:52 am

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 20th, 2008, 8:45 am

Cugel wrote:Glenn Bishop's last post is also unhelpful and indicates he is deliberately being contrarian and obtuse or that he simply doesn't actually understand the point of this discussion as it relates to the Alexander comment.

Just my opinion, Bishop.


It may be unhelpful to some but in my opinion I think I do understand David's comment.

It has to do with the issues of learning magic and not performing magic in my opinion. Erdnase may talk of application in "theory" and when he does that is one of the great illusions of the book.

In my opinion in the way Erdnase writes it seems like "to me" that is that he "used" what he writes about. And that is one of the great illusions of the book. And why I call it an illusion is that often that "illusion" is shattered when the student takes the material and then they "use" it themselves and find out just how "practical" the techniques and ideas are when "they themselves" apply that knowledge in a real world situation.

That real world situation would be doing a show - or for the card cheat - cheating at the card table.

I agree with David if he is saying that the book of Erdnase doesn't teach application - it has application theory in my opinion but the only way to apply the application of the techniques and ideas in Erdnase - or any other magic book would be for the student to use them and find out "what works" for them.

That is why I found Richard's post about Charlie Miller very interesting.

Just my opinion.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 20th, 2008, 10:30 am

Nourdin wrote:you guyssssssssssssssssssssssssss
I just want more information about how to make my bottom deal more deceptive ...all I want to know is which bottom deal is best. I understand nobody wants to say exactly how. It wouldnt be magic! but at least tell me which direction I should think off. Mechanic? Erdnase?


Hi Nourdin, what specifically would you like to learn? And along that line what drew you to the erdnase text?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

User avatar
Nourdin
Posts: 32
Joined: May 17th, 2008, 2:57 pm

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Nourdin » May 20th, 2008, 10:46 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Hi Nourdin, what specifically would you like to learn? And along that line what drew you to the erdnase text?



Hi Jonathon.
I'm training every day 4 hours or more sleight of hands.
I'm on my way to advance to palming.

My biggest problem now is bottom dealing. I'm not sure which grip I should try to master.

In my head there ie the mechanic. But this one doesnt feel deceptive I believe. Either I'm doing something wrong or this grip just issn't the best there is
And for the erdnase grip, well... the book just doesnt help me out enough ( I believe )


After I could do the mechanic the best I could, I asked people what they noticed. After about 10 hands they would say they don't see the top card taken out. so the deception issn't good.
Perhaps I could use some information about that?

And for the Erdnase I'm totally at the beginning. I don't know what I want to know about that :/
Erdnase !

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 20th, 2008, 11:22 am

It takes years, sometimes decades, to learn to execute these types of moves flawlessly.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Nourdin
Posts: 32
Joined: May 17th, 2008, 2:57 pm

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Nourdin » May 20th, 2008, 11:31 am

I know. I understand. I am willing to learn ...
But.. which one? which one suits best for at the table?

I heard it doesnt really matter which grip it is. So should I just not go into the erdnase? just ignore it?

heard the grip was a tell anyways?
Erdnase !

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 20th, 2008, 12:08 pm

If I were in your shoes, and not so eager to get my left third finger trimmed, I'd ask around here specifically for suggestions on teachers and tutorials on that skill.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 20th, 2008, 5:28 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote:It may be unhelpful to some but in my opinion I think I do understand David's comment.


No, Glenn, you don't. David wrote:

David Alexander wrote:There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.


But I have posted several examples here where Erdnase provides several words, sentences and paragraphs on applying the moves to getting the money. That's a fact, Glenn, and any attempt to pretend Alexander was talking about magic performance rather than cheating is pure sophistry on your part.

I'm still interested in reading Alexander's views, rather than hearing your explanation of what he had in mind, since it's clear you haven't grasped the facts.

User avatar
Brian Morton
Posts: 398
Joined: March 12th, 2008, 11:43 am
Location: Bawlamer, Merlin
Contact:

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Brian Morton » May 20th, 2008, 9:27 pm

Nourdin,

Magic is more than one or two parts, but remember, in the end, it's a performance art. Which means the end goal is to entertain the audience ... with good technical ability. If you spend all your time on learning sleights out of Erdnase, you'll make what the kids call a great "move monkey" -- and never learn how to entertain an audience. The whole is more than the sum of its parts.

