One exposure site feels the pain...

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
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mrgoat
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 18th, 2008, 5:02 am

JustinRYoung wrote:Goat,

I very much see where you are coming from, the challenge of stemming downloads is a complicated one. Sure, the wholesale persecution conducted by the RIAA and MPAA has not been effective. At the same time, seeding bad or fake copies of the files and authorizing an easy legal resource like iTunes has made downloading legally the viable, easy option.

Even there, there is a long way to go.

The key thing is: we are all on the same side of this issue. We want magic to thrive online. I know running iTricks.com I would love to co-opt some of the misspent passion of these kids. I would love for them to run blogs or review their favorite tricks. If we were all banned from discussing the piracy issue, imagine what their different perspective could bring to a magic debate?

We aren't going to solve piracy until we solve the cultural rift between these kids and those who know the truth, as Bob Farmer accurately said ANY COPY stolen off the internet taking away from a very thin profit margin of your average creator.

As that happens, the law should be enforced. Although if we kept the names of the sites on the down low, that wouldn't hurt anyone either...


Oh thank you. I felt like I was banging my head against a wall here!

You probably explained my point more clearly that I managed to.

With the music and film industry, they have proved what they did was wrong. And I think a lot could be fixed with that with the price point. iTunes has revolutionised the music industry - no doubt. If it was just a LITTLE bit cheaper it would stop theft altogeether I think. John C Dvorak proposes 10 cents a song would halt piracy overnight. It's so cheap, why steal it?

Clearly they have much larger numbers than the magic world to play with. But it's an interesting thought. Would a magic DVD sell sufficiently MORE copies if it was priced at $10 rather than $30 to make up the shortfall in revenue? Do "we" price ourselves out of the market and DRIVE people to piracy, or, are there always going to be pirates?

The music and film industry fought against Apple for ages. They had to push and push for digital downloads and it's worked. It certainly wasn't easy. But they made a device (iPod) and a 'store' (iTunes) that makes it SO easy to legally buy content, that it worked.

What could the magic community learn from this? Remember, at the start, everyone laughed at Steve Jobs for even trying this.

What could the magic community learn from Radiohead, who released their album for 'free' with an honesty box that allowed people to pay what they thought was fair? What could we learn from Trent Reznor, who released 1/4 of his new album free via bit torrent? (He also released the 'master' tracks so people could do remixes and mashups with his blessing). Both massive financial successes netting the artists much more than they would have earned from a traditional release?

Could there be a magic release that was 'free' to all, but with limited edition physical sets with extra physical 'things'. Say it was a trick that would be miles better if you had a set of hand made gaffed cards. It would work without them, but be MUCH better with them. You can download the whole routine for free, but then you could buy an editiion with the gaffed cards also? But only 500 were going to be made...

I am not saying piracy is good. I am not in favour of it. I am saying we need to do something else, something as revolutionary as iTunes if we want to stem the bleeding.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Keith Raygor » April 18th, 2008, 8:40 am

mrgoat wrote:No, as I have now repeated at least half a dozen times, my point is if you ADVERTISE the prosecution of these thieves it drives more thieves to steal because it educates them as to where they can steal from. This is irrefutable and I have provided several links with evidence that proves this.


I wouldn't say irrefutable but you do point to some online evidence that supports your view.

Several years ago, when the RIAA began its campaign to prosecute even the smaller, single-person cases, including minors, it got my kid's attention, and aside from the education I provided about artistic creation, ownership and responsibility, the stories of prosecution were largely responsible for changing the habits of my teens. This is irrefutable (from my view). I am certain my kids knew where to get free files, and I am certain I'm not the only parent to speak up and teach.

What your evidence doesn't demonstrate is the number of people that did NOT go to those sites after publicizing the cases because of the possibility they would be prosecuted, or because they just received a reminder that it was wrong. It could very well be that those numbers outweigh the numbers your links point to. I'd like to think they do because I believe in the ability that most of us have to discern the difference between right and wrong and then act on it. But reminders of consequences to wrong decisions almost always serve their purposes, and have taught many of us many lessons. I see Tim and Dave's posts as convincing statements that not only is there a problem (as you point out), but that their approach will create a positive outcome for the creators. Sweeping? No, but constructive? Yes.
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 18th, 2008, 8:55 am

Darn printing press - things have only gotten worse since Alexander's teacher started putting teachings onto scrolls instead of keeping things between master and pupils.

The notion of changing our notion of product from 'secret' to something tangible and special seems promising even if it implies a certain reductions in our current mass market.
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Keith Raygor » April 18th, 2008, 10:06 am

Jon Racherbaumer has some very interesting thoughts and quotes on this matter in his May 2008 Genii column. It sounds like the books he recommends explores and expands on mrgoat's viewpoint.

The protectors of Intellectual Property face new challenges every day. And they carve out the details of new technology on a case by case basis, but the basic tenets remain the same. I think it also remains to be seen if the business model is changed by the unethical behavior of today's youngsters, or if they just get older and wiser. I have more faith in older and wiser, having lived through the 70s and exercising much more daring examples of behavior than the copying of files.

In other words, I think the kids will come around to the system quicker and more-so than the system will come around to the kids, regardless of how loudly they scream for more of what isn't theirs.
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Bob Farmer » April 18th, 2008, 10:28 am

Mr. Goat has now quoted John C Dvorak. I'm not sure, but several hundred years ago when I used to read computer magazines, I think he was a sort of wirehead columnist who explained every month what was wrong with the computer business and how to fix it (though, as far as I know, he's still just a columnist, not a billionaire computer entrepreneur). So now he's explaining how the music business should work. I eagerly await his next (free) album.

