Cups, cups, cups

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 26th, 2005, 4:50 pm

Originally posted by Jacob:

As to the right of the Paul Fox name our add states Paul Fox Style cups, the operative word being "style". We have already discussed this and will be discontinuing any use of the name all together in any type of combination as a noun or adjective.

I didn't think this would cause so much excitement.

The add on RNT2.com does not use the word style anywhere in it.

Here is the description from the web sight.

The Next Generation PF CUPS BY RNT2
2nd Run in Stainless Near Completion

Available in stainless steel, copper, brass and precious metals. The most sought after cups of the 20th century are the cups that were designed by Paul Fox. The early PF cups were originally produced by Danny Dew and were made by three different machinists, the last of which were the crew at the original Rings and Things Magic in St. Louis, Missouri. This information has been known only to a few people on the "inside" of the cups and balls industry until just recently. So, it is only appropriate that the latest version of this style of cup be produced by the same people. We are now the new Registrar of the PF Logo.

The cups in the photo are the 3rd Generation PF Style Cups made by RnT II Magic Co. The first is in stainless steel, a material never before used for the PF Cups. Also availabe will be brass, copper and precious metals.

They are supplied with a pocket-sized instruction booklet, crocheted balls and an attractive double plush tassled drawstring bag that also serves as a close-up pad.


ONLY 20 OF 25 SETS REMAIN! When THEY ARE GONE NO MORE STAINLESS WILL BE MADE!

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Terry_Holley » September 26th, 2005, 7:23 pm

Mr. Farnsworthy:

If you read the ad again you will see that the word "style" is included:

"The cups in the photo are the 3rd Generation PF Style Cups made by RnT II Magic Co. The first is in stainless steel, a material never before used for the PF Cups. Also availabe will be brass, copper and precious metals." (bold mine)

Terry

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Mad Jake » September 26th, 2005, 9:34 pm

Mr. Farnsworthy,
it seems you only have two posts on Genii, both pertaining to RNT II. We officially knight you RNT II watchman for the rest of your natural life.

Yawwwn.... :sleep:

Guest

Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 27th, 2005, 6:24 am

Originally posted by Jacob:
Richard,
first off you know nothing of the agreement of sale. Mr. Brazill seems to have tried to pull this stunt before with the original RNT when he and I had discussions. As to the right of the Paul Fox name our add states Paul Fox Style cups, the operative word being "style". We have already discussed this and will be discontinuing any use of the name all together in any type of combination as a noun or adjective.

As to Mr. Brazill, again you have heard his side the same story told to everyone. However other investors that believed in RNT II when the Brazills had the company know exactly what is going on. Mr. Brazill's actions and story telling will eventually catch up with him. I don't need to air anything out here.

Bottom line, those who want the product will buy, those who want the politics and to be part of the bandwagon clan will stay away from us.

As to Mr. Loomis' posts, very unprofessional. Our accountant shows that the order was paid for in August. A new check was already dispateched for the purchase. RNT II pays their bills and to take a cheap shot like that in public just goes to the business character of the poster.

I've defended the company and I think I have answered questions fairly and honestly, our clients feel comfortable with us and have seen the company grow tremendously after the purchase of the near bankrupt RNT II. We will continue on with our business. I recommend everyone just do the same. I will not be replying to anymore posts as it is not serving any purpose but to give the "bandwangoneers" more to fabricate from a one-sided hearsay story woven by Mr. Brazill.

Everyone, get on with your buisiness. Those who have stood by us, RNT II thanks you. Those who oppose us, thank you as well, you have given alot of insight of one sided politics involved in this business and have given us a lot of research material to analyze.

The best to everyone and God Bless.
Thought you're not replying anymore?

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Matthew Field
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Matthew Field » September 27th, 2005, 7:02 am

For pity's sake, shut this one down.

