And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
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Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Are we yet able to distinguish between the brain and the mind?
"Hope I Die Before I Get Old"
P. Townshend
P. Townshend
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
We tend to use one word to denote the object itself and the other to describe the result of its functioning in situ.Originally posted by Brandon Hall:
Are we yet able to distinguish between the brain and the mind?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
If we admit that science is limited to space and time as we know it, does that mean we cannot allow for anything outwith those limitations?
What gives us the right to "demand" that our limited means should be able to comprehend something perhaps much larger? Or else simply dismiss it as hogwash?
Much of what we now take for granted would be considered downright magical and/or impossible only a century ago. And that progress is STILL within the bounds of science. What more might exist beyond it?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,than are dreamt of in your philosophy"... and science.
What gives us the right to "demand" that our limited means should be able to comprehend something perhaps much larger? Or else simply dismiss it as hogwash?
Much of what we now take for granted would be considered downright magical and/or impossible only a century ago. And that progress is STILL within the bounds of science. What more might exist beyond it?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,than are dreamt of in your philosophy"... and science.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Dreaming is fine. Expecting reality to be full of surprises is healthy. But counting invisible elephants which fly and expecting others to get the same count is kinda silly.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
...
Much of what we now take for granted would be considered downright magical and/or impossible only a century ago. And that progress is STILL within the bounds of science. What more might exist beyond it?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,than are dreamt of in your philosophy"... and science.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Science is not limited to space and time, it also includes dimension. And there are a lot of amazing and wonderful things that go on within space, time and dimension. So many that I wonder why anyone needs something like the occult.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
If we admit that science is limited to space and time as we know it, does that mean we cannot allow for anything outwith those limitations?
What gives us the right to "demand" that our limited means should be able to comprehend something perhaps much larger? Or else simply dismiss it as hogwash?
Much of what we now take for granted would be considered downright magical and/or impossible only a century ago. And that progress is STILL within the bounds of science. What more might exist beyond it?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,than are dreamt of in your philosophy"... and science.
But ok, let's throw out science for a moment. Let's just say that, beyond any double blind experiment, I just want some proof.
Show me a picture of a floating skull that isn't just light reflected/refracted through condensation.
Show me a bigfoot picture/video that isn't shaky and fuzzy.
Show me one voice in the static that is clear and dead.
One thing, anything, that I can look at and say "Wow, ain't no way to explain that."
I got a bright shiny penny to anyone who can.
Gord
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Well played, Gord. I have several books on Quantum Physics, But I was referring to what Dark Matter does, not if it is there. There are theories on what it does, but only theories, no absolutes. Until then, we can only ponder. There is also a theory for the existence of a shadow universe (See the book: 'Superstrings and the Search for the Theory of Everything' for an interesting read.)Originally posted by Scott Priest:
Personally, I am not sold on string or superstring theory but it does make for interesting debate/study. But, back to the subject at hand. If there is such a thing as a ghost or spirit it would seem that it is relative to the observer as to what they would appear to be. Our world looks the way we observe it be, so it would logically follow suit that if such things are 'real' then they would also appear in the form that we give them.... hmmmm. [/QUOTE]
I agree on many things here. First of all, this whole "String","Superstring" theory is extremely interesting. I too am not completely sold on it, but the possibilities are staggering.
As for the second part ... Dude I have to admit you've got me on this one. Observation of the same effect can be different for multiple parties.
Except that we aren't talking quantum mechanics, we are talking ghosts or ESP. Phenomena that should be observable and measurable and provable.
Gord
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Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
I am very hesitant about using recent physics to make models about the world and how things work; and am very skeptical about books purporting to explain recent work to laymen.
Mathematical physics, traditionally, abstracts magnitudes from things in the world; finds truths about those magnitudes; and then is able to re-integrate what it has learned in a way that is physically comprehensible.
I create a standing wave in a length of thread. I can make measurements of magnitudes associated with the wave; then go to my chalkboard and calculate other magnitudes; then I can take the calculated magnitudes and understand what they mean in terms of the phenomenon.
I.E. I calculate the frequency of the wave, and I know that is the number of times my hand sends an impulse through the string in some given amount of time. I calculate the amplitude, and I can point to a diagram of a standing wave to show what it is that I am measuring.