The good stuff will come when you're ready for it.

While you're learning the really hard stuff, there's nothing wrong with learning good stuff; like many others on this forum, I can't recommend Harry Lorayne's "Close-Up Card Magic" enough -- there's enough stuff in there to keep you for years in frying laypeople and learning how to entertain. It's one of the classics for a reason. (And by the way, no matter what you think of Simon Lovell as a "sidekick," the man is a pure entertainer.)

Just remember -- when it comes to magic, if you can't engage an audience, in the end, what you're doing is just practice. Because nobody will stick around long enough to watch you do a damned thing.

brian :cool:

Glenn Bishop
Posts: 650
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 10:52 am

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 20th, 2008, 10:54 pm

Cugel wrote:No, Glenn, you don't. David wrote:

David Alexander wrote:There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game.


But I have posted several examples here where Erdnase provides several words, sentences and paragraphs on applying the moves to getting the money. That's a fact, Glenn, and any attempt to pretend Alexander was talking about magic performance rather than cheating is pure sophistry on your part.

I'm still interested in reading Alexander's views, rather than hearing your explanation of what he had in mind, since it's clear you haven't grasped the facts.


Sorry but that is not the way I read it.

"There's not a word in Erdnase about application. You can learn the moves, but you'll have to find another source to know how to apply them to getting the money in a game."

Besides techniques Erdnase is full of theory - You can learn the moves and the techniques and the "theory" but you will have to find another source to know how to apply them in a real game.

Theory without "experience" in a card game as well as a magic performance is just Theory - and it is a nice hobby!

I think that it is a good opinion.

However I would guess that I am talking to a non-performing magician with little or no performing experience. In most cases that I have had with non performing magicians they don't seem to value the years of experience and the real world slant that most performing magicians have - gained from years and years of doing shows.

Just my opinion.

Bill Duncan
Posts: 1639
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 11:33 pm

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Bill Duncan » May 21st, 2008, 1:20 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:I agree with David if he is saying that the book of Erdnase doesn't teach application - it has application theory

Huh? That has to be the most obtuse statement I've ever read on this board. Cugel posted specific examples where SWE explains how and when to move, in a card game. If that's not application what is?

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 21st, 2008, 5:25 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:Besides techniques Erdnase is full of theory - You can learn the moves and the techniques and the "theory" but you will have to find another source to know how to apply them in a real game.

Theory without "experience" in a card game as well as a magic performance is just Theory - and it is a nice hobby!


Whether Erdnase gives any advice on application is a question of fact, not opinion. Examine the text - it's all there if you actually read it and comprehend its meaning.

Glenn Bishop wrote:However I would guess that I am talking to a non-performing magician with little or no performing experience.


That's your perennial problem demonstrated for all to see: you guess. You assume. You fail to read what is in front of you and leap to conclusions. You didn't properly read what David Alexander wrote and when I proved that Alexander was in error in the statement he made, you assumed he was talking about an entirely different subject.

Regarding this specific assumption you make regarding my performing experience; you would be wrong. But even if I was an inexperienced or poor performer, that would be irrelevant to this discussion because I have at no time concerned myself in this thread with the subject of performing magic. Go back and read it again, Glenn. I was discussing Alexander's comments about Erdnase in regard to card cheating.

Glenn Bishop wrote:In most cases that I have had with non performing magicians they don't seem to value the years of experience and the real world slant that most performing magicians have - gained from years and years of doing shows.


And again, that observation is irrelevant to the discussion I'm having. I don't care what your opinion of me is as a performer. Your opinion is a gross assumption and actually your opinion has no value to me because I don't have to make assumptions about YOU as a performer, since I've seen you perform.