Mr. Goat -- you continually ignore the size of the magic market in your analysis. Sure, Apple blew the old music business model out of the water by making downloads easy and cheap and the hardware simple and effective. But that model only works if there is a market for tens of millions of downloads.

Ask anybody who sells magic tricks: if you sell 5,000, it's a major, major hit. A hard-backed book that sells 1,500 units is fantastic.

You might consider the Long Tail theory -- it's more applicable to magic than the Apple model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Tail

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 18th, 2008, 10:36 am

Keith Raygor wrote:...In other words, I think the kids will come around to the system quicker and more-so than the system will come around to the kids, regardless of how loudly they scream for more of what isn't theirs.


Agreed... only the "wiser" here need to have the basics of internet tools explained or be informed that any data offered in public becomes trivia for sharing - as the "kids" appear to take such things as implicit.

If we took intellectual and artistic property rights seriously we might not get to play with any item offered and might also have to reconsider associating with those who have offered what was not theirs to offer in the first place... right? Oops, sorry about that chop cup, zombie, latest rehash of Vernon or Elmsley's work which includes a sufficient explanation to reconstruct the original... or better yet books written for lay audiences by lawyers who sat in performances and reconstructed the works of DeKolta... it gets "complicated" if we want to feel good about what we have.

The notions underlying this topic are IMHO better for a discussion for parents and children - and without mentorship we just get mired in excuses, rationalization and the pressures of a free market to offer product and to use such products to serve short term self interest.

Getting into JonR's column: Sure crowdsourcing is useful - and has wonderful applications. Check out the latest rush of similarly themed tricks like self levitation and coin-in-bottle for some outputs of that process. So - beyond the glamour of nostalgia, what else is there for sale?

Bright red paper to discourage copying... that reminds me of something... but instead I'd like to consider Don England's book on red paper. IMHO it was a noble experiment and I was happy to spend some extra money to have the cards made in Tally-ho backs so I could use them. Thanks Don and all involved in that product. It was special.
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 18th, 2008, 10:44 am

Bob, in your opinion is volume the greatest driver in our market or wouuld "it's the latest thing you need to buy so you don't have to get fooled and feel stupid at the next meeting" be closer to the list of top market drivers?
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 18th, 2008, 11:03 am

Keith Raygor wrote:Jon Racherbaumer has some very interesting thoughts and quotes on this matter in his May 2008 Genii column. It sounds like the books he recommends explores and expands on mrgoat's viewpoint.


Probably does so more eloquently than I do, too.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Sue Anne Webster » April 18th, 2008, 11:08 am

One theory put forward is to reduce the price of magic DVDs so "it's so cheap, why steal it?"

On the forum of this site James Clark stopped from sharing downloads, one member created a thread asking "Why do you download videos?"

Here are some of the replies:


* - "I will be honest that I do download videos, but the primary purpose is to check them out before I buy them. I have downloaded and checked out quite a few videos that just truly are not worth buying. I see too many effects that have flooded the magic market that are not even worth the cost of a blank disc because of poor quality, bad effect, or almost a rip off of another, better, effect. If, however, the effect is worth it and produced in good quality, I will actually buy it and support the magician who made it. Those others can just disappear and not make any more videos until they make something worth buying."

* - "Hey, that is what I do, if I see a video or effect that I like I buy it even when I have the explanations etc. Holy Moly, Masuda's tricks, Born To Perform Card Magic etc. It is good to support to the creator. When you buy the trick from the creator, you are kind of paying the rights to perform the creator's stuff, you support him, you get the actual gimmicks if there are any, you also learn the effect correctly. But in my opinion you don't have to BUY every single effect from one creator. Most stuff I download - I probably bought from that company before, so I supported them and nothing wrong with getting a free trick as long as you paid the compay by buying one of their effects."

* - "Sometimes My reason to dl videos is for try before buym but other times i do it because i'm just curious"

* - "I just can't see where downloading videos is costing the makers the baskets of money they say it is. The folks downloading the video with no intention of buying it were never going to buy it to begin with, and those that do buy are buying because they liked and want to use the effect, not because they got sucked into some hype."

* - "Ok, I'm from Europe and the DVDs here are quite expensive. There are few online shops where I can buy for example some Ellusionist stuff and the prices are really high. Plus the range of the products isn't really wide.
I'm trying to be creative when it comes to magic so I like to know the secrets and try to evolve the ideas, create something new etc. I hate exposure, I never exposed stuff to laymen people, everything I downloaded is for my eyes only.
Plus of course I like to see the performances, so that's basically it."

* - "the reason that download video is i want to learn and add to my collection. why? because in Vietnam, those price is very very expensive for me to buy. i am a barman, i can not afford it. even though i can save enough money to buy, but another reason that selling/buying online, Vietnam is banned from most site because of bad reputation of cheating credit card."

* - "I download for the same reasons everyone else does, I want to learn how great things are done, first I try and guess though, which makes it fun. You'll surprise yourself how close you come each time to getting the actual method down. It actually helps you figure out more effects each time if you think about it!"

* - "Honestly I just don't have the money. I will invest in EXTREMELY high quality products though, Like Wayne Houchin's Control, or Aaron Fisher's The Paper Engine, and David Stone's Real Secrets of Magic volumes. They have to be really amazing products though."