I can, thanks to De Broglie, calculate the "frequency," or "wavelength," or "amplitude" of an atom (or, for that matter, a football stadium). I cannot, however, make a an accurate and meaningful picture of an atom. I cannot make a drawing of a thing with a nucleus and a cloud of electrons (which do not have a measurable location, except that there are places where they are not) and show you -- on that drawing -- what I am measuring when I calculate the "wavelength" of the atom.
I do not have the mathematics (or the time) to read more recent papers in the field. My understanding, from conversations with one person who has both, is that the work has become even more "symbols on a chalkboard": internally coherent and non self-contradicting statements, but not tied to anything in the world that we can point to. Relations between magnitudes, but with no one able to say what it is that the magnitudes are...we get numbers without knowing what we're counting
This is a very long way of saying that to talk about whether or not one is "sold on" string and superstring theory is to put the cart miles ahead of the horse.
Mathematical physics, traditionally, abstracts magnitudes from things in the world; finds truths about those magnitudes; and then is able to re-integrate what it has learned in a way that is physically comprehensible.
I create a standing wave in a length of thread. I can make measurements of magnitudes associated with the wave; then go to my chalkboard and calculate other magnitudes; then I can take the calculated magnitudes and understand what they mean in terms of the phenomenon.
I.E. I calculate the frequency of the wave, and I know that is the number of times my hand sends an impulse through the string in some given amount of time. I calculate the amplitude, and I can point to a diagram of a standing wave to show what it is that I am measuring.
I can, thanks to De Broglie, calculate the "frequency," or "wavelength," or "amplitude" of an atom (or, for that matter, a football stadium). I cannot, however, make a an accurate and meaningful picture of an atom. I cannot make a drawing of a thing with a nucleus and a cloud of electrons (which do not have a measurable location, except that there are places where they are not) and show you -- on that drawing -- what I am measuring when I calculate the "wavelength" of the atom.
I do not have the mathematics (or the time) to read more recent papers in the field. My understanding, from conversations with one person who has both, is that the work has become even more "symbols on a chalkboard": internally coherent and non self-contradicting statements, but not tied to anything in the world that we can point to. Relations between magnitudes, but with no one able to say what it is that the magnitudes are...we get numbers without knowing what we're counting
This is a very long way of saying that to talk about whether or not one is "sold on" string and superstring theory is to put the cart miles ahead of the horse.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
What IS all this science talk, and demand for scientific proofs, of something that is BEYOND science?
I'm not simply suggesting a potential we just haven't realized yet - I'm referring to a SEPARATE SPECIES of being. One that has no possibility of being "proved" scientifically as it operates outwith the scope of scientific investigation itself.
I can't "prove" [using scientific method] that it exists anymore than you can "prove" it doesn't!
I'm not simply suggesting a potential we just haven't realized yet - I'm referring to a SEPARATE SPECIES of being. One that has no possibility of being "proved" scientifically as it operates outwith the scope of scientific investigation itself.
I can't "prove" [using scientific method] that it exists anymore than you can "prove" it doesn't!
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
I'd appreciate a translation of the second paragraph and as far as proving something doesn't exist, that's now how it works. You who make the assertion that "something" exists must produce the evidence to prove that your assertion is correct and describing something that is real..as opposed to something you're mis-identifying or fantasizing.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
What IS all this science talk, and demand for scientific proofs, of something that is BEYOND science?
I'm not simply suggesting a potential we just haven't realized yet - I'm referring to a SEPARATE SPECIES of being. One that has no possibility of being "proved" scientifically as it operates outwith the scope of scientific investigation itself.
I can't "prove" [using scientific method] that it exists anymore than you can "prove" it doesn't!
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Experience is what it is. Whether or not there is a process to reproduce that experience or even measure some aspects of that experience is irrelevant. People feel what they feel and believe what they believe. The subjective reality of their experience is not a matter of scientific dispute.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
What IS all this science talk, and demand for scientific proofs, of something that is BEYOND science?...