So, David Alexander; what were you referring to? Your choice of words seemed unambiguous to me and others, but perhaps I'm missing some subtle nuance. I'm a keen amateur scholar of Erdnase (while being a professional magician, Bishop) so would be keen to read David's interpretation of the text.

Cugel

User avatar
Darren Lawbuary
Posts: 160
Joined: February 29th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Darren Lawbuary » May 21st, 2008, 8:24 am

Hi Nourdin.

Please look at Brian Morton's reply to your question on the previous page.

This is THE answer you required from the start.

I wish you well in your new journey through our beloved, joyous magical art. Be prepared to be frustrated when moves don't 'happen' overnight. Revel in that amazing feeling of wonder at the end of your 1st public performance.

Read all the classic texts you are able to obtain. These are classic, and have stood the tests of time, for a reason. Enrich yourself with the history of our fore-fathers, for we all stand on the shoulders of giants.

Most of all, ENJOY.

With respect,

Darren
U.K
Remember, laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, then it's Ventolin.

Glenn Bishop
Posts: 650
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 10:52 am

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 21st, 2008, 9:39 am

Bill Duncan wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:I agree with David if he is saying that the book of Erdnase doesn't teach application - it has application theory

Huh? That has to be the most obtuse statement I've ever read on this board. Cugel posted specific examples where SWE explains how and when to move, in a card game. If that's not application what is?

Erdnase gives theory of how to use it in a card game in 1902. Thats the illusion that I was talking about. Don't be surprised if many of his techniques and the theory of how to use those techniques - well I just don't think that they would work in a card game today.

If one were to cheat at a card table - Their are a lot of more practical ways today than the Erdnase system.

Just my opinion.

T Baxter
Posts: 149
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Canada

Re: who is wesley james

Postby T Baxter » May 21st, 2008, 11:34 am

I understand what both David Alexander and Glenn Bishop are saying, and the perspective from which both have addressed the issue of "application".

Erdnase himself says that his book "will not transform the pastime player into a professional".

The applications stated in the book are technical or procedural, and in that sense are theoretical until put into use. The applications of which Messrs. Alexander and Bishop speak are the real world applications of how to work under pressure, when and how the moves might be applied to maximize the moment and the outcome, etc., when the heat is on.

Such applications are not taught in the book.

In my experience, Alexander and Bishop both know their subjects pretty well, and don't make arbitrary comments. They speak about the things within their knowledge and experience.

The differences here seem to be one of perspective. Sometimes it is impossible to make someone else see what we see, which is why, in this instance, David seems to be wisely avoiding such an attempt.

- T. Baxter

Sebastien L.
Posts: 114
Joined: March 30th, 2008, 5:36 pm
Location: Canada

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Sebastien L. » May 21st, 2008, 2:41 pm

Cugel wrote:Whether Erdnase gives any advice on application is a question of fact, not opinion. Examine the text - it's all there if you actually read it and comprehend its meaning.


For one, the fact that you see something there doesn't mean it's actually there, follow what I'm saying? People have found secret messages and prophecies in the Bible, doesn't mean they were there to start with.

Second, you seem to misunderstand what "getting the money" means. It has to do with much more than just card technique. None of the quoted sections you provided speak about it. Sure, they speak of the technical points, and even in some cases of possible shade. But getting the money? No, not really. For example:

"After a blind shuffle, with the desired cards on the bottom, the dealer palms in the left and passes the deck with the right to be cut. After the cut he picks up the deck with the right hand and replaces the palmed cards, when squaring up for the deal."


In what game would you use this? At what time (both relative to the table situation and the actual time of day)? What advantage do you expect from it? When is it best used, when is it no help? All the quote addresses above is the way to do the technique, but nothing in there tells you when to actually use the move, and how to get the money with it.

Or:

The dealer holds the location of the cut until the hands are dealt. Then the desired cards can be dealt from the bottom during the next deal. This moment, after the first deal, is the most favorable, as the players are occupied with their hands, the cut has been made quite regularly, the deal finished and consequently there is less cause for close scrutiny. But principally... [continues at length]..."


Again, what game are you playing? Why this and not another technique? What cards are you holding out and why?