* - "I download.......cuz I`m a PIRATE !!!!!!!!!!!!"

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 18th, 2008, 11:12 am

Okay let's get to the roots of their position(s) does this read about right for the factors so far expressed?

1) not want to buy stuff that can't use ( usually written as "crap/junk/fluff...")
2) want to save money
3) feel buying a few is good enough to excuse downloading lots
4) causual indifference to any sort of pay-for-value situation.

Did you see others?
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 18th, 2008, 11:17 am

Bob Farmer wrote:Mr. Goat has now quoted John C Dvorak. I'm not sure, but several hundred years ago when I used to read computer magazines, I think he was a sort of wirehead columnist who explained every month what was wrong with the computer business and how to fix it (though, as far as I know, he's still just a columnist, not a billionaire computer entrepreneur). So now he's explaining how the music business should work. I eagerly await his next (free) album.


That's the self-same chap. Famous for being devil's advodate and winding up mac users. Although I doubt he is a millionaire, he has a very successful blog, hosts two or three video podcasts and still does the columns. I like him. He has a show called Cranky Geeks which I enjoy. He puts out theories and challenges preconceptions. Often deliberately controversially, but I like that.

Obviously what is going on now isn't working, so rather than litigate he proposes trying new solutions. I agree with this idea.

Bob Farmer wrote:Mr. Goat -- you continually ignore the size of the magic market in your analysis. Sure, Apple blew the old music business model out of the water by making downloads easy and cheap and the hardware simple and effective. But that model only works if there is a market for tens of millions of downloads.


I specifically addressed the size difference in two of my posts. But what if you could do something with the download market? Maybe what I suggested was a rubbish idea, but we need to keep trying to think of SOMETHING new?

Bob Farmer wrote:Ask anybody who sells magic tricks: if you sell 5,000, it's a major, major hit. A hard-backed book that sells 1,500 units is fantastic.


Absolutely. So if you gave away 50,000 downloads for free, and sold 5,000 for a certain price, and then 500 limited edition with an certain something, then 50 with a certain other price, and 5 even more expensive with - say - personal tuition or something?

I am just trying to stimulate discussion based on someone that has had success. He sold out in 3 days and made 750k USD in that time. Not bad eh?


Bob Farmer wrote:You might consider the Long Tail theory -- it's more applicable to magic than the Apple model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Tail



I work in marketing and am aware of this theory. Not sure how it applies here? As I understand it, it's basically that Amazon will make more revenue from a collection of low selling items than individual items like The Da Vinci Code. Makes perfect sense. Online sales and distribution has allowed this to happen.

Maybe I am missing your point?

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 18th, 2008, 11:29 am

Keith Raygor wrote:
mrgoat wrote:No, as I have now repeated at least half a dozen times, my point is if you ADVERTISE the prosecution of these thieves it drives more thieves to steal because it educates them as to where they can steal from. This is irrefutable and I have provided several links with evidence that proves this.


I wouldn't say irrefutable but you do point to some online evidence that supports your view.

Several years ago, when the RIAA began its campaign to prosecute even the smaller, single-person cases, including minors, it got my kid's attention, and aside from the education I provided about artistic creation, ownership and responsibility, the stories of prosecution were largely responsible for changing the habits of my teens. This is irrefutable (from my view). I am certain my kids knew where to get free files, and I am certain I'm not the only parent to speak up and teach.

What your evidence doesn't demonstrate is the number of people that did NOT go to those sites after publicizing the cases because of the possibility they would be prosecuted, or because they just received a reminder that it was wrong. It could very well be that those numbers outweigh the numbers your links point to. I'd like to think they do because I believe in the ability that most of us have to discern the difference between right and wrong and then act on it. But reminders of consequences to wrong decisions almost always serve their purposes, and have taught many of us many lessons. I see Tim and Dave's posts as convincing statements that not only is there a problem (as you point out), but that their approach will create a positive outcome for the creators. Sweeping? No, but constructive? Yes.


You are right, it isn't irrefutable.

But no, I cannot demonstrate how many people didn't go to the sites. It is impossible to prove a negative, isn't it? However, you can see a definite increase in traffic levels after the large publicity getting busts. That's good enough evidence for me.

I am glad it gave you to change to educate your kids and now they will respect IP. That's great.

That doesn't make me think more harm than good comes of the large public prosecutions though.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Brad Henderson » April 18th, 2008, 2:23 pm

Mr Goat, you ask for proof, but offer none other than your own assertions. Please cease with the double standard. Unless you are calling me a liar. Then man up and say it.

I have had contact with many people in the University community here. Their attitudes and behaviors - by their admission - have changed as a result of these lawsuits.

Are you calling them liars?

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Dave V » April 18th, 2008, 5:22 pm

Wasn't there a video release some years ago that was a companion to a printed book? The instructions were written and only the moves with no reference other than "Chapter 1" was included.

Gary Oulette perhaps?
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Sue Anne Webster » April 18th, 2008, 8:14 pm

That's a very practical idea Dave.

We need more solutions like this.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 18th, 2008, 9:23 pm

That's what a "companion DVD" is supposed to be: not fully teaching any of the routines, not something that could or should be sold separately, but demonstrating them, and the moves, so you can see what it is that you are supposed to be learning.
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Chris Aguilar » April 18th, 2008, 11:54 pm

There's nothing to keep pirates from ripping a "companion dvd" and including it in a download with a scan of the book.

So no, not really "practical".