The basic reported truth of subjective experience offers its own field of study which may well return its own findings.
have you ever noticed that not many Europeans report seeing ancient Chinese ghosts?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
What several of you are not taking into account is that we as humans can only percieve a limited amount of phenomenon. Our eyes take in molecular movement from about 440 trillion to 660 trillion times per second. Molecules move at different rates of speed, and our eyes are tuned to a very narrow band of it. Thus, we cannot percieve ultra-violet light, but it exists. The same goes for hearing: when air moves in and out of our ear, our eardrum sways and we detect "sound" from 60 cycles per second to about 20,000 cycles per second. Air moves slower and faster, but it is out of the human range of detection. This means that we are only in touch with less than 1% of all phenomena. Also, the energy that exists after what we miscall death is still there, only the body is gone. Magicians have gotten on this "Randi-like" crusade against belief in phenomenon, which is really just shutting off to possibility. Like the mentalist who feels driven to give a disclaimer throughout the show for "ethical" reasons (HA!), destroying the illusion we are supposed to be creating. It would be like an actor in the middle of a play turning to the audience saying: "By the way, this is not real, we are just acting here, so do not believe it" - and then continuing the play. How many of you who take this view of NO GHOSTS have spiritual belief systems? Is that not a faith or belief in invisible phenomenon? You also have to examine what the term "ghost" means to you, but that is an entirely different semantics discussion. Also, where else does this crusade like closed-mindedness show up in your life? The earth was believed flat for years, people were inprisoned and killed because of others clinging to their limiting belief systems. Happy thinking.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
What evidence do you have of some sort of energy existing after a person's death?Originally posted by Timothy Noonan:
... Also, the energy that exists after what we miscall death is still there, only the body is gone. ...
And since when does their body become "gone"? Lotta coroners, undertakers and grieving relatives gonna be real surprised by that one.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
If anyone is inclined to dismiss Timothy's discussion on the limits of human observation, there is a fellow named Heisenberg who made a slightly more academic case for the same argument...
Here's a slightly more entertaining (and thoroughly more famous) take on the matter:
-------------------------------
"You don't believe in me," observed the Ghost.
"I don't." said Scrooge.
"What evidence would you have of my reality, beyond that of your senses?"
"I don't know," said Scrooge.
"Why do you doubt your senses?"
"Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!"
Scrooge was not much in the habit of cracking jokes, nor did he feel, in his heart, by any means waggish then. The truth is, that he tried to be smart, as a means of distracting his own attention, and keeping down his terror; for the spectre's voice disturbed the very marrow in his bones.
To sit, staring at those fixed glazed eyes, in silence for a moment, would play, Scrooge felt, the very deuce with him. There was something very awful, too, in the spectre's being provided with an infernal atmosphere of its own. Scrooge could not feel it himself, but this was clearly the case; for though the Ghost sat perfectly motionless, its hair, and skirts, and tassels, were still agitated as by the hot vapour from an oven.
"You see this toothpick?" said Scrooge, returning quickly to the charge, for the reason just assigned; and wishing, though it were only for a second, to divert the vision's stony gaze from himself.
"I do," replied the Ghost.
"You are not looking at it," said Scrooge.
"But I see it," said the Ghost, "notwithstanding."
"Well!" returned Scrooge, "I have but to swallow this, and be for the rest of my days persecuted by a legion of goblins, all of my own creation. Humbug, I tell you! humbug!"
At this the spirit raised a frightful cry, and shook its chain with such a dismal and appalling noise, that Scrooge held on tight to his chair, to save himself from falling in a swoon. But how much greater was his horror, when the phantom taking off the bandage round its head, as if it were too warm to wear indoors, its lower jaw dropped down upon its breast!
Scrooge fell upon his knees, and clasped his hands before his face.
"Mercy!" he said. "Dreadful apparition, why do you trouble me?"
"Man of the worldly mind!" replied the Ghost, "do you believe in me or not?"
"I do," said Scrooge. "I must."
-------------
As is often the case, the poet is cleverer than he knows: "[We] try to be smart, as a means of distracting [our] own attention."
Here's a slightly more entertaining (and thoroughly more famous) take on the matter:
-------------------------------
"You don't believe in me," observed the Ghost.
"I don't." said Scrooge.
"What evidence would you have of my reality, beyond that of your senses?"
"I don't know," said Scrooge.
"Why do you doubt your senses?"
"Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!"
Scrooge was not much in the habit of cracking jokes, nor did he feel, in his heart, by any means waggish then. The truth is, that he tried to be smart, as a means of distracting his own attention, and keeping down his terror; for the spectre's voice disturbed the very marrow in his bones.