Matt Field

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 27th, 2005, 7:48 am

Matt, you really think we should close this thread? I'm enjoying watching Jacob make my point so well. :)
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 27th, 2005, 9:40 am

:D :D :D :D :D
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Guest

Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 27th, 2005, 11:04 am

Hello,
my name is Marcella Zimmerman, for those of you who do not know me I am the President/CEO of RNT II Magic Inc., the company which I purchased from the Brazills and legally recognized as such purchase by the Brazills and the state of Va.

While Jake has acted as a consultant and voice for the company I feel that both Jake and RNT II Magic has taken enough brutality from what appears to be a group of gossiping unprofessionals.

Mr. Brazill sold RNT II as the company was at the brink of bankrupcty. With quite a bit of work the company was revived, debts paid and the company has flourished. What appears to be happening is now that Mr. Brazill's broken toy when he had it has now been repaired he is resentful. When the company was sold there was an unpaid debt of over 12,336.00 due our engraving company for services supplied to RNT II which were never paid and the debt had to be absorbed by the company.

Mr Brazill agreed to turn over all assets per the contract of sale and failed to do so, in the intrim, Mr Brazill sold off property belonging to the RNT II Corporation after sale, sales which included forged certificates of authenticty. I can say this with out libel or slander as our attorney has in their posession documented proof of these transactions. I make this post as a message to people who are approached with such products as these are listed with the authorities and our attorney as stolen corporate property. The forged COA's that Mr Brazill is providing people are not from RNT II and is also bein investigated by the authorities. Mr Brazill is also selling cups which belong to RNT II Magic Inc where there are dimples in the bottoms of the cups. These cups where dimpled to mark themm as unsellable.

I will not stand by and have my name or the companys name slandered or bashed by these groups any longer. Any legal questions or complaints can be directed to our attorney and since all of you seem to know so much about the actions and internal operations of RNT II Magic, Inc. you must already know who our attorney is.

On a personal note and in my opinion only, I would suggest how close you stand next to Mr. Brazill he doesn't seem to care who he cheats or sells property that is not his to. Knowingly purchasing products of RNT II Magic Inc. from Mr. Brazill that have been produced after 1/5/05 is now to be considered recieving stolen property and will be treated as such by myself and this company.

I have relieved Jake of his position of consultant and will leave him to his engineering work and his own business alike. Any questions or concerns may be directed to me directly or through our attorney.

Good Day.
Marcella Zimmerman
President/CEO
RNT II Magic, Inc.

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Bob Walder » September 28th, 2005, 2:26 am

Marcie - you go girl!

From a collector's/consumer's point of view, I can only say that I have had nothing but pleasant dealings with RNT II. On the couple of occasions where they have slipped up on quality issues with me, both Jacob and Marcie have bent over backwards to put things right.

On the incorrectly made PF cups issue - sounds like everyone has received or will receive a new set of cups, correctly manufactured, without prompting (in some cases) and in ADDITION to the original cups - sounds like a sweet deal to me!

On the seconds issue - always a dicey business selling seconds - always the risk of people who purchased original items being peeved if they consider the flaws are small enough to be overlooked. But we've all seen this before - buying seconds is a lottery. If you are happy with the quality of the originals, leave it at that.

Maybe a company which is trying to make a name by producing top quality merchandise should reconsider selling seconds at all, but that is a corporate decision for Marcie to make (I think Jim Riser's solution is a good one - keep all the seconds and offer them gratis at regular intervals to poor/young/deserving magicians who cannot afford full prices for quality gear - nice solution!)

On the rest of the points raised, sounds like a lot of second or third hand gossip is being traded...

Guest

Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 28th, 2005, 6:48 am

As I have posted all along, my business dealings with RNT2 have been VERY professionally managed. The business has been conducted with honesty and integrity. There have been no "handshake deals", and at the insistance of the Jake and Marcella, my attorney (of course at my expense) had to draft a written agreement giving permission for RNT2 to use my trademark. This not only protects my interests, but also those of RNT2. This is the PROPER way to do business.