How do you build the money? How do you cool someone off? How do you get in, how do you get out? How do you find the party to start with, or start one if there's none? Erdnase didn't address this, unless I'm mistaken.

Knowing 10 different bottom deals and being able to perform them flawlessly doesn't get you the money, there is much more to it than that. As such, while EATCT is a great work, it does not teach you how to get the money.

Just the opinion of someone who's neither a gentleman nor a scholar, take it or leave it I guess.

Nourdin, if you want DVDs of Erdnase moves, stick around and buy the Allan Ackerman DVDs once they are out, should be any time now.

EDIT: On review, Mr. Baxter seems to have worded it more succinctly than I.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 21st, 2008, 4:55 pm

Sebastien wrote:
Cugel wrote:Whether Erdnase gives any advice on application is a question of fact, not opinion. Examine the text - it's all there if you actually read it and comprehend its meaning.


For one, the fact that you see something there doesn't mean it's actually there, follow what I'm saying? People have found secret messages and prophecies in the Bible, doesn't mean they were there to start with.

Second, you seem to misunderstand what "getting the money" means. It has to do with much more than just card technique. None of the quoted sections you provided speak about it. Sure, they speak of the technical points, and even in some cases of possible shade. But getting the money? No, not really. For example:

"After a blind shuffle, with the desired cards on the bottom, the dealer palms in the left and passes the deck with the right to be cut. After the cut he picks up the deck with the right hand and replaces the palmed cards, when squaring up for the deal."


In what game would you use this? At what time (both relative to the table situation and the actual time of day)? What advantage do you expect from it? When is it best used, when is it no help? All the quote addresses above is the way to do the technique, but nothing in there tells you when to actually use the move, and how to get the money with it.

Or:

The dealer holds the location of the cut until the hands are dealt. Then the desired cards can be dealt from the bottom during the next deal. This moment, after the first deal, is the most favorable, as the players are occupied with their hands, the cut has been made quite regularly, the deal finished and consequently there is less cause for close scrutiny. But principally... [continues at length]..."


Again, what game are you playing? Why this and not another technique? What cards are you holding out and why?

How do you build the money? How do you cool someone off? How do you get in, how do you get out? How do you find the party to start with, or start one if there's none? Erdnase didn't address this, unless I'm mistaken.


The level of detail provided by Erdnase is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he discussed application. The fact is, as I have shown, he did discuss application. Whether or not you believe Erdnase's advice will allow you to succeed is a question over which reasonable men may argue but it is not the discussion we were having. Again: Alexander says Erdnase doesn't discuss how to apply the moves, but the fact is he did discuss that aspect.

If it wasn't so frustrating, the inability of people to stick with and address the issue raised might be amusing.

As to which game his applications are useful for: read the book in its historical context. If it is not clear or obvious to you, the reader, then perhaps it's a question that has no relevance to you as a magician.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 21st, 2008, 4:58 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote:Erdnase gives theory of how to use it in a card game in 1902. Thats the illusion that I was talking about. Don't be surprised if many of his techniques and the theory of how to use those techniques - well I just don't think that they would work in a card game today.

If one were to cheat at a card table - Their are a lot of more practical ways today than the Erdnase system.

Just my opinion.


The level of detail provided by Erdnase and whether it applies to today's conditions is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he discussed application. The fact is, as I have shown, he did discuss application. Whether or not you believe Erdnase's advice will allow you to succeed now or in the past is a question over which reasonable men may argue but it is not the discussion we were having. Again: Alexander says Erdnase doesn't discuss how to apply the moves, but the fact is he did discuss that aspect.

If it wasn't so frustrating, the inability of people to stick with and address the issue raised might be amusing.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 21st, 2008, 5:14 pm

Entity wrote:I understand what both David Alexander and Glenn Bishop are saying, and the perspective from which both have addressed the issue of "application".

Erdnase himself says that his book "will not transform the pastime player into a professional".


That assumes all readers are are pastime players rather than professionals.