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby erlandish » April 19th, 2008, 12:00 am

A couple of recent books have done this. Tyler Wilson's Dominatricks and John Born's Matrix God's Way. I think it's the best solution, since it forces the downloader to read. Given the choice between books with demo videos and full-fledged teaching DVDs, I think the majority will opt for the DVDs.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Sue Anne Webster » April 19th, 2008, 2:53 am

I agree Chris, it may not be the "best" solution, but it's the best so far.

To be honest, the whole situation has really made me rethink releasing anything in the near future, DVDs or tricks.

We spent over 3 months and $10,000 producing our 3 DVDs and it took about a year to break even. The sad thing is that there are probably more pirated copies of them than genuine copies out there.

When people download or burn another creator's DVD they are saying "we have no respect for this person" because they don't feel that person's efforts are worth any financial renumeration.

As this discussion has shown, there are a lot of people out there who feel that either:

If a DVD isn't good enough quality, they should get it for free.

If a DVD is on the market, they should get it for free.


As a result, creators will have to find ways to thwart the pirates (like book & DVD combos... or something better) or they might as well just stop creating because they'll end up just giving it all away free whether they like it or not.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 19th, 2008, 10:19 am

Brad Henderson wrote:Mr Goat, you ask for proof, but offer none other than your own assertions. Please cease with the double standard. Unless you are calling me a liar. Then man up and say it.

I have had contact with many people in the University community here. Their attitudes and behaviors - by their admission - have changed as a result of these lawsuits.

Are you calling them liars?





I have (3 or 4 times) linked to evidence that proves my point.

You have offered some 3rd party story.

Why on earth would you expect me to take that as fact?

This far from means I am calling you a liar, it means I want some actual evidence before agreeing with you. Do you see the difference?

a) I offer evidence of increased traffic to file sharing sites
b) You offer a story of some friends of yours in university 'saying' they don't go to file trading sites anymore

Please don't get aggressive toward me because there is no evidence to back up your point of view. That's hardly my fault, is it?

To put it in black and white, I am not calling you a liar, nor am I suddenly agreeing with your point of view that advertising these prosecutions is good. I asked you whether you thought I should believe ANYTHING ANYONE says because a friend of theirs told them it was true.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 19th, 2008, 10:23 am

Franklin Lum wrote:Interesting discussion. If I had a DVD product, I think I'd package something with it that you couldn't download. Maybe a small booklet or gimmick.

- Frank


That's exactly my point Frank, "we"* need to create something either undownloadable - such as a gimmick - or make something a very limited release. Or something else. Why stop thinking? There is unlimited potential for ideas here - and we as magicians are meant to be good at creative problem solving. :)


*I use the word we very loosely, as I haven't created or produced a magic effect.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby James @ Black's » April 19th, 2008, 3:16 pm

Greetings everyone.

Some of you know me, some of you don't. Some of you like me, some of you won't. But ultimately, most of us can agree that piracy isn't a very positive thing for our community.

What I know for sure is that I'm not the kind of person to ignore a problem in the hopes that it will sort itself out. As a business owner and as an artist, I have a vested interest in finding solutions. And to be quite honest with you, there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to piracy.

If we are going to successfully mitigate the negative consequences associated with the theft of both intellectual property (in all its forms, copy protected or not), we have to work together as a community to find those solutions. Open discussions and honest dialog go a long way, but ultimately, it is action of some sort that produces results.

Each site (and each site owner) must be handled individually. The owner of the site alluded to is an intelligent, technologically savvy, headstrong young man with a bright future if he can learn to use the skills he's garnered in more positive ways. Having researched him, his family, and having spoken with both him and his mother about this, I can see that he comes from a good family and that he is a good person, but he's clearly misguided and deluded about the consequences of his actions.

He was so smart in fact, that he deliberately resolved his domain name to and paid for hosting from a DNS that takes a hard line stance against anti-piracy efforts and actually harbors -- get this -- sites operated by a plethora of terrorist organizations including Al-Qaeda and Islamic Jihad, many of which are recognized by most liberal democracies as groups dedicated to extreme acts of physical violence against anyone they fundamentally disagree with. While his link to them would be tenuous at best, he is but one of many people who in a small way financially facilitate these other groups to continue to use the web for their benefit. I doubt he understands the latter.

Now, that is but an illustration of fact, not an opportunity or invitation by members here to debate terrorism or similar "causes" around the world, as that would be both fruitless and off topic. I'm not approaching this from the position of a hack who gets his information from the media. Having served in the military and as an investigator, I'm but using the skills I've garnered from nearly 20 years of service to properly investigate these sites and I document what I find appropriately. That is, I'm not offering antidotal evidence here laced with speculation and conjecture; I approach this as if I were the investigator responsible for building a case, and in many respects, I am doing just that should I have to provide it to the FBI or offer it in evidence at a civil case.

Ultimately, my intention was and continues to be to find a way to stem the hemorrhage we are all experiencing through a mix of strategies from direct legal action to partnering with those responsible. To suggest that we can't do anything would be myopic at best; there are countless real-world examples of the few working to accomplish positive things, and succeeding against all odds. I for one am for that kind of thinking and applaud anyone who is willing to do more than serve as an arm-chair general.

Speaking of which, Karl von Clausewitz called in his classic tome Vom Kriege called war, politics through another means. His writings are as apropos for dealing with Iraq (or in his day events like the Jena campaign) as they are dealing with individuals who pirate our wares and disseminate them online or off. This includes organizations like IBM and SAM who take a hard line stance publically against, say, The Masked Magician, but do little to prevent members from copying DVDs for one another at meetings. But that is for another thread I hope.