For those who have criticized RNT2 for "shady" business deals, I suggest you carefully consider the source. RNT2 has been up front, honest, and very professional with me--and have been pleased thus far. You will notice several other manufacturers, like Jim Sisti and Ickle Pickle products feel similarly.

I am very proud of my cups, and the folks at RNT2 know that my trust in them to manufacture the cups correctly, with the utmost precision and care is invaluable.

If you liked the JESmagic Squatty Cups before...don't blink...the best is yet to come! And for those with any concerns--rest assured that I am working DIRECTLY with RNT2 (as I did with my previous spinning company) to produce by far the best Squatty Cups to date.

Regards,
Jonathan Schweid, M.D.

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 28th, 2005, 11:38 am

RNT II is a great name with a great heritage. I think they should do all they can to promote thier own name. To confuse people with the use of Paul Fox diminishes their own RNT II identity.
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Scott Fridinger » September 28th, 2005, 2:38 pm

I really can't believe that the Paul Fox name can make people so angry. If the add said Paul Fox "style" how is that any different than saying "A next generation version of a Vernon Classic..."

As a consumer, I don't think I will ever buy anything with the Paul Fox name, because when I do I will hear that so and so didn't have the right or that is a knockoff... To bad, seems like the originals where nice.

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 28th, 2005, 4:25 pm

Paul Fox had a great eye for shapes and a great mind for magic. What he created was outstanding magic with beautiful props made to a standard well above most makers of his time.

Sadly there have be Knock Off's and most have not been of a standard he would have approved of. Some would.

It would be a shame for what he created to be lost to new generations of magicians.

That, and his reputation, are what his family wants to continue. They want to "polish" the tarnish off those products and people that did his name wrong.

It's that simple.

We (Joe Porper and I) have proven to the family that we can produce the items faithfully and to the standards expected. That is why they have granted us a licencing agreement to make certain items Paul Fox created.

It has been some time since this agreement was reached. Some have asked "why aren't the products ready?"

Simply because they require extensive tooling, research and expense. We are working on several items and when they are ready will be released.

But we will not release anything that is not up to the highest standard.
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Guest

Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 28th, 2005, 5:07 pm

In today's mail, I received the checks from RNT II for the books I shipped out to them on June 10th. When the check clears (and I'm not suggesting that it won't) I'll consider the matter closed. Thank you, Jacob and Marcella.

It is most unfortunate that the Idaho Idiot tarnished the Paul Fox name. I never met Paul Fox, but I did have the occasional to visit with Danny Dew a couple of times when I was performing in Arizona. He was a gentleman and the items I purchased from him were first class.

I'm sure that Pete Biro and Joe Porper will help to restore the Paul Fox image.

It could be confusing, though, since RNT II, Biro and Porper, and Mike Brazill all seem to feel that they have a legitimate claim to the Paul Fox name.

Denny Loomis

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 28th, 2005, 6:28 pm

The only person(s) that have a real right to the Paul Fox name are his heirs. PERIOD.

It is they that can grant a licence to use the name.
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 28th, 2005, 6:37 pm

Pete is correct. He and Joe Porper have a signed license from the Paul Fox estate giving them the sole ability to use Paul Fox's name in the marketing of magic. Anyone else who's using Paul Fox's name is doing so in violation of that agreement.
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Mark Collier » September 28th, 2005, 7:42 pm

I can see why the Fox heirs decided to go with Pete Biro and Joe Porper. They both have demonstrated a high level of integrity and Joe Porper is a world class machinist that is clearly capable of meeting the most exacting standards.

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Terry_Holley » September 28th, 2005, 7:59 pm

Even though in an earlier post I pointed out to Mr. Farnsworthy that the RnT2 ad copy did contain the word "style," I was by no means stating agreement with the use of "PF" or "Paul Fox" in the ad. I was merely attempting to point out Mr. Farnsworthy's oversight in the interest of fairness.