To sit, staring at those fixed glazed eyes, in silence for a moment, would play, Scrooge felt, the very deuce with him. There was something very awful, too, in the spectre's being provided with an infernal atmosphere of its own. Scrooge could not feel it himself, but this was clearly the case; for though the Ghost sat perfectly motionless, its hair, and skirts, and tassels, were still agitated as by the hot vapour from an oven.
"You see this toothpick?" said Scrooge, returning quickly to the charge, for the reason just assigned; and wishing, though it were only for a second, to divert the vision's stony gaze from himself.
"I do," replied the Ghost.
"You are not looking at it," said Scrooge.
"But I see it," said the Ghost, "notwithstanding."
"Well!" returned Scrooge, "I have but to swallow this, and be for the rest of my days persecuted by a legion of goblins, all of my own creation. Humbug, I tell you! humbug!"
At this the spirit raised a frightful cry, and shook its chain with such a dismal and appalling noise, that Scrooge held on tight to his chair, to save himself from falling in a swoon. But how much greater was his horror, when the phantom taking off the bandage round its head, as if it were too warm to wear indoors, its lower jaw dropped down upon its breast!
Scrooge fell upon his knees, and clasped his hands before his face.
"Mercy!" he said. "Dreadful apparition, why do you trouble me?"
"Man of the worldly mind!" replied the Ghost, "do you believe in me or not?"
"I do," said Scrooge. "I must."
-------------
As is often the case, the poet is cleverer than he knows: "[We] try to be smart, as a means of distracting [our] own attention."
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Mr. Noonan, your heartfelt post made me grin--but evidently you don't really appreciate the hard-boiled nature of the cynicism of some Forum members.
Everything you said has been said for 100 years.
We now have computers that can perform Billions of computations each and every second, for years on end. We have spectrometers, among other instruments to measure the slightest HINT of ANYTHING to make up for or at least help with our incredible human shortcomings.
For hundreds of years people (including actual scientists and researchers) have specifically been trying to communicate with the departed.
Even NOW with ALL available, mind-blowing technology--we have gotten zip.
Your high-falutin', flowery-prose is cute, and your delineation of sensory limits is impressive, but where is your goddam ghost?
P.S. How old are you? Are you a hippie?
Everything you said has been said for 100 years.
We now have computers that can perform Billions of computations each and every second, for years on end. We have spectrometers, among other instruments to measure the slightest HINT of ANYTHING to make up for or at least help with our incredible human shortcomings.
For hundreds of years people (including actual scientists and researchers) have specifically been trying to communicate with the departed.
Even NOW with ALL available, mind-blowing technology--we have gotten zip.
Your high-falutin', flowery-prose is cute, and your delineation of sensory limits is impressive, but where is your goddam ghost?
P.S. How old are you? Are you a hippie?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Planck's constant, like Avogadro's number speaks to a reality several orders of magnitude outside of our directly observable everyday experience.Originally posted by Doug Peters:
If anyone is inclined to dismiss Timothy's discussion on the limits of human observation, there is a fellow named Heisenberg who made a slightly more academic case for the same argument...
Claiming a parallel between our fairy tales and the universe as modeled by statistical mechanics is about as pointless as believing you can meditate to become sufficiently lucky as to pick the next winning lottery numbers.
Go ahead, odds are only 1 to ten (with about 25 zeros after it) against you. Feeling lucky?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
I loves my "Christmas Carol".
And I only kid for one reason. --Why?
Because I care.
(Obnoxious, but true...)
And I only kid for one reason. --Why?
Because I care.
(Obnoxious, but true...)
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Ah, yes, luck. Some day, I hope to have the opportunity to tell you my lottery story over a nice beer. You were only eighteen zeros off - and even further if you consider the misinterpretation of what I wrote.Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Go ahead, odds are only 1 to ten (with about 25 zeros after it) against you. Feeling lucky?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Then how do you know?Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
What IS all this science talk, and demand for scientific proofs, of something that is BEYOND science?
I'm not simply suggesting a potential we just haven't realized yet - I'm referring to a SEPARATE SPECIES of being. One that has no possibility of being "proved" scientifically as it operates outwith the scope of scientific investigation itself.
I can't "prove" [using scientific method] that it exists anymore than you can "prove" it doesn't!
I mean, if you can't prove it, then how do you know it's real?
