MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

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Puggy
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MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Puggy » January 28th, 2014, 12:37 pm

Richard,
I have received my copy of the above magazine, Winter 2013 edition, you alerted your readers about several months ago for the article on Erdnase and his home in Montana.

Excellent article and I thank you for the alert. If any reader had any doubt about getting the Winter edition for the Erdnase, please correct all the Doubting Thomases.

The article is well worth the price. Interesting, the one issue about Erdnase cost $13 but a year's subscription cost $35. Go figure. So, I ordered a year's subscription.

Bob Poynter.
Subscriber for many, many years. Again Thanks

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Brad Jeffers » January 28th, 2014, 8:17 pm

Back issues are only $8.50 each.

Roger M.
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Roger M. » January 28th, 2014, 9:02 pm

Erdnase lived in Montana?

I'd heard simple conjecture as such, but unless I've missed a major development as related to a topic I follow extremely closely, we have no idea on earth who Erdnase actually was.

This of course, would make it quite difficult to say where he lived.

Although it makes for a great story, it definitely shouldn't be confused with factual information supported by appropriate documentation and research.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 28th, 2014, 11:07 pm

Roger M--have you read the latest article in the magazine by Marty Demarest? Perhaps Erdnase did live in Montana.
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Bill Mullins
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Bill Mullins » January 29th, 2014, 1:04 am

My copy of the magazine is on order, but I have yet to receive it. But I was fortunate to review an early draft of Marty's article. He covers much of the same ground that he did in his 2011 Genii article, but with more detail and tying it more closely to local Montana history. Marty's belief is that W. E. Sanders was Erdnase -- a debatable point to be sure, but one with much more evidence behind it than the case for Milton Franklin Andrews ever had (which was accepted as fact for many years). Given all his efforts in building the case with "factual information supported by appropriate documentation and research", it's hard to fault him if he states it as fact.

More than a century after the fact, the type of evidence which "proves" the case for Sanders (holographic letters, publishing contracts between the author and McKinney, etc.), or anyone else, probably won't be discovered. Even so, it's amazing to me that at this late date there are strong cases not only for Sanders, but for Hatch's candidate E. S. Andrews, and for other lesser (in my mind) candidates like M. F. Andrews, Karr's E. S. Andrews, Wiseman's H. L. Andrews, etc.

If you are an Erdnase enthusiast (like me), getting a copy of the magazine is a no-brainer. The fact that it's a good article by a good writer is bonus. Pick one up here.

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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Lisa Cousins » January 29th, 2014, 4:47 pm

Marty provided the Castle Library with a copy of this, and he certainly makes a compelling case in an enjoyable way. He does a perfectly fine job of making it clear that this is a great "unsolved mystery" of magic and that he is presenting a candidate. Since there's plenty of factual Montana history woven through his case for the candidate, I would imagine that all Montanans would find it of interest and possibly even feel Montanan pride about it.

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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Roger M. » January 29th, 2014, 5:50 pm

The leap of faith required to cause one to confirm their belief that Sanders was Erdnase may not be a wise one if a person is basing it on any of the current research.

It doesn't mean at all that Sanders couldn't be Erdnase, but there hasn't been anything factual or of substance to date that would indicate with any assurance that he was.

Anecdotes and massive leaps of faith don't equal solid research, and simply putting a deck of cards in the hands of one of the millions of Americans who owned decks of cards in the early 1900's doesn't do much other than confirm that millions of Americans played cards in the early 1900's.

I'm aware of all the arguments, and all the evidence as presented by the various researchers.....but none of the available research is substantial enough to state that Erdnase was Sanders.

(Sanders was a favorite candidate of mine before Marty or Genii printed anything about him, and he remains a favorite candidate of mine. But there's absolutely nothing on record to date that would indicate definitively or otherwise that he was Erdnase......I'd dearly love there to be, but if one is dealing in facts, and no matter how many times one writes an article using the same basic theory, there simply isn't).

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 29th, 2014, 10:22 pm

I think the fact that his initials W E SANDERS line up vertically on the triangular text on the title page is pretty interesting. It could be a coincidence, but it seems unlikely.
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Marty Demarest
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Marty Demarest » January 30th, 2014, 3:15 pm

Roger, in the spirit of your slightly pedantic posts, I'd like to point out that you are correct--S.W. Erdnase didn't live in Montana. Erdnase didn't live anywhere. S.W. Erdnase was not a living person.

But I think I understand the nature of your comments, and while I'm grateful that you've already read and fully digested the "Montana" article, I need to correct your implication that I claim anything about who Erdnase was. I don't. I try to keep a very open mind about the identity of the author of The Expert at the Card Table. I'm willing to be convinced about any candidate--but only by evidence. And while, unlike you, I don't claim to know it all, I'm also familiar with the proposed candidates, as well as several that haven't been openly discussed. And I can say that years of my research into the various candidates--real butt-in-the-archives, boots-on-the-ground investigations--have yielded no candidate with as much compelling evidence as W.E. Sanders. Nothing even close.

The "Montana" article is both an attempt to marshal as much of the Sanders evidence as possible, and in the process to see how David Alexander and Richard Kyle's theory corresponds with historic facts. It is also an investigation into what the Sanders theory might tell us about The Expert at the Card Table. There isn't any overt declaration of Erdnase's identity--though if someone wants to come to a conclusion, I don't think it's "unwise." I think it's natural to make a decision based on a preponderance of evidence. Common sense does it all the time.

At the same time, oversimplifying evidence does nothing to clarify the situation. "Simply putting a deck of cards in the hands," is what Bill Mullins has been able to do with E.S. Andrews. I've not only been able to put a deck of cards in W.E. Sanders's hands, but I've put those hands in a majority of the games that The Expert discusses. (Including the only two games that the author explicitly claims to have played.) I've also put half a brick of cards in with Sanders's personal belongings for a camping trip. The extent and nature of Sanders's relationship to playing cards ranges from games to magic to personal possessions to law. Reducing complex arguments simply to make a point seems a bit misleading.

In any case, I'm glad that you and others have found the article, and that it has provoked a response. I'll be happy to answer questions and respond to comments, but I think I'll subsequently do that on the "Erdnase" thread.

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Joe Pecore
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Joe Pecore » January 30th, 2014, 3:45 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:Back issues are only $8.50 each.

+$7.95 for shipping and handling.
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Bill Mullins
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Bill Mullins » January 30th, 2014, 8:27 pm

Roger, you keep battling a straw man. If Marty (or anyone else) had ever said "I have absolute proof that Sanders is Erdnase", your posts would make sense. But no one is doing that.

Various people have laid out circumstantial evidence supporting various historical characters as the author. Some characters have stronger cases than others. That's all.

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Julie Eng
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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Julie Eng » January 30th, 2014, 9:17 pm

If you are interested in purchasing a back issue of the Winter 2013 Vol 63, No. 4, Tammy Ryan from subscriptions is a very helpful lady who suggests that you either email her or call her to place your order: Email tryan@mt.gov or Phone 406-444-4708.

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Re: MONTANA MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY

Postby Roger M. » January 31st, 2014, 1:54 am

*Edit*

Deleted a lengthy reply, not worth the bother.


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