Being friends with both Danny and Melba Dew as well as the daughter of Paul Fox leads me to wholeheartedly agree with Pete and Richard regarding the use of the Paul Fox name.

I look forward to the release of the new line of items for a new generation of magicians.

Terry

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 28th, 2005, 8:23 pm

Many thanks for the kind words--and support. We are in no rush and when we do release material it will be to the highest possible standards, to which Paul Fox was known for.
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 28th, 2005, 8:24 pm

By the Way... Porper has produced a limited number of his famous card clips with engraved images of Dai Vernon. These were produced in conjunction with Bill Bowers for the Magic Castle's "Vernon Bash."

For a look, go to www.porperoriginals.com
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Bill Palmer » September 29th, 2005, 2:04 am

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
On the incorrectly made PF cups issue - sounds like everyone has received or will receive a new set of cups, correctly manufactured, without prompting (in some cases) and in ADDITION to the original cups - sounds like a sweet deal to me!
I purchased one of the first sets of these cups. I have not yet been offered nor received a set of correctly made PF cups from RnT II.

However, I did receive the aluminum mini Don Chop Cup in this morning's mail.

Thanks, Jake.
Bill Palmer, MIMC

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Bob Walder » September 29th, 2005, 3:21 am

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
Originally posted by Bob Walder:
[b] On the incorrectly made PF cups issue - sounds like everyone has received or will receive a new set of cups, correctly manufactured, without prompting (in some cases) and in ADDITION to the original cups - sounds like a sweet deal to me!
I purchased one of the first sets of these cups. I have not yet been offered nor received a set of correctly made PF cups from RnT II.

However, I did receive the aluminum mini Don Chop Cup in this morning's mail.

Thanks, Jake. [/b]
Well the way I read it, Jake has already addressed this in an earlier post.

And regarding the PF issue, whilst I do not condone anyone calling their cups "Paul Fox Cups", I don't see how "Paul Fox style" harms anything.

Jeez.... keep on getting that pedantic and you start to sound like Buzbee

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 29th, 2005, 8:11 am

I am glad to see some people supporting RNT2...I think they make a great product. Love my cups from them.

Mr. Walder, I agree...all the nonsense over the Paul Fox name. I see no reason why people manufacturing cups cannot call the cups Paul Fox "style". People know Paul Fox Cups because of the shape. There cannot be any more Paul Fox Cups made--as Danny Dew--the original maker of the cups has passed away. Even though Pete Biro and Joe Porper have a license from the Paul Fox family to use the name... Paul Fox himself, is dead-- as is Danny Dew. So if they ever do release a new set of cups...I don't think that they can call them Paul Fox cups either, without differentiating them from the originals. Heck, Busby all but destroyed the original tooling blocks anyway if I'm not mistaken.

Like I said earlier...only those who are lucky enough to have purchased Paul Fox items from either Paul Fox or Danny Dew (or purchased them second hand from someone who did) can say that they actually authentic Paul Fox items. The rest of us are out of luck!
Brandon

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 29th, 2005, 10:01 am

Right... it is the maker that makes them collector's items. Penguin (and others) have pinched the design.

However, if a performer, not a collector, wants a cup that is perfectly balanced and designed and the Paul Fox (design) is what they want, and Joe Porper's expertise in precision manufacturing can make that cup to the same specifications, then the performer will buy it.
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Jim Riser » September 29th, 2005, 10:24 am

Re: Importance of the Paul Fox name

Branding.

It is not a "Xerox copy" unless it was made with a Xerox machine. Until then, it is a photocopy.

It is not a "Kleenex" unless it came from a Kleenex box. If not, it is a facial tissue.

It is not a Paul Fox item unless made by a licensed Paul Fox maker.

When Donald Trump had to sell off his portion of the "Taj" in Atlantic City, the creditors insited that they use the Trump name.