How do you know that it's not just a funny feeling you have?
Gord
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Happy to buy you that beer and listen to that story.Originally posted by Doug Peters:
Ah, yes, luck. Some day, I hope to have the opportunity to tell you my lottery story over a nice beer. ... [/b]Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
[b]Go ahead, odds are only 1 to ten (with about 25 zeros after it) against you. Feeling lucky?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Feelings are real to the person having the feelings.Originally posted by Gord Gardiner:
...if you can't prove it, then how do you know it's real?
How do you know that it's not just a funny feeling you have?
One way of looking at this is to ask whether there is enough data to formulate a testable hypothesis.
ANOVA anyone?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
I'm a skeptic..but then again, by definition, I believe that anyone who
is wholly skeptical toward the Noonan abstract will ever discover anything
new about the world around them that isn't already covered in encyclopedias.
I am reminded of the Wright Brothers, bicycle mechanics,
who
only conquered the air after wisely going against the noted aerodynamic
scholars of their time.
Actually, now I'm starting to doubt that I am a skeptic.
is wholly skeptical toward the Noonan abstract will ever discover anything
new about the world around them that isn't already covered in encyclopedias.
I am reminded of the Wright Brothers, bicycle mechanics,
who
only conquered the air after wisely going against the noted aerodynamic
scholars of their time.
Actually, now I'm starting to doubt that I am a skeptic.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
meta-skepticism is quite healthy.Originally posted by Chris Ritter:
Actually, now I'm starting to doubt that I am a skeptic.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
As comedy that almost works. As rational thought it fails miserably.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
...I'm referring to a SEPARATE SPECIES of being. One that has no possibility of being "proved" scientifically as it operates outwith the scope of scientific investigation itself...
There is little (or actually nothing) which acts upon the material and measurable world which is itself outside the realm of scientific investigation. If a thing affects or effects a person, it's presence, nature and even the nature and extent of its ability to affect a person are all subject to scientific investigation.
Regardless of what it is, if someone experiences it, that experience itself as well as the conditions under which they experienced it can be subjected to scientific investigation.
Of course, working from inside subjective experience outward one is free to embellish one's reality with whatever suits, be it those invisible flying elephants mentioned above or some more human-like causal attribution of purpose to ones present and historical experiences. All are free to talk to their keys and listen to the rice crispies snap crackle and pop in the morning if that serves them and helps the get along in their day.
Please do let us know if you find any unusual and reliable sources of insight or even perspective.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Prove it. ;)There is little (or actually nothing) which acts upon the material and measurable world which is itself outside the realm of scientific investigation.
I totally agree that science CAN detect and to an extent measure the EFFECTS of forces outwith its bounds - gravity is a case in point. It is the actual activity itself, and its source, which is beyond the material scientific investigation.If a thing affects or effects a person, it's presence, nature and even the nature and extent of its ability to affect a person are all subject to scientific investigation.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
It goes the other way. Find an exception. That's science.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
Prove it. ;)There is little (or actually nothing) which acts upon the material and measurable world which is itself outside the realm of scientific investigation.
...
Gravity is just a word we use to ecapsulate all the phenomena which can be accounted for solely based upon inertial mass and distance - which is quite a bit - so the theory of gravity seems on sound footing.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Are we sure that "self-consciousness" (something that does indeed act upon the material and measurable world) is not outside the realm of scientific investigation?Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
There is little (or actually nothing) which acts upon the material and measurable world which is itself outside the realm of scientific investigation.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
There is plenty of meta-experience (old term would be self-consiousness) research (from developmental and cognitive studies of guile to meta-mood experience) which has collected data and so that too appears well within the realm of mainstream science.Originally posted by Doug Peters:
Are we sure that "self-consciousness" (something that does indeed act upon the material and measurable world) is not outside the realm of scientific investigation? [/b]Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
[b]There is little (or actually nothing) which acts upon the material and measurable world which is itself outside the realm of scientific investigation.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Seriously, why is that? Why does it "go the other way"?It goes the other way. Find an exception. That's science.
I could equally state: "Everything that acts upon the material and measurable world is itself outside the realm of scientific investigation."
Does it go the other way now? Can you find an exception? Is that science?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
That's the difference between the realms of fantasy and science.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
Seriously, why is that? Why does it "go the other way"?...It goes the other way. Find an exception. That's science.