Figuratively speaking, we are engaged in a conflict where one side is seeking to protect its interests (IP) from being appropriated by another side (pirates) who feel entitled, for whatever reason, to our hard work. Ultimately, the things we do mirror many of the strategic decisions leaders of various groups have taken against each other for centuries.

If indeed politics is the art of the possible, I think that should be our first effort. To negotiate. To look for solutions. To dialogue. To understand, educate, and share with an eye to, for the sake of another term, win the "hearts and minds" of those who perpetrate these crimes. While at the same time finding ways to passively negate piracy though technology and creative packaging, et cetra (ala Mr. Goat and Frank).

However, where I differ from some of the people who've posted here is that I am willing to engage the other side directly where necessary; court cases (the armed conflict of this situation if you will) should in my estimation, be the last course of action. That said, things can escalate very quickly based on the decisions and actions (or inaction) taken by the other side, and I'll not hesitate to take that route. Of course it helps that I'm a crack shot, even if I do say so myself (thanks for your tax dollars in that respect).

Like in a real war, if the other side postures or blatantly becomes aggressive, there comes a point where you have to pull the trigger -- figuratively speaking in this case.

Ultimately, I'll do whatever I can legally to mitigate the damages our art sustains. But I don't feel it is absolutely warranted or necessarily the best solution to go the latter route. Some may think this is a waste of time. Well, I respectfully disagree. I have both the means and ability, so I for one will continue to do rather than talk. That means using every possible option at my disposal. And I am fortunate enough to have many, whereas many of the site owners are not. That is, as the young man posted in his forums, where I will continue to have the upper hand. And so far, it is working.

After turning my interest on another site, I was able to negotiate a win/win solution where some 18,000 members will be cut off from a forum that collectively (which is far more egregious than say a torrent site where individuals must search for what they want rather than having it served up to them) has worked together to pirate thousands of titles from Richard's books (yes, they scan them from front to back and post them as PDFs) to DVDs produced with gimmicks, wherein the latter was diagrammed and details for manufacturing have been provided. The site owner and I actually get along well, and in this case, he's not a college student who already knows everything, but rather a grown man who has similar interests to my own. We were able to agree on many things, and that resulted in us looking for a solution together, which I'm happy to report is moving forward. Two down.

The next site I am after belongs to another young man in college who I've been looking into for about two months. The beauty in this case is that I hadn't yet garnered his details as I was able to with the first site mentioned above. The good news is, that despite his disdain for me, the young man I mentioned provided me with all the details he had on the third site. That's right, like a crack dealer who's been caught and then chastised by the manufacturer for getting caught, he's rolled and gave up other bad guys. And good for him for doing so.

Whatever his motivation, I'm glad he's done it. It makes my job much easier and allows for me to focus my resources and efforts. I'd like to think he's had a change of heart and that this experience has given him time to reflect and grow. Who knows. One can hope.

Best,

James
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 19th, 2008, 5:10 pm

Keep going, James, and thanks.
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Brad Henderson » April 21st, 2008, 1:29 pm

Goat,

No where in the site link that you sent does it establish causality between the lawsuits and increased traffic. If we look at numbers, there is an increase in murder rates after larger quantities of ice cream are consumed. If we look at numbers, a censored attracts lightning.

Of course, there are no causality links between the two, there are other reasons that those numbers correlate.

Simply showing an increase in traffic to a website shows nothing about the reasons of those sites. There are may reasons these sites can increase in traffic irrespective of the presence of a lawsuit. The only
proof" would be statements from the people who are now going to the site identifying why they are there. Of course, then would these statements not fall under the same skepticism as you have extended to the causal statements I have offered.

I am not being aggressive. I am simply pointing out your double standard. You have offered no causal link between the lawsuits and increased traffic. I have offered anecdotal evidence of a population (university students) who have been affected directly by the lawsuits and have expressed changes in attitude/behavior because of them. Was my study scientific? No. Hell, it wasn't even a study. But it sure goes a damn site further to establishing a causal link than a mere traffic counter on a website does.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 21st, 2008, 2:24 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Simply showing an increase in traffic to a website shows nothing about the reasons of those sites. There are may reasons these sites can increase in traffic irrespective of the presence of a lawsuit. The only proof" would be statements from the people who are now going to the site identifying why they are there. Of course, then would these statements not fall under the same skepticism as you have extended to the causal statements I have offered.

I am not being aggressive. I am simply pointing out your double standard. You have offered no causal link between the lawsuits and increased traffic. I have offered anecdotal evidence of a population (university students) who have been affected directly by the lawsuits and have expressed changes in attitude/behavior because of them. Was my study scientific? No. Hell, it wasn't even a study. But it sure goes a damn site further to establishing a causal link than a mere traffic counter on a website does.


OK.

First off, if you are going to dimiss Alexa, then you do need to understand it is very different from a webcounter on a website as you suggest.

Secondly, and most importantly, the MPAA disagree with you:

[The MPAA] concedes that there may be a cause-and-effect situation at play, but [The MPAA} says that it's unavoidable. "Look, I don't think there's any question that some of the public may not be aware of these sites and there's going to be curiosity. Some people end up staying there"
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20 ... sites.html

Finally, I have offered no skepticism whatsoever concerning your stories. I asked you whether or not you would expect me to believe something a friend of someone I don't know on an internet forum as gospel?