The applications stated in the book are technical or procedural, and in that sense are theoretical until put into use. The applications of which Messrs. Alexander and Bishop speak are the real world applications of how to work under pressure,


So Erdnase doesn't teach you courage? Is that what Alexander is saying?

when and how the moves might be applied to maximize the moment and the outcome


He does actually, see the quoted passages. Whether or not the descriptions are adequate enough for you to make use of them is a matter of debate - but it is certainly the case that Erdnase gives examples of application. No amount of sophistry can refute that fact.

etc., when the heat is on.


Yes, perhaps. But that is on the level of specificity. Alexander made a generalization and it was wrong.

In my experience, Alexander and Bishop both know their subjects pretty well, and don't make arbitrary comments. They speak about the things within their knowledge and experience.


Yes, perhaps that is your experience. But in this instance the assertion that Erdnase does not discuss application is patently false and has been proven to be so. The merits of Erdnase's advice are open to debate - but Alexander did not begin from that argument. He flatly stated there was no advice on application. Prove I'm wrong.

The differences here seem to be one of perspective. Sometimes it is impossible to make someone else see what we see, which is why, in this instance, David seems to be wisely avoiding such an attempt.


So the unsubtle inference here is that I'm not equipped to see what David Alexander sees? That's pretty lame, Tom, considering I have shown here that the statement "Erdnase doesn't teach application" is false. Instead of avoiding the issue with such preposterous extrapolations, how about sticking with the facts. The fact is we have a text here and what is printed in the text is black and white. He either says something or he doesn't and if you don't like what he says, debate its merits - but don't fabricate meaning based on some weak appeal to authority.

"Wisely avoiding" ...Indeed.

I don't think I'm going to get an honest discussion here, so I'll bow out unless some miracle occurs.

Glenn Bishop
Posts: 650
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 10:52 am

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 21st, 2008, 5:25 pm

Thank you for posting Sebastien and Entity - I agree and may I add that they were a pleasure to read.

Just my opinion.

Sebastien L.
Posts: 114
Joined: March 30th, 2008, 5:36 pm
Location: Canada

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Sebastien L. » May 21st, 2008, 5:27 pm

Cugel wrote:The fact is, as I have shown, he did discuss application.


Well, keep saying it loud enough and often enough...

Simply put, discussing application of cheating moves without consideration of how to get the money is completely missing the point and in fact not discussing application at all. One does not simply follow the other.

I could argue my point further but I'll take a page from your book instead, it's so much easier:

You state that Erdnase discuss the application of moves to get the money in real games, but the fact is, as I have shown, he did not discuss getting the money in any way.

If it wasn't so frustrating, your inability to differentiate the execution of a bottom palm and replacement during a game from getting the money from that same game might be amusing.


Entity wrote:Sometimes it is impossible to make someone else see what we see, which is why, in this instance, David seems to be wisely avoiding such an attempt.


Probably the wisest thing to do in this case, and the best advice in thread.

Save for passing by Mr. James' set and waiting for Ackerman's instead, which I think is just as good, and probably more germane to the original topic.

T Baxter
Posts: 149
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Canada

Re: who is wesley james

Postby T Baxter » May 21st, 2008, 5:50 pm

Cugel: When I said that sometimes it's impossible to make someone else see what we see, I meant that from your point of view as well as David's or Glenn's.

- entity

Bill Duncan
Posts: 1639
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 11:33 pm

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Bill Duncan » May 22nd, 2008, 1:07 am

Interesting discussion here

nothing in there tells you when to actually use the move, and how to get the money with it.

We have people throwing around the phrase get the money as if it had specific meaning, when in fact the phrase means what the writer chooses it to mean. What gets the money for one cheat may or may not get the money for another. Or so Im told.

There is no equivoque with the word application. It means what it means and Cugel has shown that SWE did in fact offer at least some application of his methods as in when he describes how to hold out as the pack is passed for cutting.

The applications stated in the book are technical or procedural, and in that sense are theoretical until put into use.

Of course. Its a book. Theory is the concept which explains the thing. You have to put theory in a book because you cant put the thing in a book.