Fantasy offers an infinity of possible and interesting perspectives to enjoy. Accepting something from the realm of fantasy offers sentimental richness to one's life.
Science offers precise measures of what to expect based upon the most modest of models and principles. Accepting the model (up for testing) offers surety in one's expectations so that one can plan.
Where good science suggests things to test (to see if a hypothesis holds true) - fantasy offers wonders to consider for the sheer experience of wondering.
Both are valuable realms and may well be fundamental to our human condition. this distinction is parelled in our craft where the literature tends to seperate discussions of "effect" (fantasy - sentimental) and "method" (procedural - mechanical)
:)
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Appearances can be deceiving. (Magic teaches at least that much ;) ) There is also plenty (oodles, even) of "research" on abiogenesis. To say that abiogenesis is "well within the realm of mainstream science" would be either arrogant or wildly optimistic. The same is true of self-consciousness research.Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
There is plenty of meta-experience (old term would be self-consiousness) research ... so that too appears well within the realm of mainstream science.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
The 'self consciousness' research has yielded workable scientific findings in both hypothesis and data. It seems to have value when seeking to make accurate predictions. Seems by the way means "works just fine for now but who knows what will be found next Tuesday". This is not about facile appearances as in conjuring.Originally posted by Doug Peters:
...There is also plenty (oodles, even) of "research" on abiogenesis. To say that abiogenesis is "well within the realm of mainstream science" would be either arrogant or wildly optimistic. The same is true of self-consciousness research.
Now, about abiogenesis (great example - thanks) - that looked promising to some folks and yet when the hypotheses were formed (soup and sparks yields stuff that looks VERY much like life as we know it) - no findings to date. There is some current exploration of whether shallow puddles over clay is a more likely condition than larger puddles or oceans.
So it's really all about the testable hypothesis, the experiments and the findings. It's not so much about saying "this is how organic molecules formed" but rather saying "this is our best guess so far about how it most likely happened based upon everything else we know from direct observation and experimentally derived data".
The scientific 'story' is only meant to satisfy our old buddy John of Occam and his pet parsimony. Inelegant tales are trimmed or entirely scrapped infavor of more elegant tales (hypotheses) and the scraps fed to the pet. For an emotionally satisfying tale we have writers like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Douglas Adams...
:)
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
And with that, everything that science cannot explain is reduced to simple illusion.That's the difference between the realms of fantasy and science.
Who was it that said "argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours"?
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Ah - hold on there my friend. :) It's the realm of story which offers explanations.Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
And with that, everything that science cannot explain is reduced to simple illusion...That's the difference between the realms of fantasy and science.
Science does not presume to explain things. It merely offers the most elegant framework or model from which to further inquire of things and predict what can be found when one does things.
By way of example, if someone wanted to insist that it was flying elephants which guide things near the surface of the earth to tend to move toward the center of the earth...science does not decide if there are invisible flying elephants. It just offers an elegant and predictive interpretation of the phenomena - a most simple model applicable to phenomena which some also wish to attribute to those invisible flying elephants. It's sir John's pet parsimony which gets to decide which story is best when it comes time to choose between two equally good (predictive and applicable) stories. Parsimony lets the lean stories go and dines on the rest. ;) Contrast that to Procrustes who trims or stretches stories to fit regardless of how that affects them.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Such a generous expression! Having hypothesis and making observations does not magically render a topic "well within the realm of mainstream science"; when philosophers cannot agree on whether we have the language to coherently talk about self-consciousness, it is a remarkable piece of journalistic license to claim that the mystery is solved.Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
...workable scientific findings in both hypothesis and data.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
As long as we feel a need to ask "why" it's likely the mysteries will remain. Science just offers models, empirical testing and some criteria in selecting models where there is more than one available. It's the useful results (predictions) which make science attractive. Stories and idle conjecture don't offer those predictions and workable models. Say you want to know when the next five lunar eclipses will be visible where you live. What better to use than science? Not venturing beyond the "how would you know if, when, how much" type stuff here.Originally posted by Doug Peters:
...it is a remarkable piece of journalistic license to claim that the mystery is solved.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Well said! :)Science just offers models, empirical testing and some criteria in selecting models where there is more than one available.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
It's unanimous! (Quick; close the thread -- it'll never happen again ;) )Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
Well said! :)Science just offers models, empirical testing and some criteria in selecting models where there is more than one available.
Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
All right, this thread's gotten so long that I've almost forgotten my initial ire at Mr. Kaufman's rather boorish comments about the "gullibility of most people", and "people [who] believe crap like this."
Anyway, I AM thankful for some considerate and civil dialogue along the way, not to mention a few fine humourous touches!
But I can't leave without addressing this from JT:
"In the Rosenheim case of 1967 [6], Dr. Friedbert Karger was one of two physicists from the Max Planck Institute who helped to investigate perhaps the most validated poltergeist case in recorded history. Annemarie Schneider, a 19-year-old secretary in a law firm in Rosenheim (a small town in southern Germany) was seemingly the unwitting cause of much chaos in the firm, including disruption of electricity and telephone lines, the rotation of a picture, swinging lamps which were captured on video (which was one of the first times any poltergeist activity has been captured on film), and strange sounds that sounded electrical in origin were recorded. Fraud was not proven despite intensive investigation by the physicists, journalists, and the police. The effects moved with the young woman when she changed jobs until they finally faded out.
Friedbert Karger's whole perspective on physics changed after investigating the events. "These experiments were really a challenge to physics," Karger says today. "What we saw in the Rosenheim case could be 100 per cent shown not to be explainable by known physics."
Dr. Karger believes, "Man's journey does not end with his physical death, but will continue in a world of different substance." Reflecting on his own personal experience, Dr. Karger says, "I have found out over 30 years of research into paraphysical phenomena, that almost everything speaks for the probability of an existing world of different substance invisible to the modern average person."
Take it from here if you will!
Anyway, I AM thankful for some considerate and civil dialogue along the way, not to mention a few fine humourous touches!
But I can't leave without addressing this from JT:
I believe that was a sincere request. So, allow me to suggest the work of Dr. Friedbert Karger, internationally renowned plasmaphysicist with the Max Planck Institute in Munich, Germany.Please do let us know if you find any unusual and reliable sources of insight or even perspective.
"In the Rosenheim case of 1967 [6], Dr. Friedbert Karger was one of two physicists from the Max Planck Institute who helped to investigate perhaps the most validated poltergeist case in recorded history. Annemarie Schneider, a 19-year-old secretary in a law firm in Rosenheim (a small town in southern Germany) was seemingly the unwitting cause of much chaos in the firm, including disruption of electricity and telephone lines, the rotation of a picture, swinging lamps which were captured on video (which was one of the first times any poltergeist activity has been captured on film), and strange sounds that sounded electrical in origin were recorded. Fraud was not proven despite intensive investigation by the physicists, journalists, and the police. The effects moved with the young woman when she changed jobs until they finally faded out.
Friedbert Karger's whole perspective on physics changed after investigating the events. "These experiments were really a challenge to physics," Karger says today. "What we saw in the Rosenheim case could be 100 per cent shown not to be explainable by known physics."
Dr. Karger believes, "Man's journey does not end with his physical death, but will continue in a world of different substance." Reflecting on his own personal experience, Dr. Karger says, "I have found out over 30 years of research into paraphysical phenomena, that almost everything speaks for the probability of an existing world of different substance invisible to the modern average person."
Take it from here if you will!
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
You may think my comments are "boorish," but I still think it's all a load of crap.
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Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?
Quote: "Friedbert Karger's whole perspective on physics changed after investigating the events. 'These experiments were really a challenge to physics,' Karger says today. 'What we saw in the Rosenheim case could be 100 per cent shown not to be explainable by known physics.' "
Absolutely correct because it is highly likely that the activity Dr. Karger saw was the result of human artifice not "unknown physics."
History is filled with intellgent, well-intentioned scientists being fooled by "ordinary" people. This story is only evidence about a scientist who thinks he can't be fooled. I've worked for several Nobel laureates over the years and when it comes to magic they're just as easy to fool as anyone.
Absolutely correct because it is highly likely that the activity Dr. Karger saw was the result of human artifice not "unknown physics."
History is filled with intellgent, well-intentioned scientists being fooled by "ordinary" people. This story is only evidence about a scientist who thinks he can't be fooled. I've worked for several Nobel laureates over the years and when it comes to magic they're just as easy to fool as anyone.