Our discussion on this is pointless though really.

Piracy is there. The MPAA concede that high profile cases and discussion increases traffic to the torrent sites. You would have to be very strange not to think it would.

So, rather than argue about what you think I inferred about your pal's delightful story, why not talk about another solution.

You don't care if I believe your story. I don't care if you believe Alexa. Let's be honest.

So I have suggested three possible solutions. What would YOU do if you were going to release a DVD product?

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Brad Henderson » April 21st, 2008, 2:54 pm

Actually, if you had offered the point that you knew people personally affected by a lawsuit, and they shared their feelings about it with you - I would have believed you. I may have asked a question, but I would not have dismissed you as being a perpetrator of meaningless hearsay.

The lawsuits over here seem to be targeting University communities (they can obtain their information from campus servers). For this group of people, it is affecting their attitudes and - by their admission - their behaviors.

Ignore me if you want. But don't imply that what I have said is untrue.

Brad

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 21st, 2008, 3:18 pm

Oh dear.

OK, you clearly have some issue against me on this. Not sure why. I tried to get the conversation to something constructive because what you are trying to argue about is boring. You failed to respond.

a) "their admission" I assume this is still just 'stories'? You don't actually have evidence NOT from the MPAA this is working?

b) I am not ignoring any single question you have asked me. However, you have failed to answer me three or four times now when I asked if you expect me to believe anything a friend of someone I don't know on the internet should be believed. Why?

Lemme ask one more time

Brad, my friend who you don't know said something happened. Should you believe them or should you ask for evidence?

c) Finally, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, link to a post of mine where I said what you said was untrue or "dismissed you as being a perpetrator of meaningless hearsay."

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Brad Henderson » April 21st, 2008, 3:55 pm

c) "You know how we all have a friend who had a spooky experience and swears blind it was supernatural forces?

Your tale seems like that to me. "

b) I assume that if you expect me to believe you and your conclusions, that you would reciprocate that courtesy. Apparently, I over estimated you.

a) I have not, nor do I intend, to follow these people around and verify that what they told me is true. However, there is no reason not to believe them. My point is simple, these lawsuits are affecting people, and changing people's behaviors - at least through according to one means we have to know, reports of that behavior. Polling is considered an acceptable reflection on behavior. I see no difference here.

Nevertheless, I am too honest to convince myself that their statements must be accurate. Of course, there can always be discrepancies. But I am also too honest to accept that an assumption on causality made by an organization MUST be true either.

This is not the same as someone who had a friend who had a friend who saw an Ouija board move by itself. It is reporting from a group of people who have been directly affected by a lawsuit. You can continue with assumptions of causality. I think there is some validity in considering the words of people who are now paying real money over behaviors in which they engaged.

B

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 21st, 2008, 4:00 pm

Wow.

I am not sure how you link that to me calling you a liar. Can you go through the steps of how you got from that quote, where I ask you a question, to me accusing you of lying?

My point was, and remains, if someone I don't know has a friend who said something happened, should I believe them?

This is not me calling you a liar. If I were doing that I would say "you are a liar".

I hope the difference is clear.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Brad Henderson » April 21st, 2008, 4:07 pm

The difference is simple: You expect people to take your words at face value, but you will not extend that courtesy to others.

It's simple, really.

Can you give me any cause not to believe what I have said? What about any of the other statements you have made on other posts? Shall we now choose to discount all of your posts simply because they are based on your experience or contacts with friends/colleagues/clients.

You hold to a double standard and are intellectually dishonest. Arrogant I think also applies.

But hey, we are what we are.

Best,

Brad

(Perpetrator of meaningless hearsay is different from being a liar, BTW.)

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Sue Anne Webster » April 21st, 2008, 6:59 pm

I think James Clark has made a great step forward in the fight against illegal downloading of magic DVDs and proven that actions speak louder than words.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 21st, 2008, 7:18 pm

James Clark is a tenacious dude--he fights and fights hard. Maybe he can make a difference. If he does, we'll all benefit.
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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 21st, 2008, 8:35 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:The difference is simple: You expect people to take your words at face value, but you will not extend that courtesy to others.


Quote me saying either of those things. Do try and stop saying I said things which are your (wrong) interpretation of events. Please at least do me the courtesy of quoting me and arguing against that. It's really the done thing.

Brad Henderson wrote:It's simple, really.


Seemingly not. I asked if you would believe me if I told you my friend had said something happened. I've asked this about 6 times now I think, and rather than answer, you just call me names and accuse me of calling you a liar?

I really find your behaviour interesting.


Brad Henderson wrote:Can you give me any cause not to believe what I have said?


Yes. I do not know you and do not know your friend. I am naturally skeptical. It is nothing personal. I would not believe ANYTHING anyone's friend told me on an internet forum. My just cause is I treat you like anyone else in this world I do not know.

Brad Henderson wrote: What about any of the other statements you have made on other posts? Shall we now choose to discount all of your posts simply because they are based on your experience or contacts with friends/colleagues/clients.


If that is what you feel is sensible, go for it.

Brad Henderson wrote:You hold to a double standard and are intellectually dishonest. Arrogant I think also applies.


Love you too snook'ems.

Brad Henderson wrote:But hey, we are what we are.


Yes. I am the man trying to ask you a reasonable question. You are the man calling me names. Although I did quite like 'intellectually dishonest' and may use that on another forum. Accordingly credited, of course.