What we seem to be hearing in the statements that SWE doesnt teach us how to get the money is that he doesnt teach the theory behind how and when to move.

If I tell you to hold out while the pack is cut, and to put the held out cards on the bottom when you square up after the cut that is very clearly how and when to apply the palm and how to prepare to apply the bottom deal. If I tell you why you should do it in that way, and at that exact moment, that is theory.

Which is NOT what the author does

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 22nd, 2008, 4:43 am

Sebastien wrote:
Cugel wrote:The fact is, as I have shown, he did discuss application.


Well, keep saying it loud enough and often enough...

Simply put, discussing application of cheating moves without consideration of how to get the money is completely missing the point and in fact not discussing application at all. One does not simply follow the other.


I'm not debating the merits of what Erdnase wrote. The fact is, he gives the moves and then gives some examples of when to use them in the context of a game. In other words, he gives you the application. Your comment that I've quoted above suggests that you haven't read the book - or that you don't actually comprehend the distinction.

If someone tells you how to palm off the top, that's a technique.

If someone tells you to palm the cards and add them to your hand as soon as the deal ends, that's application.

The fact that you might not get what every serious card player in the world will get (that the application described is a good time to do it because everyone is focussed on what they were dealt) is not the fault of the author.

I am discussing the facts. You are discussing the merits. I am being objective. You are being subjective.

I could argue my point further but I'll take a page from your book instead, it's so much easier:

You state that Erdnase discuss the application of moves to get the money in real games, but the fact is, as I have shown, he did not discuss getting the money in any way.

If it wasn't so frustrating, your inability to differentiate the execution of a bottom palm and replacement during a game from getting the money from that same game might be amusing.


Well I guess that was a last resort. Fail to prove your argument so you resort to being an ignoramus. Well done.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 22nd, 2008, 4:48 am

Entity wrote:Cugel: When I said that sometimes it's impossible to make someone else see what we see, I meant that from your point of view as well as David's or Glenn's.

- entity


My apologies. I am sure you can appreciate the frustration I'm experiencing when I show beyond any question of a doubt that Erdnase did discuss application and I still have people who deny that fact, accuse me of being a poor magician (how is this relevant?) and other obtuse, arrogant or ignorant behavior.

This tangent reminds me of a passage in Boswell's biography of Samuel Johnson:

After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."

Sebastien L.
Posts: 114
Joined: March 30th, 2008, 5:36 pm
Location: Canada

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Sebastien L. » May 22nd, 2008, 5:57 am

Cugel wrote:Well I guess that was a last resort. Fail to prove your argument so you resort to being an ignoramus. Well done.


That's exactly what I was thinking when I parroted your arguments back to you. Funny how when you say it it proves everything beyond a shadow of a doubt and should close any discussion, but when I do I'm an ignoramus. Fantastic.

I understand your argument, and how you miss the point. Since you are so bloody determined to plod on without trying to get it, to the extent where if you were to stumble over the actual point you would promptly pick yourself up and march on without so much as a look-see, I will do you a favor and speak no more.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 22nd, 2008, 5:59 am

Sebastien wrote:
Cugel wrote:Well I guess that was a last resort. Fail to prove your argument so you resort to being an ignoramus. Well done.


That's exactly what I was thinking when I parroted your arguments back to you. Funny how when you say it it proves everything beyond a shadow of a doubt and should close any discussion, but when I do I'm an ignoramus. Fantastic.

I understand your argument, and how you miss the point. Since you are so bloody determined to plod on without trying to get it, to the extent where if you were to stumble over the actual point you would promptly pick yourself up and march on without so much as a look-see, I will do you a favor and speak no more.


If I was as creative with the truth and as obtuse then I'd be an ignoramus too. As it stands, that territory appears to be comprehensively occupied by you.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 22nd, 2008, 7:39 am

Is this about dealing from the bottom of the dreck and mucking?