Ask Martha Stewart what her name is worth.

The Paul Fox name was associated with quality in both design, business ethics, and product. This is important branding and the name represents the family, as well as, the product. The name IS important. I also feel (this is an opinion) that the PF logo should be returned to the Paul Fox estate so the name and logo can again be together. Anything less is a disservice to magic (another opinion).

I'll bet if I started making and advertising "RNT2 Style" cups, there would be a noise made (another opinion).

Branding is important in business (fact). Businesses spend fortunes establishing their brands and these businesses do not want their brand names sullied with inferior products or even confusion. This is why the Paul Fox name is important and should be joined with the PF logo/trademark controlled by the family (opinion - part of my free speech rights).

Jim

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Bill Palmer » September 29th, 2005, 11:38 am

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
[b]
Originally posted by Bob Walder:
[b] On the incorrectly made PF cups issue - sounds like everyone has received or will receive a new set of cups, correctly manufactured, without prompting (in some cases) and in ADDITION to the original cups - sounds like a sweet deal to me!
I purchased one of the first sets of these cups. I have not yet been offered nor received a set of correctly made PF cups from RnT II.

However, I did receive the aluminum mini Don Chop Cup in this morning's mail.

Thanks, Jake. [/b]
Well the way I read it, Jake has already addressed this in an earlier post.
[/b]
Really?? I certainly can't find the reference.
Bill Palmer, MIMC

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Terry_Holley » September 29th, 2005, 12:21 pm

Originally posted by Jim Riser:
Re: Importance of the Paul Fox name

Branding.

It is not a "Xerox copy" unless it was made with a Xerox machine. Until then, it is a photocopy.

It is not a "Kleenex" unless it came from a Kleenex box. If not, it is a facial tissue.

It is not a Paul Fox item unless made by a licensed Paul Fox maker.

When Donald Trump had to sell off his portion of the "Taj" in Atlantic City, the creditors insited that they use the Trump name.

Ask Martha Stewart what her name is worth.

The Paul Fox name was associated with quality in both design, business ethics, and product. This is important branding and the name represents the family, as well as, the product. The name IS important. I also feel (this is an opinion) that the PF logo should be returned to the Paul Fox estate so the name and logo can again be together. Anything less is a disservice to magic (another opinion).

I'll bet if I started making and advertising "RNT2 Style" cups, there would be a noise made (another opinion).

Branding is important in business (fact). Businesses spend fortunes establishing their brands and these businesses do not want their brand names sullied with inferior products or even confusion. This is why the Paul Fox name is important and should be joined with the PF logo/trademark controlled by the family (opinion - part of my free speech rights).

Jim
Well said, Jim. If the name is not that important, why are manufacturers using it to describe their cups?

Terry

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Richard Hatch » September 29th, 2005, 12:48 pm

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
Really?? I certainly can't find the reference.
Bill, I think Bob is refering to Jacob's earlier reply to you when he said the following:
Originally posted by Jacob:
In the past post here I mentioned the few that did email were told another set was going to be sent, on the other hand the people that did not were in for a pleasant suprise. We are just going to mail them out to the people with no notice. So dont' feel left out Bill...
As I read that, they plan to send everyone who purchased the original sets (yourself included) replacement sets, whether they asked for them or not...

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Bill Palmer » September 29th, 2005, 5:03 pm

Originally posted by MagicFan440:
I am glad to see some people supporting RNT2...I think they make a great product. Love my cups from them.

Mr. Walder, I agree...all the nonsense over the Paul Fox name. I see no reason why people manufacturing cups cannot call the cups Paul Fox "style". People know Paul Fox Cups because of the shape. There cannot be any more Paul Fox Cups made--as Danny Dew--the original maker of the cups has passed away. Even though Pete Biro and Joe Porper have a license from the Paul Fox family to use the name... Paul Fox himself, is dead-- as is Danny Dew. So if they ever do release a new set of cups...I don't think that they can call them Paul Fox cups either, without differentiating them from the originals. Heck, Busby all but destroyed the original tooling blocks anyway if I'm not mistaken.