Brad Henderson wrote:(Perpetrator of meaningless hearsay is different from being a liar, BTW.)


(Arguing about something really, really stupid* on the internet in the middle of a very serious discussion about what can be done about internet piracy is different from meaningfully contributing to a community in trouble, BTW)




*What is stems down do seems to be you misinterpreting me asking you a question somehow as me calling you a liar. This was not my intention. My repeated asking of it was to try and get you to answer. It was an almost hypothetical question. Only an idiot would believe what a stranger told him on the internet had happened to a friend. I wanted you to answer that you wouldn't believe what a stranger's friend said happened to them on the internet. At which point I would have cunningly proved my point and chuckled merrily The point being that I showed graphs, websites, and heck you even got me to find a quote from the MPAA agreeing with me to prove my point. And you? Well you offered a third party story. In terms of proving one side of an argument against another, I am afraid I wouldn't back you in court. You are absolutely entitled to your belief.

However, I cannot stress this enough, I was not, and have not called you a liar.

I leave the name-calling to you.

Once again, I will try and re-rail this. So, what would you suggest we try to stop piracy in magic?

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 21st, 2008, 8:38 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:James Clark is a tenacious dude--he fights and fights hard. Maybe he can make a difference. If he does, we'll all benefit.


Maybe he can teach others his techniques or form some sort of group?

I know there are enough copyright holders in the market that would even possibly finance such an organisation? This is how the MPAA and RIAA work?

James Clark clearly has the right approach and technique on shutting down these sites.

However, there is - of course - the ubiquitous torrent sites which can't be shut down, but I am not sure how much magic is on those large public areas. I am sure more is behind closed doors. The kind Mr Clark kicks down. :)

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Gary Kosnitzky » April 21st, 2008, 9:32 pm

Keep up the good work Mr. Clark.

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Brad Henderson » April 22nd, 2008, 12:34 am

mrgoat wrote:
Seemingly not. I asked if you would believe me if I told you my friend had said something happened. I've asked this about 6 times now I think, and rather than answer, you just call me names and accuse me of calling you a liar?

I really find your behaviour interesting.


Brad Henderson wrote:Actually, if you had offered the point that you knew people personally affected by a lawsuit, and they shared their feelings about it with you - I would have believed you.




See, you have no interest in intellectual honesty. But you have established clearly the terms you will extend to others and the terms, I suppose, we should extend to you.

From this moment forward, any claim you care to make that is based on your feelings, your experiences, or your clients/friends experience or feelings should be treated as meaningless and irrelevant. Nothing you offer that is not based on third party evidence should even be entered into a topic of conversation. Clearly no one else should be allowed to and be taken seriously. I assume you would allow the same rules to apply to you.

I can also assume, based on your behavior, that should you ever disagree with what we say, or offer a contrary view based on your experience or the experience of your colleagues, we should rightfully call your contributions boring and stupid as you have done mine. (Do I need to bother cutting and pasting those too, or can you look ever so slightly back and see where you did that?)See, there are many ways to say something, and not be quoted as saying those words. You can play the "quote me game" all you want. But that does not change the meaning of your messages. Interestingly, boring and stupid ARE quotes. But please, the "quote me game"?

I know now very clearly with whom I am dealing and am now prepared to put your words into their context. Thank you for taking the time to clear that up.

I look forward to your further contributions not based on your experiences or those of your friends/colleagues/clients. I assume we can expect that from you in the future.

Thanks,

Brad

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby Chris Aguilar » April 22nd, 2008, 1:11 am

Image

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby James @ Black's » April 22nd, 2008, 1:56 am

Thank you Richard; your support means a lot to me. As does the support of the many artists and producers who've both emailed me and posted about my efforts recently.

If I can speak candidly for a moment, many of us (myself included on too many occasions) miss incredible opportunities to work with other artists in this community because we get caught up in articulating why we think what we think or disagree with what we disagree with.

Forgive me, but a lot of threads these days look a lot like an arguing match or game of testosterone induced one-up-manship; I just don't see the point really. Not that other people's views are not important, just that sometimes things seem to get side tracked and waffle on about nothing.

I was hoping that some of you here, especially the more plugged in and articulate members of our forums (that isn't intended to be exclusionary in any manner BTW), might be willing to offer actionable ideas rather than engaging in the former school yard shenanigans.

It's certainly not my place to demand it or to attempt to dictate to anyone here how they should invest their time on the forums or off; I consider you my peers, not my children or wards. I recognize that I have no right to force my views on you or to expect any of you to act in any specific manner, but I am respectfully asking if we might do so.

It would be an honor to work with the forum members here to look at ways that we can collectively create productive action plans. Each of you have something to offer. So, if it's not too much to ask, might we stir this thread towards that end?

If I may, let me address two views that are consuming the latter part of this thread. While I do not fully agree with the assertion that publicity will result in an increase of visitors who turn towards criminality beyond the most negligible, I do recognize that (like in magic) some information is better left secret, or at least restricted to the proper audience.

I have found that as issues of this nature hit the Internet (or are shared via other media broadcasts), there is an increase in direct traffic to the sites in question. That is, individuals request the URL itself, rather than finding it in, say, Google.

Of course, the analytics offered by Alexa and other comparable services cannot tell us if these visitors actually partake in criminality, or if they are there predominately out of curiosity.