Not sure how to interpret this plethora of sage advice on the false deal - anyone got the key for the roman-a-clef posts above?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

User avatar
Nourdin
Posts: 32
Joined: May 17th, 2008, 2:57 pm

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Nourdin » May 23rd, 2008, 7:15 pm

I am reading the book for a reason. I notice that everything I read I can use. When you master all the segments of the book you can basically take a HUGE advantage at almost every moment.

its not the best solution compared to newer and more technical solutions, but it is the most skillfull one and therefore most thrill giving one.

If for one moment I would believe I couldnt use Erdnase into practical handlings, then I would not fancy it as much as it does right now.

Hope to gain much skill in nearby future.
Thank you all for giving such great replies and energy ( although a big part was experienced by me as a 'catfight' between some of you guys :p )

Nourdin
Erdnase !

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 25th, 2008, 12:59 am

Nourdin wrote:Thank you all for giving such great replies and energy


You're most welcome!

( although a big part was experienced by me as a 'catfight' between some of you guys :p )

Nourdin


Hey, don't be too hard on Glenn Bishop. When he finally gets around to reading some books he'll be a formidable contributor to these forums.

erlandish
Posts: 58
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 7:18 pm

Re: who is wesley james

Postby erlandish » May 25th, 2008, 1:54 am

I agree with Cugel on the application thing, although it feels weird using the word agree when we're talking about something factual rather than opinion-based. It seems pretty straightforward. If I say that the side steal can be used in an ACR phase, that's stating an application. It's not sexy and there's not a lot of hand-holding to guide them through the whole thing, but it's an application nonetheless.

Given that, I don't think there can be any question that applications aren't given in Erdnase. He doesn't script you out a three act play about how it's going to go down, but enough information is there to get the person to the point where the best further education is to "learn by doing", in my opinion.

As for Erdnase containing "application theory"... priceless.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 25th, 2008, 3:11 am

Right. Erdnase doesn't hold your hand but instead writes for an audience he assumes plays cards for money and therefore doesn't need to have the objectives and the nuances of context explained to them. I am guessing he assumed anyone who was going to put his material into practice didn't need advice on growing a set of balls. He sure wasn't writing for an audience of hobbyist magicians, and perhaps that's what is creating the cognitive dissonance for some in this thread.

Glenn Bishop
Posts: 650
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 10:52 am

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 25th, 2008, 6:28 pm

Cugel wrote:Right. Erdnase doesn't hold your hand but instead writes for an audience he assumes plays cards for money and therefore doesn't need to have the objectives and the nuances of context explained to them.


That is an interesting opinion and may I add a few more opinions about the Erdnase text. I don't think that there is anyone alive today that can say who Erdnase really was. Some people think that he was a magician (like me). Some think that he was a card sharp. Some think he was a gambler.

We have a few stories and opinions from people that have tried to track down who Erdnase was. And the Erdnase text to go by.

Now having said that - in reading Erdnase I wouldn't assume that he would think that the reader would play cards or do magic at all.

The book is very interesting because it was written in almost a biography style - and that is one of the illusions in the book. It seems that he "used" what was written in the book. There is almost an autobiography - personal spirit in the way that Erdnase writes the copy.

However as I have written many times - I don't think that the book is a practical system to cheat at cards - today! And I don't think that it has practical card cheating in 1902. Erdnase left out spreading - cold decking and a lot of other stuff.

His 12 card stock for cheating at the card table in my opinion is not a practical way to run up several hands. In my opinion it would not be practical in 1902 when the book was published - and it would not be practical today.

Sure it is great for a demonstration in card cheating for an audience and I used the ideas for my Gem poker deal. But at the card table it just would not be a practical way to cheat in my opinion.

Also his three card monte - the way it is written - the copy - it would make a great demonstration for entertainment but there is a lot more to it if it was used as a street con when the con men do it in the streets.

Erdnase is a great book for magic and magicians and that is just my opinion. If others want to think that it is a book on card cheating - that is fine with me. But I would not recommend using any of the material - especially the stocking and culling methods using the in-jog and out jog system at the card table.

Just my opinion.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 441
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Overworld

Re: who is wesley james

Postby Cugel » May 26th, 2008, 4:42 am

Okay. Thanks, Glenn.


Return to “General”