Like I said earlier...only those who are lucky enough to have purchased Paul Fox items from either Paul Fox or Danny Dew (or purchased them second hand from someone who did) can say that they actually authentic Paul Fox items. The rest of us are out of luck!
Brandon
Brandon:

This is not true at all. First of all, Danny Dew did not spin the Paul Fox cups, bowls and salt gimmicks. These were done for him by outside contractors. Considering that when Mike Brazill was with Rings and Things, he produced 100 sets of cups for Danny Dew, and these are just as much Paul Fox cups as those produced by Marshall and Perigee. Not only that, there were at least two different sets of PF/DD type two blocks. I can tell this by looking at the insides of my cups. You can see characteristics of the blocks where the metal was formed around them. There may have been more than that. I know that Rings and Things generally did not use wooden blocks for their cups. There was also an aluminum set that Rings and Things made that Danny decided he did not want to produce, because it did not have the typical PF/DD cup shape. I have the prototype of that cup in my collection.

Using modern technology, a person can take a spun metal product to certain places, and they can duplicate the original block that was used to create it.

If the Paul Fox estate wants to have the products issued again, it would be very simple to reissue either the Marshall versions, the Perigee versions or the Rings and Things versions. It would be very difficult to tell them from the originals.

I am not particularly fond of Buzzbee, but at least he had the good sense to mark most of his cups. Otherwise, the spun ones he made would be difficult to differentiate from the cups made by Perigee.

Incidentally, after Rings and Things made the run of 100 sets for Danny, he decided he needed some more cups. This occurred after Rings and Things had dissolved. So he went back to Perigee and had 46 sets made. A photocopy of the receipt is on Jim Riser's web site.

I had posted the information that Rings and Things had made the last sets. This was incorrect. The Perigee cups from 1981 were the last sets. This information has been corrected on my web site.
Bill Palmer, MIMC

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 29th, 2005, 5:24 pm

I think it's in bad taste to label something "In the Paul Fox Style." And, I doubt if its legal, anyway.

If you want to find out, advertise a show with a "Mickey Mouse Style Cartoon Character." I think that Disney's attorneys will be all over you in short order.

It's amazing to hear Jim Riser and Bill Palmer discuss the History of the Paul Fox Cups. They are magical scholars of the highest order.

Denny Loomis

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 29th, 2005, 6:00 pm

Bill--
My point being that Danny Dew was alive to have the cups made. I can think of hundreds of companies who contract other businesses to make parts--or even in instances a whole item--only to market sell it themselves. Danny Dew played an important role in the manufacturing of the cups. He polished the sets...which made him directly part of the process--no matter who made them. In my opinion, the only REAL Paul Fox cups are the ones that were PRODUCED by Danny Dew. All the rest are Fox like. I don't own a set...unfortunately, but would love to.

Secondly, my understanding is that the PF logo was never used by Danny Dew or Paul Fox himself...but it was a Busby creation (perhaps even when working with Danny Dew). Only Busby's cups have the PF logo in them. The logo does not mean anything. I have looked at the USPTO website...in no place is the PF logo associated with the name Paul Fox. So in fact, by itself, it means NOTHING.