Thus, we do not have sufficient evidence (in my mind) to establish a direct causal link (there is certainly anecdotal evidence) that would induce me to only broadcast obfuscated or masked information in the hopes that the resulting publicity will a.) garner support for this cause; b.) scare the honest into staying that way; and c.) inform those arrogant creatures who run these sites to realize (realise in AU, EU, and GB) that they can be held accountable and should be looking over their shoulder.

That said, I'm not so naive as to suggest that there may not be a direct causal link, so I think it is worthy of a proper look.

In the same vein, I do not question that Brad is associated with people who might have shared with him that they (or people they know) are feeling the sting of strategic anti-piracy efforts at universities here in the US; there are ample reports that these actions are taking place, but it will take a while to know the long-term results of such efforts.

In short, I think both have merit, and I'd like to consider the pros and cons of both sides to establish policy that best suits our (or at least mine, as I have not earned the right to speak for the community) needs in this industry.

I am personally grateful for the discussion between Brad and Mr. Goat, but think I lost interest around the time it turned into a quid pro quo discussion. Ultimately, I move on after someone tables an idea and begin to research it for myself anyway; I'm not really concerned with who is right or how they might have been misread by the other. I'm simply looking for constructive ideas. Perhaps discussions of that nature are better via PM or side-lined in favor of more constructive pursuits?

I'm merely asking respectfully, not looking for a fight.

Mr. Goat suggested, and thank him for it, that there might be a benefit in offering an insider's view to others in how I proceed forward with each case. I'd be delighted to do so. My only hesitation or reservation at this juncture would be that the forum is open to the public and in teaching what any good investigator would look for, I risk tipping my hand to the opposition. I think, at the heart of it, that's what I got from Mr. Goat's message.

Which leads to a quandary doesn't it my good men, much like in how you might respond to piracy; what is the best answer. And the only one I am certain of is that I simply do not have all the answers.

If there is an interest, I'd be willing to establish a password protected forum at my company site and provide access to the members of this forum that I either know personally or who come recommended from Richard directly (he knows everyone and can easily vouch for their credibility).

If anyone would like to indulge their interests in this particular topic, and if possible even lend a hand in the investigations, I'd most welcome it and offer up detailed instruction each week along with possible tasks we could all engage in together. You'd be surprised what we could all accomplish if we all decided to step up to the plate and take a big F-ing swing at this problem.

With warm regards,

James

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 22nd, 2008, 5:31 am

Brad Henderson wrote:From this moment forward, any claim you care to make that is based on your feelings, your experiences, or your clients/friends experience or feelings should be treated as meaningless and irrelevant.


If that's what you want to do, that's just dandy. Feel free to not just go from this moment though. There are years of posts, on many forums you can also treat as meaningless. Knock yourself out.

Brad Henderson wrote:I can also assume, based on your behavior, that should you ever disagree with what we say, or offer a contrary view based on your experience or the experience of your colleagues, we should rightfully call your contributions boring and stupid as you have done mine.


You carry on posting your interpretations of what I typed rather than quote and respond if you want. Call me names if you want. I've tried to stop your ranting about 3 times and make you realise you are incorrect about your assumptions. That's clearly fruitless.

Brad Henderson wrote:I know now very clearly with whom I am dealing and am now prepared to put your words into their context. Thank you for taking the time to clear that up.


"put into context" or "interpret incorrectly and get awfully annoyed about".

Brad Henderson wrote:I look forward to your further contributions not based on your experiences or those of your friends/colleagues/clients. I assume we can expect that from you in the future.


If I am trying to prove a point, I will certainly not post about experiences of my friends and offer that as evidence. Clearly, that isn't evidence. Not according to my dictionary.

Call me names if you care to. Ignore all my posts ever made if you want to. Fail to respond to any polite question asked of you. But maybe start a new thread about how awful I am so this one can carry on being a discussion about piracy and how to stop it?

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Re: One exposure site feels the pain...

Postby mrgoat » April 22nd, 2008, 5:37 am

James @ Black's wrote:I'm merely asking respectfully, not looking for a fight.


Believe it or not, me neither. Seems I got one though :)

James @ Black's wrote:Mr. Goat suggested, and thank him for it, that there might be a benefit in offering an insider's view to others in how I proceed forward with each case. I'd be delighted to do so. My only hesitation or reservation at this juncture would be that the forum is open to the public and in teaching what any good investigator would look for, I risk tipping my hand to the opposition. I think, at the heart of it, that's what I got from Mr. Goat's message.


Yes, that was what I meant, but not in public. Whether I am right or wrong about public exposure/discussion of high profile anti-piracy lawsuits being good or bad, discussion of tactics to bring down the pirates is clearly something that should take place in private.


James @ Black's wrote:If there is an interest, I'd be willing to establish a password protected forum at my company site and provide access to the members of this forum that I either know personally or who come recommended from Richard directly (he knows everyone and can easily vouch for their credibility).


That would work. Just a simple phpbb free forum software would work. Doesn't need to be pretty, just functional. Or could be a mailing list type discussion. I could help set up and run that if that was the option preferred. (I have a private mail server with 'email discussion' software. Feel free to contact me at damianjennings AT gmail DOT com if you wish to discuss this option further offlist.

James @ Black's wrote:If anyone would like to indulge their interests in this particular topic, and if possible even lend a hand in the investigations, I'd most welcome it and offer up detailed instruction each week along with possible tasks we could all engage in together. You'd be surprised what we could all accomplish if we all decided to step up to the plate and take a big F-ing swing at this problem.


I think approaching L&L etc and getting them on board would be a good first step. Then, setting up the group should become easier.

Damian


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