To address Jim Riser's comments--
Yes, I agree with your description. But when terms become so commonplace, they actually begin to describe a particular product.
Example...IBM compatable computer

The Paul Fox name is not trademarked with any particular product-- unlike Xerox, and Kleenex...so in all good terms, if I wanted to produce Paul Fox cups, I could. Not that I would (too much aggrevation). I see no problem, however, if someone is producing a similar product and calls it "Paul Fox style" You see copies and replicas of items all the time--and as long as you are not asserting that the product being sold IS the original, you are within your legal rights. Look at a guitar shaped like a Fender stratocaster...or listen to the Eddie Van Halen "Brown sound" which several musicians use. In order to prevent others from using the Paul Fox name with the cups...one would have to file a trademark for the name...then use it in commerce to describe "a set of three copper cups with x-by-x-by-x dimensions made of...whatever...with two central rings that serve x purpose....yada yada yada. Even then, it would be tough to stop people from using the "Fox like" descriptions. My brother is a patent attorney...I discussed the matter with him.

I have seen no one bash the Johnson cups, when they were advertised having the "Paul Fox Style"...heck...I have seen no one complain about Penguin cups when they advertised a Paul Fox style cup. So why is it such a big deal here?

In my opinion, I commend RNT2 for taking the Paul Fox name out of the advertisement so that Pete Biro and Joe Porper can use the name. Let Pete and Joe revive the name in the manner it should be...and if they ever make cups, let me know, I'd love a set. But they are not making Paul Fox Cups....they are reissuing Paul Fox cups.
Regards,
Brandon

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magicam
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby magicam » September 29th, 2005, 6:36 pm

Pepka wrote:
And a word to MagicFan. Richard isn't a jerk. But if he were, this is his house and he has every right. Also has the right to kick your butt off of here.
Since the pot is being stirred here, Ill opine that RK does not have the right to be a jerk just because he owns the site. Thats not to say that in practice Richard couldnt do that just that I dont think that having the power equates with having the right. The good news is that this is largely a moot point, as in my perusals of GF, Ive found that RK almost always exercises a light touch when it comes to the opportunity to be heavy-handed or to act like a tyrant. In my case, he kicked me off the forum but then graciously allowed me to rejoin, and this despite the fact that my first post under my current moniker criticized him for what I thought was unfair treatment.

Clay Shevlin

Terry_Holley
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Terry_Holley » September 29th, 2005, 8:42 pm

Brandon:

You wrote the following:

"In my opinion, the only REAL Paul Fox cups are the ones that were PRODUCED by Danny Dew. All the rest are Fox like."

and...

"Secondly, my understanding is that the PF logo was never used by Danny Dew or Paul Fox himself...but it was a Busby creation (perhaps even when working with Danny Dew)."

My questions are:

1)What would you consider the cups produced by Paul Fox prior to Danny Dew's production?

and...

2) How did you come to your understanding about the creation and use of the Paul Fox logo (Reverse P, forward F)?

Terry

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby brownbeauty » September 29th, 2005, 9:24 pm

I thought I would add to the PF discussion by showing a piece of Paul Fox Stationary that his daughter (Margaret Fox Mandel) was kind enough to send me. The front of the stationary has the Paul Fox Letterhead and the reverse side at the bottom on all of this style stationary has a reverse P and a forward F.

Rudy

Paul Fox Stationary

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Terry_Holley » September 29th, 2005, 10:07 pm

That doocumentation exists (stationary, etc.) from the pre-Busby Fox/Dew era was one of the reasons for question #2 in my above post!

Terry

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Pete Biro
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Pete Biro » September 29th, 2005, 11:29 pm

Rudy... you beat me to it, I was going to post the PF logo, but you did it, thanks. pb
Stay tooned.

Bob Walder
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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Bob Walder » September 30th, 2005, 2:38 am

Brandon - you are talking sense

Others are getting too pedantic and too emotional

Who amongst us (esp in the UK, not sure if the term was used as widely in the US) does not own a Hoover rather than a vacuum cleaner? Even if it is made by Dyson, Panasonic, et al - or even Hoover....

There is nothing wrong with saying something has been manufactueed "in the style of X" as long as you don't actually try to pass it off as X, IMHO

As a consumer, I am not an idiot. I won't be taken in by it.

This entire thread is about people who have acquired a license, are too slow bringing things to market, and are now trying to protect their perceived "marketing edge".

And I say that with the greatest respect Pete - you and I have had enough friendly exchanges/dealings in the past and I am not getting at you personally here.

But let's not try and make out we are protecting PF's family/estate here, please.....

Guest

Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 30th, 2005, 3:27 am

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
Who amongst us (esp in the UK, not sure if the term was used as widely in the US) does not own a Hoover rather than a vacuum cleaner? Even if it is made by Dyson, Panasonic, et al - or even Hoover....
We also refer to a ball point pen as a biro, over here. Note to self - sue Pete Biro for having a surname which infringes on etc etc

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
There is nothing wrong with saying something has been manufactueed "in the style of X" as long as you don't actually try to pass it off as X, IMHO
Some people would disagree. Try marketing a wine as "manufactured in the same way as Champagne". Or even advertising a wine as being "people preferred it to Champagne in a taste test". Either instance has the winemakers of Champagne slapping lawsuits on people.

Not that I'm agreeing with such action, you understand. I think that either quoted remark (which I quote from memory, not verbatim) is perfectly reasonable. But my opinion, of course, is nothing to do with what the law accepts.

Dave

Guest

Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 30th, 2005, 5:29 am

Mr. Le Fevre, I'm not sure that your comparison to French wine applies--since I happen to be part owner of a wine store. I have people buy Californian "Champagne" everyday--or at least that's what they ask for.

As for the PF logo my mistake about the earlier usage--I've never seen the logo used other than on the cups, so thank you for pointing that out.

Nevertheless, whether used prior to Danny Dew/Busby or not, the only one who actually LICENSED the trademark logo was Busby. Otherwise it was just an interesting conception. My point is that the PF logo does is not indicative of original Paul Fox cups. The only thing it has ever been attributed to being is a backwards P and F--if you look at the USPTO website. This is very different from the Coca Cola logo!

Secondly, Mr. Holly, I got a lot of my info about the Fox Cups from Jim Riser's site--whom all of you have the utmost regard. If you read his commentary on Pre-Danny Dew Paul Fox cups...he questions the validity of such claims. I have spoken with a couple of other friends of mine--one of whome knew Danny Dew who confirmed this. My understanding...Paul Fox conceptualized and designed the cups, but it was Danny Dew who actually made them (or should I say, had them made). If pre-Danny Dew cups do exist...does anyone have a picture and a way to prove it? Perhaps Paul Fox had some prototypes...who knows--and yes obviously those would be Paul Fox cups

Again, from the standpoint of a consumer...I could buy a 2005 Ford Mustang GT... nice car-- but what car collector is going to even consider purchasing it--most will want the style from 30 years ago. Equally, Paul Fox Cups are the cups made when Paul Fox and Danny Dew were alive. They have not been made in years...hence anyone making them now will be reissuing them. It was Paul Fox and Danny Dew themselves that made the cups special.

If someone wants to make "Paul Fox Style Cups" as long as they are not trying to pass them off as originals.....what difference does it really make?
Brandon

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Re: Cups, cups, cups

Postby Guest » September 30th, 2005, 6:29 am

Originally posted by MagicFan440:
Mr. Le Fevre, I'm not sure that your comparison to French wine applies--since I happen to be part owner of a wine store. I have people buy Californian "Champagne" everyday--or at least that's what they ask for.
You know far far more about the subject than I do.

However, if your store was within the EEC, and if you advertised "Californian Champagne", I think you'd have a serious legal problem. But of course many laymen (in the wine sense) refer to most sparkling wines as Champagne.

Australian wineries used to label some dessert wines as Sauternes. And they couldn't be imported into Europe, because they weren't from Sauternes. So they stopped labelling them Sauternes.

The same seems to apply to all French cheeses, which are named after their place of origin. Not, however, to Cheddar. I've never found out why it doesn't apply to Cheddar.

Anyway, back to magic.....

Dave


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